EMC - EE - Energy Condenser

[Hydra]

So, rather than ruining one of the only mods that actually introduces a new mechanic instead of just making new items and going down a tech tree (why we have EE3 which is going to be nerfed until you need 7 diamonds to turn dirt to stone) you could just have server owners turn it off. Server owners don't want to? that's their fault. That's like saying my mom won't let me drink alcohol so I should ban it for everyone.

Funny. Alcohol is "banned" in a lot of places where it has a damaging effect. As you know you are probably not allowed to drive under the influence in your country right? Atleast I hope so.

EE2 was damaging to server economies. Even the author (who spent all that time creating the mod) thought so. If you don't agree, fine, but you're wrong

 

[Chocorate]

If you don't agree, fine, but you're wrong

This is surely the classiest way to end an argument.

 

[Hydra]

This is surely the classiest way to end an argument.

That EE2 was damaging server economies isn't an argument.

 

[Katrinya]

I don't understand why I have to keep repeating myself.

I don't understand why you keep repeating yourself either. The last exchange can be summarized as:

Hydra: [Statement]. That's not opinion, that's fact!
Others: No, that's your opinion, not fact, because... [reasons]
Hydra: [Repeats statement]. That's not opinion, that's simple fact!

Saying so over and over doesn't make it so. Bottom line: there are tons of people who enjoyed playing with EE in a pack on a server, many of whom are (rudely) vocal in expressing their disappointment about the changes coming in EE3.

 

[Hydra]

I don't understand why you keep repeating yourself either.

Same goes for you. People are stating it has horrible consequences on servers. You, while admitting that you hardly used it aside from SP, are just whining about we are wrong in stating that it's a fact.

Seriously, this isn't a debate. I've seen what it does to servers: it's BAD. You can whine all you want about how I can't claim it to be anymore than an opinion but I DON'T CARE BECAUSE YOU ARE WRONG! We can keep doing this until the sun explodes for all I care! Ofcourse people like shortcuts, tons of (generally younger) players want the instant gratification where they can fly around in a gravichest in about 2 hours after logging in, but that doesn't change that EE2 had a very bad effect on server economies. It made servers pretty much creative mode servers where all that was left to do was to spend hours creating pixelart.

 

[Katrinya]

Same goes for you. People are stating it has horrible consequences on servers. You, while admitting that you hardly used it aside from SP, are just whining about we are wrong in stating that it's a fact.

Seriously, this isn't a debate. I've seen what it does to servers: it's BAD. You can whine all you want about how I can't claim it to be anymore than an opinion but I DON'T CARE BECAUSE YOU ARE WRONG! We can keep doing this until the sun explodes for all I care! Ofcourse people like shortcuts, tons of (generally younger) players want the instant gratification where they can fly around in a gravichest in about 2 hours after logging in, but that doesn't change that EE2 had a very bad effect on server economies. It made servers pretty much creative mode servers where all that was left to do was to spend hours creating pixelart.

Well, at least we've come to the core of our disagreement: your conviction that yours is the only opinion that matters while forming doctrine for your self-aggrandizing inquisition of Minecraft purity. I'm less interested in getting you to like EE than I am in persuading you (and others) that THERE IS NO RIGHT WAY TO PLAY MINECRAFT.

And with that, I've said my piece, and it's time to gracefully bow out.

 

[Hydra]

THERE IS NO RIGHT WAY TO PLAY MINECRAFT.

I think I made it pretty damn obvious that I feel you can play minecraft whatever way you want. It looks like you simply fail to understand the implications of mods that give more or less creative mode in SMP.

 

[Katrinya]

I think I made it pretty damn obvious that I feel you can play minecraft whatever way you want. It looks like you simply fail to understand the implications of mods that give more or less creative mode in SMP.

Ok, one more, then I'm done... promise.

Some people do not feel that EE destroys balance, even on a server. I can't speak for myself because I can't be bothered with SMP most of the time, but those people exist, you can tell they exist because they voice their opinion, and your assertion that EE=Creative Mode=OMG TEH HORROR is equivalent to suggesting that because you don't enjoy it, no one else should, either. Phrased another way, EE on a server is playing Minecraft the wrong way. You've actually made it pretty damn obvious that you think there is a right way to play, and that right way is YOURS.

You also implied that anyone who liked EE is immature (see: "they're younger players who like instant gratification") while simultaneously screeching "I DON'T CARE BECAUSE YOU'RE WRONG", so... yeah, that was ironic.

