I did bee math! (Now with more usability!)

[Milaha]

New Version! No new functionality, but a lot of usability improvements. Thanks to MilConDion and the rest of the wiki team the base values are now listed on the wiki. MilConDion was further kind enough to generate a nice table of all the bees so that I could integrate lookup functionality into the spreadsheet. The old method to determine this from the in-game database is on a separate fully protected sheet just in case at some later point an update changes the values and I am no longer maintaining this. You can only use that by making your own copy of the spreadsheet though since it should not be needed right now. I also added a link directly to the wiki page for the bee you are looking up in case you need to find breeding or other information.

Now with more usability!

EDIT: The increased usability has brought in more users which also aparently means more people changing things that they should not. The spreadsheet is now in fully locked mode, you will need to make your own personal copy to use it. This will likely require a google account. It may or may not work as an excel download as well, I honestly do not know since I do not use it.

Spoiler: Old post requesting info

EDIT: All info found, now working on pulling it together and adding calculation. Big thanks to Ripley and ex13 for being super-awesome!

So, the title is pretty self explanatory. I want to optimize how many of various frames i should use in my alveary (and other types of problems). The problem I have is that I am not able to track down any of the base numbers or how they interact. If anyone has any of the following info, or knows where I might get it I would much appreciate it. I realize it may be secret for the sake of keeping the mystery, but it never hurts to ask, and I figured I would put out a general call in case I missed something before I actually asked people "in the know" directly.

What the chance of production of a product/specialty is. (or how to convert from the time given in the database to this chance).
What multipliers are provided by the various possible bee speeds on above number (timing showed all bee speeds operate on the same interval, leading me to believe production chance is affected).
Basic/addon frame production increases. The common explanation is that they stack additively, but my initial observations lead me to question this.

Same question on lifespan numbers, though here we have more complete info on the frames numbers and it does not seem to be at all random, so I could likely get the base numbers on the bees myself by test and regress if needed. (yes, I could do this with the above info as well, but I am not going to dump that much time into data collection on a highly random system).


What is already done (thanks for reading the questions!)
Mutation chance is given in most bee wikis, and all things that affect it seem to have the affect listed as well. Changes are applied multiplicatively.

example:

Apiary with 3x soul frames trying to breed a Imperial bee.

Base chance : 8%
Soul frames: 50% increase each.

maths: .08 * 1.5 * 1.5 * 1.5 = .08*1.5^3 = .27 = 27% chance of mutation.

Other numbers of interest:
Number of 1.5x multipliers to ensure mutation with 2% starting chance (lowest I have seen) = 10
Number of 1.5x multipliers to ensure mutation with 1% starting chance (future proofing) = 12

Final application: self-made nova frame in an alveary!
12x soul frames and 2x chocolate frames. Even longest life bees will die in one cycle, and mutation is ensured at 1%.

This leaves 2 slots for other things, but per a post by segnir a while back if you need to adapt an alveary with heaters/fans it wont cause a mutation, the bee must be in the right environment directly, this could have changed though, I am just now really diving into bees.

I apologize for any errors above, i did not proof read, I should really be working on other things, but wanted to get the call for info out there.

 

[noskk]

9 impregnated frames for maximum production of valuable bee (fast trait, haven't tried fastest, probably 8 for fastest), the rest is lower than that, and lifespan. doesn't really matter. and the maximum production is 27.5 sec/1 specialty and 27.5 sec/ 2 products.

 

[Milaha]

9 impregnated frames for maximum production of valuable bee (fast trait, haven't tried fastest, probably 8 for fastest), the rest is lower than that, and lifespan. doesn't really matter.. another hint, the maximum production is 27.5 sec/1 specialty and 27.5 sec/ 2 products.

Yes, I found the caps and 'bee tick' time as well, and finding that minimum number of basic frames is done via simple trial and error. I want to know how to best use X frame slots to maximize lifespan while keeping production speed maxed. If you are interested in keeping generations low (such as due to swarmer princesses) the maths is important. Sure you could do it via trial and error for each bee type, but I am a math guy.

