GregTech's changes and Ore Gen

[raiju]

While I fully support Gregtech, and think it's a great addon and plan to have it on the SMP I play for the foreseeable future, I don't like the idea of telling people they have to go into configs to change things. One of the great things about FTB is it just works out the box, all you have to do is download it and it's ready to go pretty much. Most of the people who go onto my SMP don't know there way around file navigation, they are fairly IT illiterate. Most don't know how to install texture packs even after having attempted it, for example.

With this in mind, would it be a possibility (simplicity kept in mind) to either a) have some form of launcher tickbox for whether gregtech is enabled on the pack you are running, or a separate pack with gregtech (the ultimate pack comes to mind). While the whole different levels of gregtech integration for difficulty sounds cool, I imagine it would be not only more complex to create (or well time-consuming at the very least), it would also be more difficult for newer players to grasp.

If there's just an on-off switch with an explanation of what gregtech does, I think it would be a simple way. I'd also suggest it being off by default since while I love it, I have to agree it doesn't help for a new player to mods such as IC2.

 

[whythisname]

Before reading, assume a situation where manually changing the configs is highly inconvenient or impossible.

Why? Because it's easier for people that like the changes GregTech makes than it is for people who don't like it? Personally I think FTB should include a menu to configure config files more easily though. That way they can track them more easily with updates and it would lighten the argument around GregTech I think (as editing the config will be less of a barrier, which seems to be a big issue with GregTech).

Well, to start off, recent updates to GregTech include a nerf to Forestry's Bronze recipe to match the output of IC2's recipe.

Is that bad? Because as it is that's the only way you want to create bronze right now, the IC2 recipe is useless unless you don't have Forestry. Of course another option would be to buff IC2's recipe, but either way I think they should be equal. It's weird that they are different anyway, it just makes the IC2 recipe a noob trap for anyone starting out with FTB (and a trap many people following IC2 guides will fall in... which many beginners use because there isn't any real FTB beginners guide yet).

Is ore generation going to be changed for this?

I don't see why that's needed, the IC2 recipe is sufficient I think. The alternative is to buff IC2's recipe, either way they can leave the generation alone.

Or is the Forestry recipe going to be disabled, locking Bronze behind the Macerator/Pulverizer?

I doubt it, but most people who play with IC2 get a macerator as one of their first machines anyway. I think the pulverizer is also one of the first things if you go the Buildcraft/Railcraft direction first. In many cases Bronze is only needed for more advanced machines and the armor/tools should be a bit harder to get as they are better than iron ones (basically you get slightly better iron stuff if you process it more, which is a fair trade in my opinion).

With the amount of dipping into other mods GregTech does, how many mod packs are just going to be the same mod pack with different GregTech configs?

I'm curious because I pretty much play SMP only and if Bronze acquisition is going to drastically change, I would want to alter my progression accordingly.

I dunno, but I like how GregTech ties the different materials and recipe's of different mods together. We'll see though and I agree, knowing some of these things would change my progress a bit. Especially something like a bronze making machine would have to change quite a bit depending on what they change (though I guess if you stick with the IC2 formula it won't matter...).

 

[SirChrisB]

Is that bad? Because as it is that's the only way you want to create bronze right now, the IC2 recipe is useless unless you don't have Forestry. Of course another option would be to buff IC2's recipe, but either way I think they should be equal. It's weird that they are different anyway, it just makes the IC2 recipe a noob trap for anyone starting out with FTB (and a trap many people following IC2 guides will fall in... which many beginners use because there isn't any real FTB beginners guide yet).

I´d actually preffer the IC2 recipe to be buffed, because it makes more sense that way. You now in RL you don´tt just mix one part of Tin with three parts of Copper, and then throw away half of what you get out of that prozess.

 

[Darlock Ahe]

Just wondering if people know that there is an advanced recipe for bronze in rotary macerator, it uses 1 copper and 1/4 or tin ingot for each bronze.

