DW20 and the paradox of choice

[Bagman817]

IC2 is seriously flawed if it can only be used in a modpack alongside its direct competition (as it were). i.e. if, for example, IC2 needs buildcraft pipes, who (in their right mind) would use an IC2 miner when there is the BC quarry available?

You've pretty much boiled down the complaints people have had with IC2 for the past year or so. I like IC2, and I enjoy the crafting changes they've added, as it makes things a bit more interesting (or complicated) to set up. That said, there's really no compelling reason to add IC2 to a pack other than you enjoy tinkering with it. It's a bit of a dinosaur, and that's fine, but if you try and compare it with more 'modern' mods, it becomes clear that it really hasn't changed since 1.2.5, and it shows.

Off that topic, I'm surprised no one mentioned Ender IO for item transport.

 

[GreenZombie]

I am struggling to make the miner viable. It's not that ic2 has been left behind... The miner just feels abandoned. If it was bumped up an energy tier ( or two) it would be more practical to power.

As it is I don't understand why it even has a slot for a RE Battery. The only practical way to power it seems to be a geothermal generator with universal fluid cells with lava.

 

[GreenZombie]

Oh I see ic2.ini has a configuration setting that drives the battery available to the miner.

I'm guessing dw20 didn't change it and that IS the default. Seems pretty silly... But I am reluctant to change it as I want to try ic2 'as it was intended'.

 

[Someone Else 37]

Oh I see ic2.ini has a configuration setting that drives the battery available to the miner.

I'm guessing dw20 didn't change it and that IS the default. Seems pretty silly... But I am reluctant to change it as I want to try ic2 'as it was intended'.

You could use an MFE or a MFSU, a few transformers, and some energy crystals or lapotron crystals to make the miner run longer before swapping batteries out. This would also let you recharge your wrench on the spot, to make picking the machines up slightly less of a pain.

However, I've never used IC2 miners other than one in MC 1.2.5 that seemed to randomly stop working at some point, even though I was giving it plenty of power.

Also note that you can feed IC2 machines redstone instead of energy, but even on the miner, it's probably a waste. In addition, single-use batteries are a thing, and they stack (or at least they did in 1.2.5).

 

[GreenZombie]

Single use batteries - and redstone - will have to wait until *after* I have a working miner setup. IC2 is resource hungry and without other mods supporting its insatiable maw, well, I have barely enough tin and redstone for crafting new components.

Also: I am guessing that it is not feasible to automate the ore washing plant or thermal centrifuge with ejector upgrades. I can get the principal ore products to move through the pipeline and be furnaced into ingots, but the tiny piles of dust and stone clog up the system. If I use hoppers (or a 2nd ejector upgrade pointing in a different direction?) then if the 2nd machine is still busy (And it will) then the principal products will be diverted into storage rather than kept for processing.

 

[midi_sec]

But I am reluctant to change it as I want to try ic2 'as it was intended'.

default configs? what are those? :3

 

[GreenZombie]

I can't believe how bad the ic2 pump is. It keeps getting stuck trying to suck up flowing lava so I've had to move most of the lava with a bucket.

I'm done with this p.o.s. Time to deploy a bc pump I guess

 

[namiasdf]

By the time I get my stone lumber axe, I have infinite fuel (cause trees) and things become rather trivial from that point.

 

[Azzanine]

IC2 from the get go relied on other mods for logistics.
IC2 has always been a companion mod to BC to be frank I don't really see a reason for this to change except to pointlessly compete with newer mods that provide logistics for their own utilities.

 

[GreenZombie]

IC2 from the get go relied on other mods for logistics.
IC2 has always been a companion mod to BC to be frank I don't really see a reason for this to change except to pointlessly compete with newer mods that provide logistics for their own utilities.

Logistics and the ability to chain some machines together using ejector upgrades into a compound machine are two separate issues. As it stands the ejector upgrades can't be used to chain a macerator, orewashing plant and/or thermal centrifuge together, meaning you must use a logistics mod (that pipes items outside machines) to perform what should be possible using upgrades.

If the assumption of IC2 is that it is a BC addon, why does it offer the miner (or pump) which are both badly outclassed by the BC quarry and pump?

 

[namiasdf]

It's more that BC and IC2 are the "OG" mods of modded MC. TE, Ender IO, etc. all benefit from seeing how successful a mod is when it includes ore doubling, logistics, upgrading, energy production, and to a lesser extent - armour/tools.

Though, I've only played since 1.4.7. Back in those days, BC was the bread and butter logistics next to RP2. IC2 was more prevalent than TE (TE was just getting big).

I don't think he meant addon, as in they were built to complement each other, more so that IC2 didn't include logistics, simply because BC existed and wanted to focus on other things, such as solar/wind/water/lava/biofuel/nuclear power generation, GT antics, etc.

Now mods are all about popularity, trying to monopolize on a players focus. That might be the key difference.

 

[GreenZombie]

@Azanor, of Thaumcraft fame, has what I consider to be the most rational approach to balancing his mod(s): The assumption is that his mod is being played in isolation, over vanilla.

This has two consequences for the mod - both good imo - first, outside of some best effort compatibility, he doesn't have to spend a lot of time re balancing his mod to fit in with the balance assumptions of other mods. On the other hand, he needs to make sure all his mod mechanics can be used in isolation of other mods.

