GregTech vs. EE (My argument *against* the addition of EE)

[superriku11]

Edit:Edited Poll -Scottwears


Okay, so I've heard that EE is going to be added to the modpack. And before anyone reads the first sentence of this thread and thinks I'm referring to EE2, no, I am aware it's going to be EE3, and I am aware of some of the changes in EE3.

Pretty sure everyone knows this, however I'll say it anyways. EE = "Equivalent" Exchange. Some of you may be able to guess why I added the quotation marks around "equivalent". I'll explain it later.

Also, I'll use the words Cobblestone and Diamonds a lot. Think of Diamonds as anything rare and expensive, and Cobblestone as what it is, basically something cheap.





Alright so first of all, I have experience with many forums. I've been a member of many, moderator of a few, and even admin of one. From previous experience with forums, I've seen anyone with a low post count or recent join date or anything of the like sometimes treated differently, especially when making controversial arguments or points. Namely, other members pushing aside or discrediting that member's ideas simply because they're new or something.

I'd like for you to disregard the fact that this is my first post and that it is posted the same day as I have joined. Please don't consider the author of this thread, just try to consider the points. My post count / join date don't matter.





Sorry that was drawn out, the actual content begins here.

So I'm sure some of you will wonder why I compare GregTech with EE. I'm also sure some of you may immediately hate this, as I see a lot of hate for GregTech, and a lot of favoritism for EE.

I'll take a moment to explain this. GregTech adds some great machines. I'll address more points of GregTech later, but for now, I'm speaking mostly of the Matterfabricator and the Industrial Centrifuge.

Since the Matterfabricator is more mid-game or maybe even end-game for some people, I'll speak of the Industrial Centrifuge first.

The Industrial Centrifuge is the first GregTech machine accessible to you that essentially will allow you to change items into other items. I'm sure you know of recipes such as centrifuging redstone or a half stack of sand to get Silicon Cells, since I'm sure everyone's tried to get them for Solar Panels. There are many more recipes that allow you to essentially change one item into another, at a bit of a price. The price is that you could possibly get some items you don't want or need out of it, and it also costs EU and time.

The following is just one example of exchanging items using GregTech. Skip to the red text below if you don't want to read this part.

Lets take Coal Dust for example. Coal Dust can be gotten from centrifuging Netherrack Dust. Which is gotten from Macerating or Rock Crushing Netherrack. It requires 64 Netherrack Dust and therefore 64 Netherrack. However this expense is smaller than it sounds due to the fact that Netherrack mines very quickly, and with the quicker tools, you can even mine it instantly. And of course there's always things like a Quarry or a Turtle to do that for you while you do other things.

From centrifuging 64 Netherrack Dust you get 16 Sulfur Dust, 4 Redstone, 4 Gold Nuggets, and 4 Coal Dust. All these things are useful in their own way.





Now, I'd like to address the point I hope you already see from that. Netherrack is a cheap item, right? You can get it very easily, and you can get large amounts of it. From it, you can get Diamonds by extension. How? Well you get Coal Dust, right? Coal Dust can be made into a Coal Ball with the addition of one piece of Flint. Also easy to get.

One Coal Ball can be made into a Compressed Coal Ball with a Compressor. 8 Compressed Coal Balls with 1 Obsidian, also easy to get, can be made into a Coal Chunk. And one Coal Chunk can be compressed into one Diamond.





However I want you to realize something. Doing this requires 64 Coal Dust to make one Coal Chunk. This means you need 1024 Netherrack, or 16 stacks. (If my math is right of course). You also need a lot of power, which isn't really hard to get once you're fairly off the ground. And it also takes time. Want to shave off the amount of time it takes? Okay, add more Industrial Centrifuges. That'll require more power however. It's challenging, but balanced in my opinion. It's better for things to be underpowered than overpowered though if they can't be perfectly balanced.