 

[SirChrisB]

Wait? FTB uses the Advanced Machines made by AtomicStryker? Damn... as time progresses, customizing this pack for my own liking in SSP seems to become more work than throwing everything I want into MultiMC and dig through IDconflict after IDconflict until it runs (and then look for updates that happened in the meantime and added new blocks and IDconflicts )

 

[Juanitierno]

i think gregtech is a good mod that has its pros and cons.

PROs:
* It lenthens the game, specially in servers, and reaching endgame is a far longer process (wich is not bad)
* Matterfab requires a lot of energy to produce, this is good as ive always felt UU was too powerful (who needs a quarry or mining when you can make almost everything out of UU?).

CONs:
* It confuses the hell out of new people looking for info on the mod's official wikis <- this alone i think should be enough to disable it by default
* It forces you to basically quarry a LOT of area to find the iridium you need for the matterfab. I completely agree with the 100x power requirement, but the iridium requirement is simply annoying. Also, once a player on a server gets his matterfab running this is no longer a huge issue and the "balance" is off.
* Industrial centrifuges make the management of items needlesly complex... you end up with a ton of dusts, cans, cells and byproducts you dont want, just to get something you need (this seems annoying to me and complicates needlessly the recipes). This would have been better if it costed the same resources (even more) but you could choose what your making... like 64 x redstone + 8 x water cells to get 8 silicon cells for the solars.

Anyways, my biggest issue with it is the fact that it confuses people by changing other mods recipes... watching many youtubers who are trying to get into modded i see that the most... people crafting drills with refined iron because the IC2 wiki said so, having issues with the mixed metals, etc.

I think its a big turn off for people when they feel they know nothing but at the same time they dont have a real way of learning because all the wikis are wrong because of gregtech... i think it feels like trying to learn french with a german dictionary...

Anyways, just my opinion. Please excuse the poor grammar, english is not my main language.

 

[raiju]

For sake of completeness Juan, any points I ignored I agreed with:

* It forces you to basically quarry a LOT of area to find the iridium you need for the matterfab. I completely agree with the 100x power requirement, but the iridium requirement is simply annoying. Also, once a player on a server gets his matterfab running this is no longer a huge issue and the "balance" is off.

Solution to that is the nether, at least on the build I'm on. It has been really easy to find iridium in small amounts in the nether with a jetpack (and a silktouch makes this much easier, but if you don't enchant then rockcutter is there)

* Industrial centrifuges make the management of items needlesly complex... you end up with a ton of dusts, cans, cells and byproducts you dont want, just to get something you need (this seems annoying to me and complicates needlessly the recipes). This would have been better if it costed the same resources (even more) but you could choose what your making... like 64 x redstone + 8 x water cells to get 8 silicon cells for the solars.

Well in the end it is a centrifuge.. I like how it works and how it can reward planning ahead in that regard, personally.

 

[MrZwij]

Juanitierno made the best case I've seen against the mod so far, but all those problems are manageable. Fortunately the recipe problem is addressed through NEI. It is a bigger concern on the occasional server like mine, where all the recipes are have been changed to hard mode (unlike default FTB), and we're often explaining to new players how to fix it.

No question it requires a LOT of mining if you want to go the GregTech end-game route (which of course is your choice). The Nether option is probably the best one to boost your production, but mostly what it does is result in tons of nether chunks being created as people travel thousands of blocks looking for iridium. I'd like to see the iridium ore world gen pumped up a bit, frankly. I disagree about the matterfab throwing off the balance though - even though it does eventually start to speed up, it's still slow going.

You see the centrifuge byproducts as trash, I see them as opportunity. If I don't know what they are, I just toss them in a chest for when I will eventually figure them out. They're all useful in some context, maybe way down the line.

And the earlier idea of a "newb" option I think is great in concept. I'd prefer a simple slider somewhere - easy (all GT nerfs turned off), medium (somewhere close to FTB), hard (default GT) and custom (tweak the config yourself).