Buildcraft is a mod that implicitly follows this philosophy - all the features of the mod can be used without depending on other mods. This is not to say it offers all the features one might expect in modded minecraft - there is no ore doubling / processing pipeline.

MFR does too - It is a lot easier to use with companion mods - but it adds enough items that items can be powered and all the processing it offers can be done in isolation of any other mods.

Many mods, both old-guard and new, seem able to offer overlapping and non overlapping functionality and remain internally consistent enough that they can be used in isolation of other mods.

In this, IC2 is broken, and always has been. I mean that features it internally offers, don't actually work: The pump is pathetically buggy. The ejector upgrades are expensive, but can't be used to chain IC2 machines. The default config of the miner seems intended to make a batpack a necessity rather than a convenience rendering the portable power cystals a stranger appendix (other than the pump and the miner (if there are other devices that make sense to be deployed portably I havn't reached that tier yet).

 

[Golrith]

Maybe current IC2 needs some minetweaking to overcome some of the current design flaws, so there's smoother progression within it's current environment.

In my innocence, back in 1.2.5 days, I thought BC pipes were actually part of IC2, once I learnt they were not, I found it really strange that the mod offered no way to transfer items between all it's various machines. Here we are at 1.7.10 and that still hasn't really changed.

 

[GreenZombie]

Maybe current IC2 needs some minetweaking to overcome some of the current design flaws, so there's smoother progression within it's current environment.

In my innocence, back in 1.2.5 days, I thought BC pipes were actually part of IC2, once I learnt they were not, I found it really strange that the mod offered no way to transfer items between all it's various machines. Here we are at 1.7.10 and that still hasn't really changed.

I don't have a problem with the IC2 progression. It is a lot more grindy than its modern competition sure. But its tolerable and gives you something to work towards.

The design flaws that really irk me right now don't appear minetweakable: the pump is just buggy -

And one of them relates to your second point - the mod DOES offer a way to transfer items between its machines. There is the ejector upgrade. And, given that one of the first things you will want to automate is the processing of ores, it utterly useless in the face of the multiple outputs from the ore washer and thermal centrifuge.

 

[Pandolu]

I would disagree, as no one uses the pump or miner in the face of others, that just do it better. With most mods being played in modpacks, you tend to play with the most effective methods of doing things, this is why buildcraft still reigns supreme in the mass-mining department, though arguably TE outclasses it logistically (itemducts being the only things capable of handling my output and sorting in my production line, where buildcraft pipes just explode). You'd keep this in mind when making a mod, as you don't want to do what everyone else has already done. You either improve or focus on other aspects, such as making everything unique. All forms of reactors in Monster for instance, all work differently and vary considerably in both complexity and size, where as with pumps and logistics, I dont think too much innovation can be done. Thus when looking at the experimental builds of IC2, you dont see a working pump or better logistics, you instead see more different stuff added, like the concept of more multi-stage ore processing (and metal forming... god, I wanted to ESCAPE gregtechs needless overcomplication by uninstalling that >.<).

 

[namiasdf]

It's more that BC and IC2 are the "OG" mods of modded MC. TE, Ender IO, etc. all benefit from seeing how successful a mod is when it includes ore doubling, logistics, upgrading, energy production, and to a lesser extent - armour/tools.

Though, I've only played since 1.4.7. Back in those days, BC was the bread and butter logistics next to RP2. IC2 was more prevalent than TE (TE was just getting big).

I don't think he meant addon, as in they were built to complement each other, more so that IC2 didn't include logistics, simply because BC existed and wanted to focus on other things, such as solar/wind/water/lava/biofuel/nuclear power generation, GT antics, etc.

Now mods are all about popularity, trying to monopolize on a players focus. That might be the key difference.

Ah yeah, good points.

 

[MigukNamja]

...though arguably TE outclasses it logistically (itemducts being the only things capable of handling my output and sorting in my production line, where buildcraft pipes just explode).

eIO has since surpassed TE in terms of logistics handling. Besides allowing for items, fluids, power, and redstone control in 1 block/space, eIO has better control and its item conduits are far less buggy than TE itemducts. Its Dimensional Transceiver is also better than the Tesseract, IMHO.

In other words, if you like TE, you'll love eIO

 

[ljfa]

its item conduits are far less buggy than TE itemducts.

That would probably be because it teleports items instantly, explaining the ender pearl in its recipe

 

[MigukNamja]

That would probably be because it teleports items instantly, explaining the ender pearl in its recipe

Yes, that's why I like them

 

[namiasdf]

Fixed for typos.

It's more that BC and IC2 are the "OG" mods of modded MC. TE, Ender IO, etc. all benefit from seeing how successful a mod is when it includes ore doubling, logistics, upgrading, energy production, and to a lesser extent - armour/tools.

Though, I've only played since 1.4.7. Back in those days, BC was the bread and butter logistics next to RP2. IC2 was more prevalent than TE (TE was just getting big).

I don't think he meant addon, as in they were built to complement each other, more so that IC2 didn't include logistics, simply because BC existed and wanted to focus on other things, such as solar/wind/water/lava/biofuel/nuclear power generation, GT antics, etc.

Now mods are all about popularity, trying to monopolize on a players focus. That might be the key difference.