 

[Hydra]

Ok, one more, then I'm done... promise.

Yeah right

Some people do not feel that EE destroys balance, even on a server. I can't speak for myself because I can't be bothered with SMP most of the time, but those people exist, you can tell they exist because they voice their opinion, and your assertion that EE=Creative Mode=OMG TEH HORROR is equivalent to suggesting that because you don't enjoy it, no one else should, either. Phrased another way, EE on a server is playing Minecraft the wrong way. You've actually made it pretty damn obvious that you think there is a right way to play, and that right way is YOURS.

This isn't about me wanting to force my way, don't be ridiculous. If you want to go play on a Tekkit server with EE2 be my guest. I could not care less. I'm having a discussion here with some people who want to claim that the question "Did EE2 destroy the economical balance on servers?" is a matter of opinion. It is not. And it's quite obvious you haven't played it in SMP because if you would we would not have this discussion.

EE2 did destroy economical progression on servers so much that even the mod author thought it didn't have a place in modpacks and decided to discontinue it. And you, who hasn't played it on a server are saying that that's "just an opinion"? Bollocks.

I'm sorry my dear, but in some cases some opinions are simply invalid because the person who has that opinion is uninformed. And when it comes to EE2 balance in SMP you are just very uninformed.

You also implied that anyone who liked EE is immature (see: "they're younger players who like instant gratification") while simultaneously screeching "I DON'T CARE BECAUSE YOU'RE WRONG", so... yeah, that was ironic.

That's called a strawman argument. I said that many younger players like EE2 because of the instant gratification. Nowhere did I say that anyone who liked EE2 was immature nor did I imply that.

 

[Azzanine]

LOL people are talking about economy in minecraft? funny...

EE2 Felt like a convoluted way of attaining creative mode on a server, I feel that you save a lot of time and effort by just going to a creative server right off the bat. (but you do miss out on some of the stupidly overt god powers EE2 offers... Which is probably what players like)
But to say that it ruins the game/ servers is a bit of a stretch... Sure I might not like it but a hell of a lot of others do like the EZmode aspects to it, I mean humans are lazy beasts I'm pretty lazy too most of the time.

Here's a personal anecdote regarding EE2
I frequented a white listed tekkit server back in the day that banned EE2. This fact is why I chose the server, finding a No EE2 server was hard as everyone liked EE2 thanks to the Yoggcast craze.
The amount of players I saw that got through the white-list tried to make a philosopher stone to no avail asking "hey? how I make philosopher stone?/ is EE2 banned" the mods and admins always replied "If you had bothered to read our webpage you would have found that we disable EE2 on this server for reasons *blahblah*".
The player always replies "That sucks! Goodbye thanks for wasting my time/ your server sucks" and we never see them again. This was for the best, as we wanted a community that did not use EE2 as a crutch that negated all the other mods, but I'd be lying if I said that didn't affect the servers player numbers. The server also insisted on trying to foster an economy in a world where economy is just SO IGNORABLE that and after a while efficient IC2 UU production did the same thing EE2 did!

Due to my experiences with and in absence of the mod I find it very hard to buy that EE2 ruins servers when players can also leave up and leave if it's excluded. Empty servers = ruined if EE2 pulls players in it can't possibly be the prime reason a server get ruined. Of course it also ruins Minecraft lolconomies but the vanilla mechanics of Minecraft kind of do that by it's self.
Real life economies rely on the fact that a mere human being cannot produce everything. I am sitting in a chair, looking at a screen I bought. I could not realistically build either of these objects I use but I want/need them so I buy them from a company that can make them. In modded and vanilla Minecraft you can produce for yourself EVERYTHING given a moderate allocation of time. I mean these days you can find half a stack of diamond within your first hour if you are efficient. Economy is too ignorable in Minecraft for it to work regardless of EE2.

If the only EE2 haters argument is that it breaks artificially set up economies I think you need to create another argument. As far as I'm concerned the only argument I think holds at least a drop of water is how it trivializes the other mods in mod packs and fractures the progression path. But mixing mods that were not holistically designed from the get go will always produce these problems of balance.

Then again all those points are rendered moot as EE3 is going to be vastly different and speculated to be way more balanced. But I hope the creator is smart and allows for some extra option to let players opt in to the old style OP EE2 mode.
Because people actually really did like it and I'd hate to think that the poor bastards are forced to play minecraft 1.2 or whatever version EE2 is stuck on. While I don't like EE2 I can understand the fans rage at these what can only be perceived as nerfs.