 

[Bevo]

Some of my friends on my server like Greg tech and what it adds but I personally don't care for IC2 and Greg-tech and prefer other mods and doing other stuff. What really bugs the hell out of me is that Greg goes and screws up so many other aspects of the game that other mods are trying to add. If Greg-tech just did its own thing I wouldn't care. Even if it just messed with IC2 type stuff I wouldn't care. But he show absolutely zero concern for any of the other mods (IC2 or not) and even less concern for those wanting to play or do other things in different parts of the game outside IC2. It would be nice if those making mods would focus on their own mods and at least make some attempt not to mess up other mods so those like myself can play with my friends on my server without having the aspects of the game I enjoy ruined.

I would prefer if FTB wasn't just about Greg-tech.

 

[raiju]

Some of my friends on my server like Greg tech and what it adds but I personally don't care for IC2 and Greg-tech and prefer other mods and doing other stuff. What really bugs the hell out of me is that Greg goes and screws up so many other aspects of the game that other mods are trying to add. If Greg-tech just did its own thing I wouldn't care. Even if it just messed with IC2 type stuff I wouldn't care. But he show absolutely zero concern for any of the other mods (IC2 or not) and even less concern for those wanting to play or do other things in different parts of the game outside IC2. It would be nice if those making mods would focus on their own mods and at least make some attempt not to mess up other mods so those like myself can play with my friends on my server without having the aspects of the game I enjoy ruined.

I would prefer if FTB wasn't just about Greg-tech.

Except that's the opposite of what it does. The reason it involves itself with other mods (where applicable) is because it attempts to clear imbalances itself. It doesn't mess up other mods of the fun of it, it changes other mods so that one mod doesn't make another too easy, as an example. A couple things have slipped through the cracks but it does a good job of that.

I firmly believe that if other modders are interested and have the time, they should follow the example of GregoriusT and work to make their mods as balanced as possible when used in conjunction with other mods that they expect to be used alongside it. A certain other packs downfall for me was the horrid imbalance created by EE2, making everything else redundant when you are starting up because there EE2 made you so powerful so much faster than any other mod. I seem to recall something similar happening with the dev teams decision because on treecapitator I think, because it effectively made an endgame axe from thaumcraft(?) redundant early on.

 

[PieExplosion]

Is that bad? Because as it is that's the only way you want to create bronze right now, the IC2 recipe is useless unless you don't have Forestry. Of course another option would be to buff IC2's recipe, but either way I think they should be equal. It's weird that they are different anyway, it just makes the IC2 recipe a noob trap for anyone starting out with FTB (and a trap many people following IC2 guides will fall in... which many beginners use because there isn't any real FTB beginners guide yet).

I don't see why that's needed, the IC2 recipe is sufficient I think. The alternative is to buff IC2's recipe, either way they can leave the generation alone.

It's very bad. I'm on my third run-through of SMP progression, each time so far up to Matter Fab. I've been short on Tin every time, avoiding cans/cells, extracting EVERY extra cell I get from the Indy Cent, and using buckets wherever possible. STILL short on Tin. This third run, I currently have more Gold than Tin even after crafting Diamond chests. I actually have more Diamonds than Tin at the moment.

I doubt it, but most people who play with IC2 get a macerator as one of their first machines anyway. I think the pulverizer is also one of the first things if you go the Buildcraft/Railcraft direction first. In many cases Bronze is only needed for more advanced machines and the armor/tools should be a bit harder to get as they are better than iron ones (basically you get slightly better iron stuff if you process it more, which is a fair trade in my opinion).

TE added a config for a more expensive Pulverizer recipe that requires diamonds. Guess what that's going to be used for.

Just wondering if people know that there is an advanced recipe for bronze in rotary macerator, it uses 1 copper and 1/4 or tin ingot for each bronze.

It's still less efficient and less demand-friendly than Forestry's recipe.

Except that's the opposite of what it does. The reason it involves itself with other mods (where applicable) is because it attempts to clear imbalances itself. It doesn't mess up other mods of the fun of it, it changes other mods so that one mod doesn't make another too easy, as an example. A couple things have slipped through the cracks but it does a good job of that.

I firmly believe that if other modders are interested and have the time, they should follow the example of GregoriusT and work to make their mods as balanced as possible when used in conjunction with other mods that they expect to be used alongside it. A certain other packs downfall for me was the horrid imbalance created by EE2, making everything else redundant when you are starting up because there EE2 made you so powerful so much faster than any other mod. I seem to recall something similar happening with the dev teams decision because on treecapitator I think, because it effectively made an endgame axe from thaumcraft(?) redundant early on.

