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Disabling Vanilla Tools over tinkers

Discussion in 'General FTB chat' started by goreae, Mar 7, 2016.

  1. goreae

    goreae Ultimate Murderous Fiend

    One thing I've never quite understood is why packs decide it's a good idea to make vanilla tools useless and thus force the player to use tinkers construct. A lot of packs claim that it's more difficult, but really it's not. It's easy to make and upgrade a tinkers tool. And at the base a tinkers tool is much more powerful than a vanilla tool. So I don't see why requiring tinkers tools is harder!

    Now I get gating metal tools behind a smeltery. That's fine by me, but then why not make an iron pick require an iron pickaxe head? Why not make a diamond pick require cobalt instead of diamond? Maybe redpower gem tools require an alumite binding to keep the heavy gem head in place. There's so many more options.

    This is more aimed at infinity, how it requires the player to use tinkers tools and nerfs the vanilla tools into oblivion when you can make enderium cleavers and signalum crossbows with tinkers. It just doesn't make much sense to me, so I'd like to discuss it.
    RedBoss and Linda Hartlen like this.
  2. Aetherpirate

    Aetherpirate New Member

    I put Tinkers and Iguana's tweaks in my pack for fun, not so much to make it harder. Although "two sticks and some iron and you can mine anything" is quite a bit easier than "make a stencil table, pattern table, tool station, patterns, and gather tons of sand, clay, and gravel and smelt to make a forge, then make a better tool station, and now you can finally make metal tools."

    After this stage, very high power tools do become available. There are some configs you can tweak to adjust this somewhat. But I like the OP tools, and my focus is not on combat or manual mining (though the Hammer is like a BC Quarry)

    In any case, I added for fun and to change the early game up a bit. Like most things in modded Minecraft, it depends on your preferred style of play.
    RedBoss and goreae like this.
  3. goreae

    goreae Ultimate Murderous Fiend

    I can agree with gating vanilla tools behind the smeltery, but the stencil table etc., that's just a bunch of wood. It's not that hard to get to. And even so, you can add a recipe that makes the stone pick craftable with a stone/flint head.

    And I'm not saying that tinkers should be removed or disabled, I just don't like how vanilla tools aren't even an option. I can't see any reason why you would make them worthless, especially in infinity expert mode.
  4. Photoloss

    Photoloss New Member

    I believe it's largely a historical artifact. TiCon originally came up with the tool nerf as an optional choice for enforcing its own progression system independently of any modpack.
    Of course this concept got hosed in modpacks due to other means of obtaining the relevant materials like quarries, block breakers, magical transmutation or synthesis machines. Vanilla already had ways of bypassing it too, but raiding stronghold chests and trading with villagers arguably takes more effort than just progressing TiCon and, unlike certain mod mechanics, take your full attention and dedication.
    By the time Expert Mode was designed those systems were already in place, so it was easier to use them than to design and implement a new, more sensible option specifically for that. The vanilla tool recipes probably weren't changed to avoid crafting complications for other items. Good call too, because single-purpose autocrafting smelteries are bulky, ugly and low-tech.

    Why do you even want to use vanilla tools over all the modded, non-TiCon options though?
  5. Pyure

    Pyure Not Totally Useless

    I'm not actually a huge fan of TiCO in general. I dislike that a "hammer" is way more effective as a mining tool than a frickin' laser-drill from IC2.

    That said, I do like the idea behind streamlining behind gating tools through TiCo. And when I say streamlining here I mean that "simple" (non-electric) tools mostly flow through a specific set of general mechanics. Which is just good game design.

    I'm just less impressed with the actual implementation. The signalum crossbow isn't really specifically a great example of the problem goreae is discussing. Signalum in tico is just weirdly broken in general and should be fixed. The OP stuff should be addressed, but I'm not convinced that TiCo was a bad idea for the pack.

    @goreae, I actually don't understand your last paragraph at all. You mentioned making a diamond pick with cobalt instead of diamond (which would make it a...cobalt pick, no?). A key word you used was "require", but the whole point of TiCo was to allow dynamic construction of tools instead of a few preset shaped recipes.
    GreenZombie likes this.
  6. goreae

    goreae Ultimate Murderous Fiend

    I would like the option to use vanilla tools early-game. Also, especially in infinity, there's really no modded tools you can feasibly get until a little down the road, so you're forced to either use stone tools or tinkers tools. For the crafting thing, make the tools require an iron binding. You already have to automate gears with a smeltery, and the iron binding smeltery could just be the minimum size and work just fine.

    Also, I read the scripts in infinity evolved. They didn't use any config files to disable the tools. They couldn't with the current game mode system. All switching game modes does is replace the scripts folder in your save with the scripts for the chosen mode. They disable the tools by removing recipes, adding tooltips, and changing durability. It would be just as easy to add a new recipe that follows the technology flow instead of outright disabling them.

    I definitely agree with the first line. Notice nobody makes a terra shatterer even. There's no reason to when you can make a super fast rf-powered cobalt hammer with fortune 3 and auto smelt.

    I don't think TiCo was a bad idea for the pack. That's not what I'm trying to say. I'm saying that there's no reason to make vanilla tools useless.

    And for the diamond pick, I've seen cobalt used in place as diamond before, and it makes some sense. And the entire issue I have is that you can't use vanilla-type tools at all. You have to use tinkers tools. And with a diamond pick, as I said, make it require an alumite binding. Alumite is pretty cheap and is great as a technology barrier.