Now the point I was trying to make with this is, you can turn a lot (16 stacks) of a fairly useless and easy to get item (Netherrack) into something useful, however it requires more machines and inherently resources if you want speed, and it requires more power the more machines you have.

It's fair in my opinion.










So, the summary of all that is, you can turn Netherrack to Diamonds if you're determined. Yes it takes time, yes you'll have to mine a lot of it. Don't want to mine? Add a Quarry or a Turtle. Want it to go faster? Add more machines, however you'll need more power.

I don't think basic items such as Netherrack should be "equivalent" to rare items like Diamonds in any way. Now you'll probably wonder why I support the centrifuging route though. Well, for one, it requires more than just a ton of the item. It's rather intricate and requires many parts. You need Macerators, Industrial Centrifuges, Compressors, automatic miners, and while things like auto miners or additional Industrial Centrifuges are optional, you need them to produce faster. And you need more energy to run those things.







Continued in next post.

 

[superriku11]

Now, I understand not everyone wants to read that wall of text. Most of it was for an example.

My point with all that was GregTech can be used to exchange items. You can even change Netherrack to Diamonds with enough power and resources. Is it the best route to Diamonds? No, but it's possible for those who want it. And it could all be automated, however it'll suck lots of power and take a fair bit of time.





The way that is more intended for the exchange of items is UU-Matter. However this requires a Matterfabricator, which again, requires a lot of power and resources. Making it another rather mid-game or maybe even end-game thing.

A Matterfabricator can be powered pretty well from a Nuclear Reactor though. One that is setup well can have a very high power output. Put all that output into a Matterfabricator and it won't take hours to get just a little UU-Matter.





Why do I prefer this over EE? Well, there's a few reasons.

It requires lots of power. A Nuclear Reactor is enough, but to actually get enough from it, you have to be good with Nuclear Reactors.

It's not really accessible until later in the game. Which is good. Because by the time you get later into the game, I feel it's more okay to be able to exchange some cheap items for more rare ones, always at a price of course.

It can easily be powered by a Fusion Reactor, however that's a much more end-game source of power.

It makes more "scientific sense" I'll say, for lack of a better term. You can recycle items, such as Cobblestone or Dirt, into Scrap. It's also not a 1:1 yield, which is good considering you're basically turning something cheap into something expensive. You turn things into Scrap, you use large amounts of power to "fabricate" Scrap into UU-Matter. Then, you have this mysterious product of scientific advancement, that can be turned into some other items in game. However, not all items. A rather restricted list, mostly consisting of vanilla items. However these items can be further turned into, or can assist you in getting other items. Again, I find this balanced.




















Overall, GregTech is much more balanced. It makes a lot of "scientific sense" how you turn things into other things. Either by UU-Matter or centrifuging.

There is one thing I'd like for GregTech to have though. The process of obtaining UU-Matter feels scientific and intricate. It also requires a lot of power which is the cost of it essentially. But once you have your UU-Matter, the process of turning it into items is simply crafting. This feels rather underwhelming.

What I'd like is for a block that is maybe cheap or moderately expensive to be added. Basically a crafting table only for UU-Matter. You put the UU-Matter in the grid to make what you want, you supply a bit of power to it (not a lot, I'd say even less power than some of the Industrial Centrifuge operations) and then you get your item. It'd just add to the science feeling a bit.

Continued in next post.

 

[superriku11]

Now I realize that was all very long, but I wanted to make all the points I felt were relevant. You'll be happy to know my section on "Equivalent" Exchange is shorter.

So the points I went over with GregTech, about it being balanced, making "scientific sense", being intricate and feeling science-ey, hopefully you got what I meant by most of them. Well about none of them apply to EE.

EE2 was very unbalanced. I watched videos of it and saw people excited about turning Diamonds into stacks and stacks of marble. Everything also had an EMC value, and for almost no effort, you could just get a ton of something and change it into Diamonds.