Except in this case, it created an imbalance on its own and attempted to correct its own imbalance at the risk of potential imbalance of another mod. If not handled correctly by correcting the configs of the modpack, it could worsen the balance of the mod pack.

It's lovely that you all are defending/attacking Greg's mod, attitude, and general ideals of his fans, but please don't get this locked like the last GregTech thread. I intended the thread to bring to light the Bronze change and inquire if the ore balance is being adjusted accordingly from a neutral standpoint.

 

[ItharianEngineering]

It's very bad. I'm on my third run-through of SMP progression, each time so far up to Matter Fab. I've been short on Tin every time, avoiding cans/cells, extracting EVERY extra cell I get from the Indy Cent, and using buckets wherever possible. STILL short on Tin. This third run, I currently have more Gold than Tin even after crafting Diamond chests. I actually have more Diamonds than Tin at the moment.

The reason you are low on tin is because FTB uses the forestry ore generation for tin and copper, which is balanced for it. It doesn't have recipes that require a bunch of tin. After I switched my own configs around so I had IC2 doing my tin and copper generation I stopped having problems with tin myself. It is a problem the FTB developers acknowledge and are changing.

 

[PieExplosion]

The reason you are low on tin is because FTB uses the forestry ore generation for tin and copper, which is balanced for it. It doesn't have recipes that require a bunch of tin. After I switched my own configs around so I had IC2 doing my tin and copper generation I stopped having problems with tin myself. It is a problem the FTB developers acknowledge and are changing.

Right. If they updated FTB, we would have more Tin and Copper. Then if we updated again and ended up with the nerfed Bronze output, Tin and Copper would once again be scarce. I'm trying to make sure the FTB devs acknowledge the change GregTech did. Whether or not they know about it is still a mystery to us.

 

[Robet24]

From everything I have gathered from this thread, is ultimately let the FTB crew configure it the way that is most balanced. Leave the mod in the pack though, because it does add depth to SMP servers. Also on the pvp/griefing servers I have played on, it brings people together to play as a team.

As for some of the changes Greg has done to modify other mods, the FTB crew can config it:

Macerator makes sense only if pulverizer had an equal cost.

Scaffolds can stay the same, just have the IC2 guy make it so that it burns for a lesser amount of EU.

Making bronze from dust only makes sense. If you dont have a macerator or pulverizer, make a iron mortar.

Honestly, the quarry recipe should be turned on by default but imho, its still too cheap.



Just my thoughts on it all from a SMP player view. SSP should probably make things a little easier because there really isnt a need to make things to longer to acquire.

 

[Sirbab]

Hold the phone everyone... really though, can we stop the bashing on gregtech? I honestly feel it's an amazing mod as it makes for example, VERY NEEDED balancing tweaks for IC2, changing the configs is extremely simple, and i can even make a tutorial for those too lazy to look up the instructions... (even though the config file explains it all very well ) I mean really, why on earth should on EVER make a pickaxe past stone, when all they need to do is mine for 15 minutes, and boom. Infinite use tools. If you all are going to complain about balance, why not take a gander at the Ore/maze map from TW? imho every mod should be as balanced as ic2 has been by GT. Not to mention the fact that many of the config options are OFF by default in FTB, Such as the macerator. Originally all i played with was ic2, why? because it was much easier to get the double ores and a much simpler design than other Tech mods. And one last thing, GT has Greatly changed since the version in the current beta pack, please try to be a bit more understanding, and less.... shall i say gripey, about a mod that if you really cannot use it, you can disable in less than 30 seconds.

