Forge compatible shared banlist( thread closed because of trolls) sign up for beta
- Thread starter zbayne
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I am glad we are already on the name calling fallacies, discredits you just a bit more.
If the venom is gone I might actually try to participate in this thread.
how about there is a threshold so that say I do something stupid ( drinking, tired, cranky admin) and get banned from a server
the threshold comes in when I go to join another server that subscribes to the first servers ban list, instead of being kicked from the server I am dropped into a "sandbox" mystcraft age ware I can prove that I have sobered up before joining the rest of the servers population.
how ever if I have been banned from more then one server on the sub list then I cant join.
as a config file option
This system has the potential to be vary good or vary bad, lets stop shouting and try not to make the same mistakes others have
how about there is a threshold so that say I do something stupid ( drinking, tired, cranky admin) and get banned from a server
the threshold comes in when I go to join another server that subscribes to the first servers ban list, instead of being kicked from the server I am dropped into a "sandbox" mystcraft age ware I can prove that I have sobered up before joining the rest of the servers population.
how ever if I have been banned from more then one server on the sub list then I cant join.
as a config file option
This system has the potential to be vary good or vary bad, lets stop shouting and try not to make the same mistakes others have
I would have to say that I, too, am a bit wary of any sort of global bans system, simply because of the globalness of it. It's very easy for 1 person's case to get lost in the system, and that one person could be you. It could be me. It happens all the time.
To be honest that sounds a little complicated to handle. At least the integration with mystcraft part. Though it would nice have some servers that just warn on join, others that could out right kick etc. Ill start with making a config option that global sets a server to warn/ban mode and maybe down the road add a feature to the website that allows you to kick depending on the trust level you give server or hook into a yet to be created jail mod. I think that is the best i could do and certainly will not be in the first version .
Well, one of the best things you could do is to have a config file for a custom command to execute on banned player join. That would give a lot of possibilities. For example, you could set it to /kick PlayerName, or possibly /tpx PlayerName 8 (or any other dimension), or even /echo PlayerName has a global ban, watch out!
This sounds a lot like a sort of PBBans, which streams ban information between servers. There are a few ban streaming services for Battlefield 3, and the sad thing is there's always innocent people that get banned from tons of servers all because they killed some server admin with a big ego.
The only REAL solution I see is the minecraft developers implementing Punkbuster or something like it directly into the main game. Such things might be impossible or hard to do because of server permissions allowing creative for some people and other not and other such differences in abilities. Then add is mods and everything would turn to chaos since Punkbuster wouldn't know what was a cheat anymore and what wasn't.
The only REAL solution I see is the minecraft developers implementing Punkbuster or something like it directly into the main game. Such things might be impossible or hard to do because of server permissions allowing creative for some people and other not and other such differences in abilities. Then add is mods and everything would turn to chaos since Punkbuster wouldn't know what was a cheat anymore and what wasn't.
I'd never trust any automated system. I'm lucky to play with friendly server admins, but not all admins are friendly, or trustworthy.
So do I, but on slower days or later at night when the server has less people on it we go looking for other server. Look at the BF3 forums or any game with anti-cheat and streaming bans, they're full of "I shot the admin and now I'm banned from 50 of my favorite servers!" threads.
I've seen no evidence that this system will be any different. Wabbit seemed to be trying to point this out, but seemed to be countered with only "I don't care. It's going to be different." responses. When pressured into giving a more detailed description of how it'll be different, he listed how his mod will function exactly like other abused services like it. *shrugs*
That is a good possibility a config option of ban/say/warn/custom command. Ill branch that off tonight.
Im not sure how saying that "we will not handle any bans/ban appeals directly" is anything like the aforementioned mcbans or other global banning tools. Once again beastban is a tool to share bans with like minded servers, it like publicly putting your banslist online and letting people download it except it does it from in the game, it works no differently then merging 2 banlists together yourself and putting it on your server. I am really trying not to sound like a asshole and give level headed responses even with the level of absurdity coming from some people or rather one in particular. If you go back and actually read instead of listening to the loudest person I hope that it has been made clear that I did answer wabbits questions. In his case, he has no plan to ever consider using this mod and instead would just like to continually bash it, your right i do not particularly care about his opinion besides informing him that he will most likely never be happy with it and should not use it. If you are the same then same response because there is no way I can make you happy, this thread is geared towards people looking for a tool to help keep i useful player audience and would like to suggest things for the implementation.
Uhm.
Stay on target.
I wasn't talking about whether or not it's doable sir.
What I was addressing was the "if you follow the rules you have nothing to worry about" line.
That's 100% pie in the sky optimism.
For the reasons I have already spoken of.
zbayne: What we're all trying to get across to you is that streaming banlists, in general, is what scientists are calling "a bad idea". In a perfect world, stuff like this would be awesome. Unfortunately, there's a key difference between our world and this ideal world: human nature. If the system can be exploited, it will be exploited. And trust me, any sort of shared banlist system is easy to exploit. Then there's the fact that it's automated. So what if I earn a semi-legit ban? Something very disputable, something I probably shouldn't have been banned for, but I did, nonetheless? There's going to be an appeals system in place, obviously, but in any big system, there are a few cases that get lost in the system. I don't want to get lost in the system, and nobody else does either. And then, there's the fact that true griefers have craploads of alts to use, evading your bans.