However I'm aware that EE3 is intended to be more balanced. And from what I've seen of it, the efforts to do so are okay, but not enough. You can still essentially change Cobblestone to Diamonds from what I understand, but it's harder to do so. And just a short point, again with the crafting. You just plop things into a crafting table and turn them into other things, using some kind of stone.

EE3 is very non-intricate. It's process of changing items is just too basic for my liking. It also comes at no cost, other than a lot of the item.












Quick comparison:

GregTech

• Is more balanced in how it exchanges items.
• To make cheap items into expensive items, you need a lot of said cheap items. You also need a lot of power.
• This adds to the science and intricate feeling of GregTech.
• Makes more sense, there's less "particles" of other items you want mixed in with common items like Netherrack. Requires lots of centrifuging and power to "extract" said "particles".
• The process of Items > Recycling > Scrap > Matterfabricating > UU-Matter > New Items is intricate, requires lots of power, and goes rather slow, making it more balanced ultimately.
• To make it go fast, you need a lot of power, like a Fusion Reactor, which is pretty end-game.

Equivalent Exchange

• Less balanced in how it exchanges items.
• To make cheap items into expensive items, you mostly just need a lot of said cheap items. No power, no complex process to do so, just lots of items.
• No part of it makes "scientific sense", it's just putting items in a crafting table and getting other items out.
• It's very easy to access the ability to exchange items using EE once you're off the ground. Once you're setup and you have access to some resources, you can begin using and overusing EE.
• Even in EE3, it feels too overpowered. It's different than EE2, however there's still really no cap on it. In GregTech, you need more machines for more speed, which needs more power. Or for Matterfabricator, you simply need more power for more UU-Matter. The cap on GregTech is time and power. Time can be reduced at the cost of power. More power requires more resources, i.e. Solar Panels.

I'd appreciate if you read most of my points, even if you just skim to get the important parts, before you criticize me for supporting GregTech and disliking "Equivalent" Exchange. And if you haven't got it yet, there's quotes around "equivalent" because I really don't feel it's equivalent. You can use it just as much as you want only at the cost of many items. GregTech is better in exchanging because it requires more time and power. More power if you want faster operations.

Basically, I feel EE does what GregTech does, but does it easier, and does it cheaper. And the only reason people like it is because some people worship Diamonds, and are lazy, just wanting to change all their useless items into Diamonds and other things so that they can be invincible and overpowered. Honestly, why don't you just play Creative if you want that?





Now I'd like to make one last point here. Jadedcat has said a few things in the mod suggestion thread here that I feel very much apply to this issue. The following are quotes saying what things won't make it into the modpack.

2. Mods that duplicate something other mods already do. Especially if they do it at a lower resource cost will have a very difficult time getting into the pack. Why add an extra mod that negates part of one of the main mods?That doesn't mean they won't but they will need to add something more then just the duplicate items.

EE exchanges items, and that is pretty much all it does. GregTech exchanges items, as well as adding lots of other functionality. GregTech is already in the pack, EE is not. EE essentially duplicates the ability to exchange items, but it does it for cheaper. No power required, no time required. Just items are required.

Why add EE when it just negates the exchanging features of GregTech, since EE is easier to exchange with?

5. Mods that make things "easier" these mods tend to be out of balance for the FTB map. The main pack will be the pack for the FTB maps so having unbalanced and OP mods in the pack just won't work.

I feel that even EE3 is just overpowered and too easy. Yes, I am aware it is meant to be less overpowered. However in contrast to GregTech, it's far easier. And I feel that while GregTech might be slightly underpowered and too hard for some people, I think it's about right, it's just fine.

7. Our intention is to create muliple mod packs, so in the case of exceptional mods that dont meet these guidelines, exceptions can be made.

Before anyone says it, yes I'm aware that there is the intention of multiple modpacks. However I don't really feel like EE should be included at all. I would've said include it, disable it by default, have an option to enable it, but then just everyone will enable it. Every server will use it since it'll be considered more a part of the pack. If people want it they can side load it themselves. Same goes for servers.