 

[PieExplosion]

Hold the phone everyone... really though, can we stop the bashing on gregtech? I honestly feel it's an amazing mod as it makes for example, VERY NEEDED balancing tweaks for IC2, changing the configs is extremely simple, and i can even make a tutorial for those too lazy to look up the instructions... (even though the config file explains it all very well ) I mean really, why on earth should on EVER make a pickaxe past stone, when all they need to do is mine for 15 minutes, and boom. Infinite use tools. If you all are going to complain about balance, why not take a gander at the Ore/maze map from TW? imho every mod should be as balanced as ic2 has been by GT. Not to mention the fact that many of the config options are OFF by default in FTB, Such as the macerator. Originally all i played with was ic2, why? because it was much easier to get the double ores and a much simpler design than other Tech mods. And one last thing, GT has Greatly changed since the version in the current beta pack, please try to be a bit more understanding, and less.... shall i say gripey, about a mod that if you really cannot use it, you can disable in less than 30 seconds.

Please try to be a bit more understanding and actually read the contents of this thread.

 

[makeshiftwings]

Scaffolds can stay the same, just have the IC2 guy make it so that it burns for a lesser amount of EU.

I remember reading somewhere that Greg couldn't make the scaffolds burn for a shorter amount of time because they already burn for the minimum amount of time that Minecraft allows. Of course his nerf assumes people only use scaffolds to cheat in generators, instead of actually using them as... you know... scaffolds. What he could do is just make them not burn at all if he absolutely must stick his fingers in it; then he wouldn't be annoying the people who actually use scaffolds as scaffolds. But I don't think he will; it would hurt people who already build big gregtech machines that rely on burning scaffolds.

 

[Sirbab]

Please try to be a bit more understanding and actually read the contents of this thread.

I understand that many posts are not con-Gt, but i have been seeing quite a lot of posts that are asking for it to be removed, without careful examination of the mod's goal, as well as the fact that there are several other arguments, i just wanted to be the counter-voice to all the nay-sayers. Please do not take my message as harsh, but as informative.

 

[Carlos Alba]

If I had to state my opinion on Gregtech, I'd say that the biggest cons I see is that it makes a lot of new ores & dusts with dubious uses, making it very easy to lose yourself in the avalanche of stuff. I'd prefer for the mod to be a little less deep in that regard (IC added like 3-4 new ores and two or three more minerals, GT adds a dozen at least... plus the cans).

As for the bigges pros, it gives more life to the technical pack, gives new toys (I had some trouble in 1.4.2 with the new diamond drill not working properly with Mystcraft's Crystals, it was like punching them) and adds a lot of depth, with multiblock machines (I'm a sucker for those, really ).

Personally, I would alter the EU generation ratio, and I did alter the config file to make it use the default recipes for Solar panels, wind and water mills. I mean, when it is cheaper to craft an advanced solar generator than a new solar panel, you have a problem! And the lack of EU was holding me a lot. But once I managed to make two solar panels, I was drowing in EU, too big a step to feel right.

 

[Hydra]

Except that's the opposite of what it does. The reason it involves itself with other mods (where applicable) is because it attempts to clear imbalances itself. It doesn't mess up other mods of the fun of it, it changes other mods so that one mod doesn't make another too easy, as an example. A couple things have slipped through the cracks but it does a good job of that.

I think it's incredibly arrogant for just one person to think they they can by themselves decide what the 'balance' should be. Also: if you want to write a mod that 'balances' stuff, fine, but putting all that stuff in a technical mod is just silly. The extra things GT adds are very nice, but the 'balancing' should be done in a separate mod.And sorry, but his "balancing" isn't even close to 'good'. Requireing diamonds for a macerator for example isn't good balancing, it just makes getting the basic stuff more tedious. And overall that seems GregTech's way of making stuff 'difficult': simply require more hard to get stuff just so that people have to spend more time. To me that's not 'difficult': complexity comes from additional items, not from haviong to spend more time clicking or mining. Clicking and mining isn't difficult or complex, it just takes time. Getting a good sorting / processing system working with all the different item times that your farms and quarries produce, THAT is complexity. Fujnny enough he didn't add much interesting there, he just added his own version of existing stuff.

Don't get me wrong. I really like that he makes a lot of interesting additions to IC2 and gives it a next 'tier' of stuff to work with. But if you want to create a mod that 'fixes' stuff by changing someone else's recipies you need to do it in a separate mod because I personally will just disabled your entire mod.