Face it: this system, and anything like it, will be useless at best, harmful at worst. That's how automated streaming ban systems work.
Face it: this system, and anything like it, will be useless at best, harmful at worst. That's how automated streaming ban systems work.
Yeah and what happens if some admin on one of those 'like minded servers' is having a bad day or is just an asshole and bans someone simply because they didn't like the person's skin, house design, or simply "for the lulz"? Because of one creton someone gets banned from what? 5, 10, 50 servers? This is exactly what happens with every other banlist sharing service. You can say "We'll deal with appeals manually" all you want. I shouldn't have to wait until you get around to my ticket just because some asshole admin was having a bad day or something. Unless you're trying to say that you're going to have people on 24/7 dealing with tickets and that time to resolve these is going to be 20 minutes or less, then sorry, but I don't see how this is any different than services already offered or that exist in other games and are abused.
I get the feeling that you don't play many online game, and much less online shooters. If you did, then you'd already know that the issue I'm talking about is very real and it happens more often than it should. Let me paint a couple scenarios for you:
Scenario #1:
You're playing an online shooter. You join a server that you see one of your friends in. You pick your class and weapons and then spawn in. Immediately to your left you see a shiny tank just spawned in and is waiting for you. You love driving the tank! You look around. No one around, so you run over to it and hop in. As you're driving away ready to kick some ass you see a message come up in the chat: "GET THE FUCK OUT OF MY TANK YOU FUCKING NOOB!" Then suddenly you find yourself back at the main menu with a message on your screen: "You have been kicked/banned from the server. Reason given: Fuck you asshole!"
Scenario #2:
You're playing another online shooter (or could be the same one. Doesn't matter). Again you join your friend playing on a server. This time you and your friend are on skype, teamspeak, Ventrillo, whatever and are working together. You're both coordinating your attacks, and you're both doing well. In fact you and your friend work so well together that the team is winning largely due to the both of you. An admin happens to be on the other team, which is mostly comprised of his friends. Suddenly you find yourself back at the main menu with the message on your screen: "You have been kicked/banned from the server. Reason given: Fuck you cheating noob!"
In both scenarios you decide to leave it be and try another server. The game loads and the message appears in the chat "Kicking [Your in game name]" followed by others "Bye cheater!" "Fuck you cheater!" "GFTO H4xX0R!!11" Then you're back at the main menu again with the message on your screen "You have been kicked/banned from the server. Reason given: Steaming bans from [Enter name of a ban streaming service]" In both cases all you did was play the game, in both cases admins abused their power and their servers happened to be using a streaming service, and in both cases you're banned from multiple servers for doing absolutely nothing wrong. Sure there's an appeals process on this service, but do you really want to go through that, and have it take who knows how long only to run the risk of being subjected to this all over again every time you set foot in a server?
Those sound like terrible servers to be on and I'm sure you could find somewhere worth your time playing. This is about servers trusting servers. If my server trusts a server that bans people for reasons seen above then obviously my server is not of the quality that is enjoyable either. Not all of us come from the "12 year old xbox gaming scene" where profanity is cool and having power over people in a game is life. The few servers I have played on and stuck around with are often very clean in and publicly announce ban with appeals system and proof and very little of the raging admin syndrome you fear. Yes I'm sure the system will be used to be unfair and that is why I wont nothing to do with the actual banning of players, But I know on my server I will trust servers that have sane methods of banning and such hope to see my players benefit both from not having to deal with dirty players but also a fair system. fair as in if it is brought to my attention as a server owner not as a developer that I put my trust in a server that is obviously abusing the system, or even not abusing but not following my own servers guidelines then it is a simple change in the web interface to detrust that server. Or maybe exempt that player on my server. If a server owner put there trust in the cess pool that you are afraid off then most likely they are ill prepared to bring a enjoyable server experience anyway. In that sense having that admin trust the wrong server means he could have just as well raged anyway even with out the ban list aggregator. With this solution people playing on a server are not my targeted audience, the server and its staff are, with the people playing on it being there audience. I hope that clears some of your concerns up. Obviously with just alpha servers using the system at the moment I know exactly who is using the system and know that any and all bans are followed up with photographic proof and reasons that are not caps lock rage mode, and it is only servers like that I will ever trust and it works well for the moment.
edit:
I want to reiterate there are no global ban lists in the working. People are allowed to set up there own lists or rather will because this part has not even been started yet, have lists not directly linked to a server but those will not be administered or forced on anyone.
edit2:
that is actually exactly what I said the tool was not, I will never handle a ban appeal for you. If someone bans you and that ban get propagated to other servers then that server makes the choice if it is fair or not, if its not fair then it sounds like that server should not have been trusted. This mod is a tool, most servers I hope will use it in the ideal way trusting the right servers and such, if they don't that is there fault and they lose out on people playing there. regardless at no point do I or the mod decide to ban you.
black lists and whitelists are never perfect. Believe me I fought for months with with the bastards at spamhaus trying to get a email domain of a black list, but the truth of the matter is with out these tools email would be unusable because while they do have a obvious failure rate they do work. And the beauty of this discussion is I'm not asking to be your spamhaus, that is far from what I would ever want to do unpaid. Rather I'm the firewall script that takes information and does stuff with it.
I for one would like to go on record that thinking like that is very dangerous, it not about optimism but dystopianism. And im sure that comment was just brought out because it is sometime hard to argue with
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