The default, regular FTB however, should not have it. It makes the game more fun, more challenging, longer lasting, and more balanced.





I know there's the ever popular answer of "If you don't like it don't use it", however this doesn't work for servers. If I join a server where the admin likes and has enabled EE, then everyone but me ends up using it, everyone will have tons of Diamonds or other expensive things while I have way less than them.








And yes, I am aware that the original FTB was a map with a pack of mods intended to go along with the map. I'm aware EE was a very core part of this. But you have to look at what's current. Some people may still want to play FTB mainly as a modpack + map. But most people are using it for an enhanced single player or multiplayer experience. EE may've fit well with that map, but I really feel like it unbalances the game. While this isn't an issue for Single Player since you can disable it, but in multiplayer, it ruins it since everyone else will still use it.

Continued in next post.

 

[superriku11]

I hope you aren't turned away by this huge wall of text, and that you consider and maybe even agree with my points. For the good of the game, I feel that EE does what GregTech does, only easier and cheaper, and due to that, it makes the game less fun, less intricate, shorter, and less challenging. It's better off without it.

Also, I'm adding a poll with all the options I thought of for what I think different people would like. Mods or developers, please don't view it as a petition of any sort, as it's not. I just want to see what most people's stance is. And one more thing, I know this is very drawn out. If anyone wants to condense most of my important points for better use of this argument, feel free to. I give you permission to copy paste this, edit it, reuse it, whatever. I'd appreciate credit as the original author though.

 

[makeshiftwings]

How do you change cobble into diamonds in EE3? I didn't see a way to make diamonds at all but I didn't look that closely at it.

 

[Jugg3rV]

I am sorry, i don't want to read al this. I can only state since its ee3 that will be in the mod pack and i am not sure who can at this moment talk about the balance within ee3 this discuission seems to be pointles for me ... in Gregtech i like the centrifuges ... didn't use other stuff right now ... since i am no fan of quarry'ing lots of mystcraft worlds to the extreeme ...

 

[Tylor]

GregTech is not at all necessary to make stuff out of nothing. And neither is EE.

 

[makeshiftwings]

I went and looked at EE3 again, it's 4 cobble = 1 flint, 4 flint = 1 clay blob, 4 clay blob = 1 clay block, 4 clay block = 1 iron, 8 iron = 1 gold, 4 gold = 1 diamond. So in total:

1 diamond = 4 x 8 x 4 x 4 x 4 x 4 = 8192 cobble, or 128 stacks.

Worse IMO is using wood, where 2 wood = 1 obsidian, 4 obsidian = 1 iron, so

1 diamond = 4 x 8 x 4 x 2 = 256 wood, or 4 stacks.

Overall, I agree that the EE recipes are pretty cheesy, especially with no cost to the transformation. If he made it so that each transmutation drained energy from the minium stone and you had to recharge it somehow, that would be better. 1 stack of wood becomes 8 iron... that's pretty fast infinite iron if you have a forestry farm.

 

[superriku11]

How do you change cobble into diamonds in EE3? I didn't see a way to make diamonds at all but I didn't look that closely at it.

As I said, I generally use the word Cobblestone to refer to anything cheap and easy to get. I know you can use EE3 to get Diamonds from Gravel, Sand, Flint, and probably a lot of other things by extension. As seen in this video:

Continuing that example, you can use Sand, very easy to get, just use something explosive on a desert and you've got a ton. You take your Sand and turn it into a ton of Clay. Turn those Clay into Clay Blocks. Turn those Clay Blocks into Iron. Turn 8 Iron into Gold, put 4 Gold together to get a Diamond.

I honestly wonder what part of this is equivalent. Once you have a Mining Laser, not a hard thing to get, you can set it to Explosive, blow up a ton of sand in a desert, and turn all that Sand into a bunch of Diamonds in less than 2 minutes. GregTech doesn't just accept any item, Netherrack is the best example, it's still easy to get, however takes a while to turn it into anything, and costs a lot of power.