 

[Ripley]

It's a taiwanese page but I found it very useful nonetheless: http://forum.gamer.com.tw/Co.php?bsn=18673&sn=325634

 

[noskk]

Yes, I found the caps and 'bee tick' time as well, and finding that minimum number of basic frames is done via simple trial and error. I want to know how to best use X frame slots to maximize lifespan while keeping production speed maxed. If you are interested in keeping generations low (such as due to swarmer princesses) the maths is important. Sure you could do it via trial and error for each bee type, but I am a math guy.

Lifespan doesn't matter, it's all depend on the chance of comb per bee tick (which is maximized with more frames you use in 1 alveary, but also limited to a number as said above), lifespan only give you more bee ticks before the bee is death. You still use swarmer? I don't quite understand why do you want to use hyphened princess, it's of course correct that you can calculate the math, but since you are using XBee, they are obsolete..since it's so easy to duplicate a bee with XBee machines..

 

[Milaha]

It's a taiwanese page but I found it very useful nonetheless: http://forum.gamer.com.tw/Co.php?bsn=18673&sn=325634

Thanks this included some numbers, as well as an alternative set of numbers for basic frames (as well as stating they stack multiplicitively).

Lifespan doesn't matter, it's all depend on the chance of comb per bee tick (which is maximized with more frames you use in 1 alveary), lifespan only give you more bee ticks before the bee is death. You still use swarmer? I don't quite understand why do you want to use hyphened princess, it's of course correct that you can calculate the math, but since you are using XBee, they are obsolete..since it's so easy to duplicate a bee with XBee machines..

It has always been absurdly easy to move the species/traits of a princess over to another existing set (I assume that is what you mean by "duplicate" despite it not creating a new bee). If you are using extra bees machines to do this kind of basic operation... you are doing it wrong (well maybe not wrong, but it is needlessly taking the high tech approach to a very simple low-tech problem). What I want to do is set up a *very* large farm. Sure, I could go out and find lots and lots of wild hives, or I could use some swarmers and optimize the alvearies for lifespan.





Still looking for a way to calculate base production chance of a product/specialty.

 

[noskk]

It's not basic operation, I just use it to the limit, if I want a pure breed, I first breed it with a pure bred drone with choco frames, and then inoculate the bee with the serum I want. Or I can automate it using 64 pure bred drones and cycle through it until the bee got the correct traits.

If you really want hive bees. just set a full quarry, I'm sure you will get a lot of rocky bees lol.

I'm just saying that the swarmer is pretty much obsolete, since you also need to search for this swarm hive and break it yourself. It's better to just invest once and forget about it.

 

[Milaha]

It's not basic operation, I just use it to the limit, if I want a pure breed, I first breed it with a pure breed drone with choco frames, and then inoculate the bee with the serum I want.

So what you are saying is that you use extra bees to do something entirely different than what we are talking about, and that is not basic. Awesome! Thanks for the clarification! Not sure why it applies to the conversation though. You seem confused.

If you really want hive bees. just set a full quarry, I'm sure you will get a lot of rocky bees lol.

When did they patch it so that quarries give princesses? Last time I used one they only gave drones. Interesting change. Either that or you are confused again. Regardless, I am not doing any auto-mining this game.

I'm just saying that the swarmer is pretty much obsolete, since you also need to search for this swarm hive and break it yourself. It's better to just invest once and forget about it.

Ahh I see, so this is about what you think is the 'best' option, and obviously everyone must do what you think is best. Here is a tip for you, what is 'best' is what is the most fun, not what gets you the most stuff in the least time.

Now, this thread was to ask for a specific set of information. You provided none of that information. I would like to return the thread to that topic as I am still interested in acquiring that information. You have made your case for why what I want to do is "wrong" please continue on your way.

 

[Serendipiteit]

I would like to ask a question as well. What happens to the production rate when a production rate is longer than a bee's lifespan? For example, my Diamond bee produces a Diamond comb every 2.5 hours, and even with Fastest that wouldd be around 1.3 hours. According to the website above, longest bee can survive ~30 minutes. Then I would guess that my diamond bee won't produce any specialty as it should die before hitting the 1.3 hour mark. But obviously this isn't true as I'm getting diamond combs..