 

[Hydra]

If the only EE2 haters argument is that it breaks artificially set up economies

I think you don't understand what people mean with economies. In the end, pretty much everything in FTB can be created quite easily, but getting to that stage takes quite a lot of time. Often you need several people working together on a server to create a proper supply of blazerods, enderpearls, wither skulls, etc. This is economy: there is a demand for those items (you need them to make certain items) but at the start there isn't a good supply for them, so people work together to create that supply. That's an economy. It doesn't really matter how stuff is created but it typically requires an investment that is proportional to what you get out of it.

Both EE2 and EE3 go against this by allowing you to turn stuff that's completely abundant into stuff that is relatively rare. This completely removes the requirement of people to work together on a server to create that supply. And if there is no requirement, people simply don't bother making an enderman farm or whatever if they have a single easy to make block that turns cobble or chicken eggs into diamonds.

So again: a server economy doesn't mean that a diamond will always have the same value. That's not how real economies work either (the value of diamonds in the real world is completely artificial). A server economy means that the players on that server see demand and want to create supply for it.

 

[Azzanine]

I think you don't understand what people mean with economies. In the end, pretty much everything in FTB can be created quite easily, but getting to that stage takes quite a lot of time. Often you need several people working together on a server to create a proper supply of blazerods, enderpearls, wither skulls, etc. This is economy: there is a demand for those items (you need them to make certain items) but at the start there isn't a good supply for them, so people work together to create that supply. That's an economy. It doesn't really matter how stuff is created but it typically requires an investment that is proportional to what you get out of it.

Both EE2 and EE3 go against this by allowing you to turn stuff that's completely abundant into stuff that is relatively rare. This completely removes the requirement of people to work together on a server to create that supply. And if there is no requirement, people simply don't bother making an enderman farm or whatever if they have a single easy to make block that turns cobble or chicken eggs into diamonds.

So again: a server economy doesn't mean that a diamond will always have the same value. That's not how real economies work either (the value of diamonds in the real world is completely artificial). A server economy means that the players on that server see demand and want to create supply for it.

That is true, well partially. Experience tends to differ depending on the server. I've been on servers that have had little to no cooperation other then that of already close friends, rare resources were actually jealously guarded, these being servers without EE2. But I have also seen people who worked together to build great things that have been EE2 enabled servers. Of course I've also seen examples of servers that went the way you described.

I still find the Lolconomy argument lacking though at least in regards to EE2. As I said I played on a server without EE2 that had a currency based economy and I did not participate at all the only thing I did with others was chat in game and via team speak I ignored their carefully established economy and only worked for myself. This lead me to the conclusion that the mod may not have as much influence on peoples camaraderie and low level economies as people believe. I think the personality of the players has more to do with things then the mods.

But I will admit EE2 does (or should I say did) have the *potential* to negate the NEED to work with strangers. I also think it was bit too rich and overt as to what powers it gave you, hence why I avoided it.
But to say EE2 was a terrible horrible mod that no one likes or should like and that it hurts the game is just plain dumb. Maybe those that like EE2 simply have no interest in this economy you speak of and gravitate to the style of gameplay that it provided.

 

[Hydra]

But to say EE2 was a terrible horrible mod that no one likes or should like and that it hurts the game is just plain dumb. Maybe those that like EE2 simply have no interest in this economy you speak of and gravitate to the style of gameplay that it provided.

I never said that people should not like the mod. I am saying that it more or less turns an "survival" SMP server into a "creative SMP" server and that's why I personally think it has no place there at all. But if people like that kind of gameplay, fine, go ahead The point is that you can't 'mix' people who want A with people who want B in this setup. I mean, it shows from your own experience that you guys decided to turn off EE2 (many server owners did) and that other people (ones that don't read) got annoyed with it. You can't mix the two. You also can't say "just don't use it" on a server because if half of the people do the other halves will still be in the stone ages while the others fly around in gravichests.

Both EE2 and EE3 cause problems because other mod makers make assumptions on the availability of items when they are 'tiering' their systems. For the "best" items you often need blazerods and enderpearls because the mod authors 'know' that the only way to get those is to kill mobs someway. Even EE3 ruins this by allowing you to fabricate blazerods and ender pearls defeating the purpose of mob farms. Ee2 was even worse. This is also "economy". With your comments on currencies and stuff I still feel you don't understand that there is an economy in every minecraft game or mod.