GregTech is not at all necessary to make stuff out of nothing. And neither is EE.

I'm sorry, but I don't quite understand what you're saying here. Unless you mean getting something out of nothing using, say, a Quarry. However I'm speaking of turning your chests full of existing items into other things. EE3 does this in a very cheap and easy way that feels cheaty. GregTech does this in a very scientific feeling way that's intricate and requires effort, time, and resources.[DOUBLEPOST=1355529508][/DOUBLEPOST]

I went and looked at EE3 again, it's 4 cobble = 1 flint, 4 flint = 1 clay blob, 4 clay blob = 1 clay block, 4 clay block = 1 iron, 8 iron = 1 gold, 4 gold = 1 diamond. So in total:

1 diamond = 4 x 8 x 4 x 4 x 4 x 4 = 8192 cobble, or 128 stacks.

Worse IMO is using wood, where 2 wood = 1 obsidian, 4 obsidian = 1 iron, so

1 diamond = 4 x 8 x 4 x 2 = 256 wood, or 4 stacks.

Overall, I agree that the EE recipes are pretty cheesy, especially with no cost to the transformation. If he made it so that each transmutation drained energy from the minium stone and you had to recharge it somehow, that would be better. 1 stack of wood becomes 8 iron... that's pretty fast infinite iron if you have a forestry farm.

Ah, see. This is what I was talking about. It's not the same EMC type stuff as before. But it's changing blocks by extension. GregTech also changes things by extension, but does it at the cost of energy and resources, which I feel balances it.

 

[DaNerd27]

Better yet: continue to exclude GregTech from Magic World and place EE3 in there instead.

You also probably can't stop any mod's inclusion in the upcoming FTB Ultimate Pack, balanced or not. If you really don't want EE3 messing up your MC sensibilities, just utilize the packs without EE3 (such as the FTB Beta and the yet-to-be-released FTB Main Pack) and only join servers with those packs.

In regards to the post directly above me: Please note that in the current version of EE3, the Minium Stone takes durability damage with each transmutation, and the current method to obtain it is more than likely to be changed to be much more difficult. You may not want to judge its imbalance until the mod is complete, because many of the promised features such as increased balancing are yet to be included.

 

[superriku11]

Better yet: continue to exclude GregTech from Magic World and place EE3 in there instead.

You also probably can't stop any mod's inclusion in the upcoming FTB Ultimate Pack, balanced or not. If you really don't want EE3 messing up your MC sensibilities, just utilize the packs without EE3 (such as the FTB Beta and the yet-to-be-released FTB Main Pack) and only join servers with those packs.

My point is, if EE3 is ever added, it'll sort of ruin FTB as a whole. Servers will begin using it, because too many people like it and like the game to be easy, therefore it'll be hard to find one without it. If you look at the reply by makeshiftwings he describes what I mean when I talk about how EE3 works and how it's too easy and overpowered.

It shouldn't be added at all. EE3 will be released as a mod separate from the pack regardless of what is decided to be put in the pack. Those who want EE can side load it. Servers who want it can side load it and give instructions for all players on how to side load it. It's better to not include it because it'll make things too easy and basically ruin multiplayer. Sure you can disable it in Single Player, but it'd be hard to find a server without it since most people like it.

 

[Dex Luther]

For the 1000th time. Who cares? If you don't like one mod or another DISABLE IT!

It's been stated many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many times already that there's going to tons and tons and tons of different mod packs available with different combinations of mods. If there's one mod pack that you really like but has one or two mods you don't like, DISABLE THE ONES YOU DON'T LIKE.

They don't really care whether you like Gregtech over EE, vice versa or neither. They aren't going to remove any mod from any pack because YOU don't like it. They're going to put whatever mod they want in whatever pack they want. If you don't like it, they'll say "Tough luck. It's there. Disable it if you don't like it."