 

[Milaha]

I would like to ask a question as well. What happens to the production rate when a production rate is longer than a bee's lifespan? For example, my Diamond bee produces a Diamond comb every 2.5 hours, and even with Fastest that wouldd be around 1.3 hours. According to the website above, longest bee can survive ~30 minutes. Then I would guess that my diamond bee won't produce any specialty as it should die before hitting the 1.3 hour mark. But obviously this isn't true as I'm getting diamond combs..

The time is a lie (or more accuratly an obfuscation), it represents an average time for a default bee to produce the product in a basic alveary.

How it actually works is that each 'bee tick' (each time the bee lifespan goes down, ~30 seconds and likely based on your servers tps) the bee has a chance to produce each of its products. If you get really (crazy) lucky you might get a diamond comb every 30 seconds out of a default bee in an unframed apiary. While if you get unlucky the next bee will give you none at all in an alveary. There is a point where you increase the chance to 100% with enough frames in an alveary and start getting products every time.

 

[Exedra]

http://mc.nessirojgaming.eu/bees/index.php?title=Main_Page

 

[Milaha]

http://mc.nessirojgaming.eu/bees/index.php?title=Main_Page

Yeah... that has exactly none of the information I requested unless I am either blind or it was added in the last 2 hours. (well, it has the correct info on basic frames that they each double the chance and stack multiplicitively, but that was already found) Thanks for trying to help though! If there is a page with the info I am looking for pointing me straight to it rather than the main page would be super awesome!

 

[MilConDoin]

When this thread manages to gather all the information you wanted, I'd like to add that info to the above mentioned bee breeding wiki and the official FTB wiki, with linking back to this thread. Is that OK with you, Milaha?

 

[Exedra]

I thought we weren't aloud to link to things on the wiki.

 

[MilConDoin]

AFAIK linking to FTB forum threads is allowed, since it is in the direct influence of the FTB team.

 

[ex13]

I've had a look at the Foresty code (the current version in Ultimate):

Spoiler

- Apiaries have a 0.1 speed modifier
- Alvearies have a 1.0 speed modifier
- each basic frame (untreated, impregnated, proven) doubles the speed modifier; the effects stack multiplicatively
The exact numbers for each product can be found on the previously linked page http://forum.gamer.com.tw/Co.php?bsn=18673&sn=325634
At each bee cycle, the bee have a chance to produce the product, e.g. for iron comb from the (normal speed) rusty bee the base chance is 5%, i.e. in an alveary with three frames thats 0.05 * 1.0 * 2^3 = 0.4 = 40%.
Additionally, the bee will produce (independently) a second comb with a half the base chance, so 5%/2 = 2.5%. This is rounded down to 2%. Then the usual multipliers apply, i.e. 0.02 * 1.0 * 2^8 = 0.16 = 16%. So, the bee can produce 2 combs (0.4 * 0.16 chance), 1 comb (0.4*0.84+0.6*0.16) or 0 combs (0.6*0.84 chance) each cycle.

Speed modifiers of the bee (slow, fast, etc.) can change the chance. The numbers are again given on the taiwanese page, though these are not up to date. Currently, faster give a multiplier of 1.4 (instead of 1.5), and fastest a multiplier of 1.7 (instead 2.0). So, a rusty bee with fastest trait in the same alveary as before has chances 0.4 * 1.7 = 68% and 0.16 * 1.7 = 27.2% (rounded up! to 28%) to produce the first and second iron comb.

Specialties are produced only once each cycle, the probability is computed similarly to the first comb.

Lifespan is given in cycles (i.e. 27.5s each cycle), e.g. 20 cycles or 9m 10s for shorter lifespan. The numbers can again be found on the taiwanese website. Frame multipliers again stack multiplicatively!

Edit: Changed some numbers because I missed an integer division.

 

[Adonis0]

So you know, mutator blocks are so so so so much more efficient than soul frames. for breeding bees
Soul frames give 1.5x multipliers to mutation chance.. but something like an ender pearl gives 2x, or eye of ender is 4x
you could even go for uranium 10x, or nether star 100%, but.. you're better off having two mutator blocks with uranium, or 5 mutator blocks with an eye of ender in each than a nether star.