 

[Azzanine]

I never said that people should not like the mod. I am saying that it more or less turns an "survival" SMP server into a "creative SMP" server and that's why I personally think it has no place there at all. But if people like that kind of gameplay, fine, go ahead The point is that you can't 'mix' people who want A with people who want B in this setup. I mean, it shows from your own experience that you guys decided to turn off EE2 (many server owners did) and that other people (ones that don't read) got annoyed with it. You can't mix the two. You also can't say "just don't use it" on a server because if half of the people do the other halves will still be in the stone ages while the others fly around in gravichests.

Both EE2 and EE3 cause problems because other mod makers make assumptions on the availability of items when they are 'tiering' their systems. For the "best" items you often need blazerods and enderpearls because the mod authors 'know' that the only way to get those is to kill mobs someway. Even EE3 ruins this by allowing you to fabricate blazerods and ender pearls defeating the purpose of mob farms. Ee2 was even worse. This is also "economy". With your comments on currencies and stuff I still feel you don't understand that there is an economy in every minecraft game or mod.

Yeah the "don't like it don't use it" rhetoric falls flat (I'd say it crashes and burns) when it's used as an argument to justify or refute broken mechanics for new vanilla features whether it's SSP or SMP (The arguments way less valid in SMP though for the reasons you mention). But "don't like it don't use it" is in fact good advice referring back to my experience I did just that. It was a slog to actually find a community that was in full agreement that we did not want to use EE2, As everyone had a hard-on for EE2 and almost every server had it enabled. But I found one and had at least 9 months worth of play on it, built some shit, made a few acquaintances. We are lucky that FTB and Forge allow for the ability to actually be able to follow the advice "don't like it don't use it".
Of course my opinion would probably resemble yours if I could not find even one server suiting my preferences. Also if the server I established on decided "hell let's bring EE2 back" I probably would have been very annoyed. But I'd still be in the position to "not use it" but I would have been inconvenienced and rather miffed. But that would be at the server operator for flip flopping not the mod.
So case in point it's good advice but a terrible argument (and sometimes impractical).

Also regarding your definition of economy I think this is just a semantics issue here. When I think economy I think strictly in the terms of it being a system of trade and currency, this is probably a secondary and more modern definition I follow.
The fact I don't need to actually trade for what I want makes me personally think that economy in Minecraft is not that important due to it's ignorabiltiy. But I suppose me saying that economy doesn't or can't exist is just me asserting opinion as fact so I suppose I should stop that.
I think when you talk about economy you are speaking of management of resource (which covers both definitions really). Which you are right EE2 guts this aspect of the game fairly quickly as you don't need to set up logistics and supply lines things that could foster a sense of collaboration that might lead to more fun. The only thing I disagree about is how economy is relevant to everyones enjoyment possibly my opinion getting in the way again. But an economy isn't needed to be fun but I will admit it can enrich things but the game's not going to fall apart without it.

 

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I just wonder where people got the idea that they need a collector to get EMC, as it is probably one of the worst ways to generate passive EMC.

Cow + Bucket + Transposer + Timer. That'll produce more EMC than a Mk. III collector. Without needing any RM. Or DM. Or diamond blocks.

Heck, a Flax Capacitor generates more EMC than a mob grinder does. It also generally out-produces a collector flower. Even with creating bone meal to keep it going.

All of this can be done the moment you hit Redstone. Heck, you can get it set up before you set up your ore refinery.

So yea... creative mode. Nothing wrong with that, if that's your style of game play. It's just not mine.

 

[Hydra]

I just wonder where people got the idea that they need a collector to get EMC, as it is probably one of the worst ways to generate passive EMC.

Yup. There's too much stuff that you can autogenerate (seeds, wood, wheat, eggs) very easily that gives you a lot of EMC. Not to mention stuff like RP tungsten or gems. Moments after getting a condenser you're swimming in diamonds.

 

[Golrith]

Indeed, and most of those methods could have been easily fixed by removing the EMC value from those items, or reducing them to 1. I still think redoing the whole mod from scratch was a bit overkill, but, oh well, we just will have to wait and see what EE3 will offer in the future.

 

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Indeed, and most of those methods could have been easily fixed by removing the EMC value from those items, or reducing them to 1. I still think redoing the whole mod from scratch was a bit overkill, but, oh well, we just will have to wait and see what EE3 will offer in the future.

If you reduce the EMC value to 1, then you get to make them at a prodigious rate. Besides, there's too many things that you can produce automatically to nerf them all.

So yea, since the new plan incorporates overall better and cleaner code on the back-end, might as well fix the glaring issues at the same time.