My point is, if EE3 is ever added, it'll sort of ruin FTB as a whole. Servers will begin using it, because too many people like it and like the game to be easy, therefore it'll be hard to find one without it. If you look at the reply by makeshiftwings he describes what I mean when I talk about how EE3 works and how it's too easy and overpowered.

It shouldn't be added at all. EE3 will be released as a mod separate from the pack regardless of what is decided to be put in the pack. Those who want EE can side load it. Servers who want it can side load it and give instructions for all players on how to side load it. It's better to not include it because it'll make things too easy and basically ruin multiplayer. Sure you can disable it in Single Player, but it'd be hard to find a server without it since most people like it.

It's not going to hurt or damage FTB at all for the sole reason that people can easily DISABLE MODS THEY DON'T LIKE!

Your argument is a moot point anyways. If most people like it, then most people will side load it and you'll be right back to square one for finding servers without it.

 

[soflaz]

Superriku, I was actually thinking about this very thing earlier today when I was researching on how to construct my nuclear reactor and came upon a lot of EE components on the tekkit wiki. Essentially, I feel that it comes down to how you view GregTech then. You can either look at it as infrastructure or you can look at it as game play. In a game like Minecraft, the point is to build things and be creative using tools. The point is not to create the tools. With a pack like FTB (GregTech in particular), I think this changes a bit. To a lot of people the point is still the same and everything else is just fluff to make their gameplay easier and more enjoyable (in which case, an unbalanced mod like EE would be fine). For me, however, I enjoy designing intricate systems that require a lot to build up to. It gives me a sense of accomplishing something. Working up to that fusion reactor or whatever is the game play for me. So from my point of view, I agree with you.

 

[DaNerd27]

My point is, if EE3 is ever added, it'll sort of ruin FTB as a whole. Servers will begin using it, because too many people like it and like the game to be easy, therefore it'll be hard to find one without it. If you look at the reply by makeshiftwings he describes what I mean when I talk about how EE3 works and how it's too easy and overpowered.

It shouldn't be added at all. EE3 will be released as a mod separate from the pack regardless of what is decided to be put in the pack. Those who want EE can side load it. Servers who want it can side load it and give instructions for all players on how to side load it. It's better to not include it because it'll make things too easy and basically ruin multiplayer. Sure you can disable it in Single Player, but it'd be hard to find a server without it since most people like it.

There's still the chance of others sharing your opinion on Equivalent Exchange's inherent imbalance when included alongside other mods, and you always have the ability to make a server of your own (or get a friend to do it) completely void of EE3. Give Pahi a chance to balance it more, as it is obviously unfinished and is intended to be in one of the packs eventually. He may even be especially focused on allowing it to be used in conjunction with mods such as GregTech without turning the entire client into a boiling stew of OP.

 

[superriku11]

For the 1000th time. Who cares? If you don't like one mod or another DISABLE IT!

It's been stated many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many times already that there's going to tons and tons and tons of different mod packs available with different combinations of mods. If there's one mod pack that you really like but has one or two mods you don't like, DISABLE THE ONES YOU DON'T LIKE.

They don't really care whether you like Gregtech over EE, vice versa or neither. They aren't going to remove any mod from any pack because YOU don't like it. They're going to put whatever mod they want in whatever pack they want. If you don't like it, they'll say "Tough luck. It's there. Disable it if you don't like it." It's not going to hurt or damage FTB at all for the sole reason that people can easily DISABLE MODS THEY DON'T LIKE!

Not to be rude, but you seem to have missed my point.

EE will very much ruin FTB. Not Single Player, that'll be fine no matter what's added. I'm speaking on the issue of Multiplayer. If EE becomes part of the default pack especially, or even one of the optional other packs, I'm sure most servers will use it. Lots of people like it because it makes things easy. People who like more challenge and a feeling of balance in the game, they don't like EE. EE is just a cheaty "turn a ton of sand into Diamonds" sort of thing.