 

[Milaha]

So you know, mutator blocks are so so so so much more efficient than soul frames. for breeding bees
Soul frames give 1.5x multipliers to mutation chance.. but something like an ender pearl gives 2x, or eye of ender is 4x
you could even go for uranium 10x, or nether star 100%, but.. you're better off having two mutator blocks with uranium, or 5 mutator blocks with an eye of ender in each than a nether star.

Well, depends on your version of efficient. A soul frame uses a lot less rare resources than ender pearls or uranium. It also lasts for many many breeding cycles instead of using a unit every single time, they also reduce lifespan as a bonus, speeding how fast you work. If you mean efficient in number of blocks used and thus cost in gold to make the frame housings (or diamonds for mutators), your right. By nearly any other metric though mutators are the wrong way to go.

I've had a look at the Foresty code (the current version in Ultimate):

Spoiler

- Apiaries have a 0.1 speed modifier
- Alvearies have a 1.0 speed modifier
- each basic frame (untreated, impregnated, proven) doubles the speed modifier; the effects stack multiplicatively
The exact numbers for each product can be found on the previously linked page http://forum.gamer.com.tw/Co.php?bsn=18673&sn=325634
At each bee cycle, the bee have a chance to produce the product, e.g. for iron comb from the (normal speed) rusty bee the base chance is 5%, i.e. in an alveary with three frames thats 0.05 * 1.0 * 2^3 = 0.4 = 40%.
Additionally, the bee will produce (independently) a second comb with a half the base chance, so 5%/2 = 2.5%. This is rounded down to 2%. Then the usual multipliers apply, i.e. 0.02 * 1.0 * 2^8 = 0.16 = 16%. So, the bee can produce 2 combs (0.4 * 0.16 chance), 1 comb (0.4*0.84+0.6*0.16) or 0 combs (0.6*0.84 chance) each cycle.

Speed modifiers of the bee (slow, fast, etc.) can change the chance. The numbers are again given on the taiwanese page, though these are not up to date. Currently, faster give a multiplier of 1.4 (instead of 1.5), and fastest a multiplier of 1.7 (instead 2.0). So, a rusty bee with fastest trait in the same alveary as before has chances 0.4 * 1.7 = 68% and 0.16 * 1.7 = 27.2% (rounded up! to 28%) to produce the first and second iron comb.

Specialties are produced only once each cycle, the probability is computed similarly to the first comb.

Lifespan is given in cycles (i.e. 27.5s each cycle), e.g. 20 cycles or 9m 10s for shorter lifespan. The numbers can again be found on the taiwanese website. Frame multipliers again stack multiplicatively!

Edit: Changed some numbers because I missed an integer division.

Thanks for looking in the code, you are seriously awesome! I am not sure how I missed those chances on the foreign page. I will chalk it up to tiredness and hard to read the page.


I now have all the info I need to make a solid go at this. I am probably going to set up some form of google doc spreadsheet to store and calculate all the info after some testing confirms a few things. I will be sure to make it public and share it as I hit major stages (just scraping the info in that table for the production chances looks like it might be a chore).

When this thread manages to gather all the information you wanted, I'd like to add that info to the above mentioned bee breeding wiki and the official FTB wiki, with linking back to this thread. Is that OK with you, Milaha?

Sounds just fine, no need to give me credit or link though, all I am doing is republishing other people's findings (tho I suppose others may want the link so they can get credit). I will update the thread as I scrape and confirm the info.

 

[snooder]

Well, depends on your version of efficient. A soul frame uses a lot less rare resources than ender pearls or uranium. It also lasts for many many breeding cycles instead of using a unit every single time, they also reduce lifespan as a bonus, speeding how fast you work. If you mean efficient in number of blocks used and thus cost in gold to make the frame housings (or diamonds for mutators), your right. By nearly any other metric though mutators are the wrong way to go.

Uranium can be made renewable through radioactive bees.

 

[Milaha]

Uranium can be made renewable through radioactive bees.

Indeed, but so can everything besides quartz and xy stuff I think. If "can be made renewable" makes every resource equal/infinite, then no item is more rare than any other and any talk of efficiency is irrelevant. I am looking at it from a perspective of how early and easily the resource can be gotten en masse, and what the benefits of the approach are. Personally I like to set up lava centrifuges, so the gold cost of the frame housings is not a big deal to me.