By excluding EE from the default pack, and hopefully the additional packs as well, it will discourage it's widespread use. It will still be possible to use it in Single Player and even Multiplayer for those who want it. It can be side loaded like any other mod that is currently not included but compatible with the current version of the game. However this will most importantly discourage it's use on servers.

Why? Because if a server adds it, players must add it as well. Therefore lots of servers won't add it because they don't want to have to give players an extra step to have to do before joining. But, for those groups of people and online forums or communities that want EE, there will be servers that will choose to add it, and players who want it will add it so they can play on those servers.

I'm trying to avoid it being a default part of the pack(s) in any way, so that it doesn't appear on nearly every server. Because those who want it seem to be greater than those who don't. It's just that those who don't speak out more about it than those who do. By making it an additional step for the server admin and then consequently each player to use it, it discourages it's use widespread, which is better than encouraging it's use.

 

[makeshiftwings]

In regards to the post directly above me: Please note that in the current version of EE3, the Minium Stone takes durability damage with each transmutation, and the current method to obtain it is more than likely to be changed to be much more difficult. You may not want to judge its imbalance until the mod is complete, because many of the promised features such as increased balancing are yet to be included.

Weird, I thought I had the latest version, I guess not. Yeah, if the minium stone takes damage each time, and you can only make a new one by harvesting minium from monsters, then it might be ok.

 

[DaNerd27]

For the 1000th time. Who cares? If you don't like one mod or another DISABLE IT!

It's been stated many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many times already that there's going to tons and tons and tons of different mod packs available with different combinations of mods. If there's one mod pack that you really like but has one or two mods you don't like, DISABLE THE ONES YOU DON'T LIKE.

They don't really care whether you like Gregtech over EE, vice versa or neither. They aren't going to remove any mod from any pack because YOU don't like it. They're going to put whatever mod they want in whatever pack they want. If you don't like it, they'll say "Tough luck. It's there. Disable it if you don't like it."


It's not going to hurt or damage FTB at all for the sole reason that people can easily DISABLE MODS THEY DON'T LIKE!

Your argument is a moot point anyways. If most people like it, then most people will side load it and you'll be right back to square one for finding servers without it.

No need to get angry over it, he's just stating what he perceives to be a possible issue regarding overall modpack balance for the packs EE3 may or may not be included in.

 

[superriku11]

Superriku, I was actually thinking about this very thing earlier today when I was researching on how to construct my nuclear reactor and came upon a lot of EE components on the tekkit wiki. Essentially, I feel that it comes down to how you view GregTech then. You can either look at it as infrastructure or you can look at it as game play. In a game like Minecraft, the point is to build things and be creative using tools. The point is not to create the tools. With a pack like FTB (GregTech in particular), I think this changes a bit. To a lot of people the point is still the same and everything else is just fluff to make their gameplay easier and more enjoyable (in which case, an unbalanced mod like EE would be fine). For me, however, I enjoy designing intricate systems that require a lot to build up to. It gives me a sense of accomplishing something. Working up to that fusion reactor or whatever is the game play for me. So from my point of view, I agree with you.

Now this is what I'm talking about.

Yes, lots of people view mods as additions to make the game easier or just to add more to it, in a way of also making it easier. However I don't want easy. I want mods to feel like extensions to the game that make it more fun to actually play. GregTech is a real challenge mod. Nothing is meant to be easy about it, which is good in my opinion. I enjoy intricate systems that require time and effort to build up to. Not just building for the sake of building, and using mods that make it super easy to get things so you can continue for the sake of building. I know lots of people like that, but really, Creative mode guys. Creative mode. Don't ruin our fun with mods meant to make things easier.

So far, FTB very much has a feeling of extending gameplay, and that's how it should stay.[DOUBLEPOST=1355531103][/DOUBLEPOST]

Weird, I thought I had the latest version, I guess not. Yeah, if the minium stone takes damage each time, and you can only make a new one by harvesting minium from monsters, then it might be ok.

Mob farms are easy things to build. If they're dropped from Zombies like in the video, make a simple Zombie grinder that will drop them so that they have half a heart. Then punch them repeatedly to get Minium Stones. Then you can continue with turning Sand to Diamonds. Making them drop from mobs is not a good solution. And if all you do is just make it harder to obtain the Minium Stone by requiring lots of resources (like GregTech does with things like the Matterfabricator being expensive to build) then you're just duplicating GregTech. So again, why add EE? GregTech is here, EE basically copies what it does, only makes it easier. If you make EE harder, it's just doing the GregTech solution, make things hard to obtain and that balances it. But then EE is just a duplicate mod, only with less features than GregTech.

If EE comes up with something creative and not overpowered, I'll look it and possibly change my mind. However for it's entire life, EE has been overpowered. I'm honestly not sure that they're capable of balancing it in a way that is different than GregTech.

 

[Dex Luther]

Not to be rude, but you seem to have missed my point.

EE will very much ruin FTB. Not Single Player, that'll be fine no matter what's added. I'm speaking on the issue of Multiplayer. If EE becomes part of the default pack especially, or even one of the optional other packs, I'm sure most servers will use it. Lots of people like it because it makes things easy. People who like more challenge and a feeling of balance in the game, they don't like EE. EE is just a cheaty "turn a ton of sand into Diamonds" sort of thing.

By excluding EE from the default pack, and hopefully the additional packs as well, it will discourage it's widespread use. It will still be possible to use it in Single Player and even Multiplayer for those who want it. It can be side loaded like any other mod that is currently not included but compatible with the current version of the game. However this will most importantly discourage it's use on servers.

Why? Because if a server adds it, players must add it as well. Therefore lots of servers won't add it because they don't want to have to give players an extra step to have to do before joining. But, for those groups of people and online forums or communities that want EE, there will be servers that will choose to add it, and players who want it will add it so they can play on those servers.

I'm trying to avoid it being a default part of the pack(s) in any way, so that it doesn't appear on nearly every server. Because those who want it seem to be greater than those who don't. It's just that those who don't speak out more about it than those who do. By making it an additional step for the server admin and then consequently each player to use it, it discourages it's use widespread, which is better than encouraging it's use.

No it won't. You missed MY point completely. Those who dislike it can disable it or use packs that don't have it. I'm sure you're not the only one, so there's going to be plenty of servers out there for you. They're not going to discourage the use of a mod just because YOU don't like it. Especially a mod created by their friend.

I hate to break it to you, but it's probably going be in the main pack and a lot of the other ones too. You're going to have to disable it or use a pack that doesn't have it. Get over it. FTB doesn't revolve around you or what you do or don't like.

It's much less of an extra step for people/servers that don't like it to say "Download X pack and disable A B and C mods" rather than have people/servers download mods from somewhere else, side load them, and then hope there aren't any ID conflicts.

No need to get angry over it, he's just stating what he perceives to be a possible issue regarding overall modpack balance for the packs EE3 may or may not be included in.

Actually, I'm not mad at all. If he had bothered to do a little searching, he would have seem that there's a million other treads about this that all end the same way: "If you don't like it, disable it."

It can't get any simpler or easier than that!

 

[makeshiftwings]

My personal opinion: GregTech's changes to other people's mods are tedious nonsense that I don't want to be bothered with, but EE2's "infinite everything instantly" was way too over-the-top. I don't usually complain about things being overpowered, but... yeah... a machine that basically turns on creative mode kind of makes the entire resource-gathering aspect of the game pointless. I think it's too early to make a call on EE3; I do think he's trying much harder to make it balanced and he's listening to feedback. I don't think he wants another Tekkit scenario where half the Tekkit servers are "Tekkit without EE". He wants his mod to fit alongside the other popular mods rather than obsolete them.