    And besides that, you in expert mode you get access to steel pretty early on as it's required for a lot of recipes, including manasteel. Once you get that, you can mine cobalt and ardite no problem. If you find a village and get some steel ingots or tools in a chest, you can get a minimum sized smeltery and just jump right to steel, make a nether portal and boom manyullyn. You can also find obsidian in a blacksmith chest, which also allows you to jump straight to alumite, causing the same jump.
  7. Pyure

    Pyure Not Totally Useless

    its a trillion times harder to balance the tools when they come from different angles. Forcing them all through tico was a fairly logical design choice under the circumstances: all the balancing elements come from the same set of parameters (durability, mining level, mining speed, etc) and they didn't have to worry about how a vanilla copper pickaxe compares to a copper pickaxe from tico (or have to force them to be equivalent somehow)
  8. Photoloss

    Photoloss New Member

    Your first complaint is IC2's fault. The laser is cool and all, but it's simply neither effective nor efficient for actual mining. Botania, Blood Magic (spell) and TTkami can easily keep up with TiCon for the endgame.
    Signalum was added by ExtraTiC, as was Enderium for that matter. TiCon without addons is much more balanced.

    I thought the whole point of Expert Mode was to have a kind of "tech tree" where you're forced to progress along certain paths before other options open up. Allowing vanilla tools either breaks TiCon progression or is a waste of resources depending on how they're balanced. Why do you even want to use them, a decently optimised TiCon tool is way better.
    And TiCon itself has a config option for "set vanilla tools to 1 durability", which existed long before Expert Mode.
    RedBoss likes this.
  9. goreae

    goreae Ultimate Murderous Fiend

    Infinity evolved doesn't even have an iguana style tiering system though. Once you get alumite, you have access to pretty much any ticon material, but no vanilla style tools really. Once you have a ticon setup, including a small smeltery, which is at minimum 36 seared bricks and 5 glass, which is not hard to get at all, you have access to copper, tin, bronze, iron, alumite, steel, electrum, invar, and probably more. There are no material tiers beyond stone, iron, diamond, alumite. One steel ingot and a small smeltery and you can harvest any material you want. Before you even get steel you can alloy lava and water to get obsidian for alumite! And that doesn't even require an iron level pick! No coke oven or blast furnace, no diamonds. Just a regular stone or flint pickaxe.

    Anyways the point I'm trying to make here, is it's clearly not a balancing decision. You don't have to worry if a player with a vanilla style shiny or diamond pick is any better than someone using tinkers because the tinkers player doesn't even need to make an iron level pick while the vanilla style player absolutely does. Alumite is around the same level as a vanilla diamond pick, just with less durability. It's also much cheaper at the cost of aluminum, iron, and obsidian, along with the tech costs of some sand, gravel, and clay, as well as a single bucket to scoop lava with. The tinkers user will win out as more powerful every time with the current setup. So why disable vanilla type tools as opposed to tweaking them?
    Specifically to the waste of resources comment: Why would vanilla tools being a waste of resources matter at all in a packmaking scenario? To the player yeah it's a waste. To the developer, if anyone cares about resource waste they'll go with the cheaper version.

    And the fact that vanilla ticon is more balanced isn't really a decent argument either because it does have extraTiC. It is overpowered as hell, and the by comparison entirely underpowered vanilla tools become nerfed for some reason.

    Allowing vanilla tools wouldn't break ticon progression if you tweaked them to follow ticon progression instead of tweaking them to be unavailable for use. Which wouldn't even be too hard. Just use certain smeltery parts in the recipe, like for example make an iron pickaxe require 3 iron, an iron binding, and a stick. It still requires a smeltery and follows ticon progression, but doesn't require the player to actually use a ticon tool. Instead it integrates the vanilla tool system into tinkers construct.

    I prefer vanilla tools because I happen to like them better. Having to make a new tool every once in a while isn't a problem for me. It's personal preference. I also think the tinkers tools are too powerful and using only vanilla style tools makes for a more unified experience, and encourages the use of modded tools like the terra shatterer, the mining drill, primal smasher, kami, etc. I'm not saying that tinkers is bad or should be removed, I'm saying I'd like the choice to use the type of tool that I like. It's just too easy to get a really powerful tool in tinkers for my taste. So I'd at least like the option to not use them.
  10. Pyure

    Pyure Not Totally Useless

    Saying its their "fault" isn't really fair either. Its not their fault if they don't want to play the "power inflation" game. Their tools are balanced for their mod, and if peeps want to play with "op" shit alongside their mod, that's technically the user's problem.

    Granted: they're getting left behind a bit as a result. A ton of popular mods *do* like playing the power inflation game.
    Linda Hartlen likes this.
  11. RenzosNips

    RenzosNips New Member

    Doesn't the laser drill mine a straight raycast? I don't see how it's comparable to hammers, since, while they are both mining tools, they fill different niches of mining tools.

    On the topic of disabling vanilla tools...
    Without Tinkers, the progression in most packs would be wood->stone->iron->diamond/simple electric->end game electric.
    With base Tinkers wood->stone->iron tinkers->alumite/steel tinkers->cobalt/many tinkers with electric added.
    So there really isn't much difference, and it's sometime I've struggled against as a pack maker (for my server, screw releasing anything to this community). I tried not adding Tinker's to my current set, but I prefer seeing slightly different end game tools then the same set of end game tools, so it's back in.

    The only way I see to "fix" this issue is by doing set bonuses/drawbacks. One tool auto smelts but only goes to... iron. One tool mines anything, but is super slow, one does a 3x3 but is not enchantable, etc.
    Horizontal progression would be fix for end game stuff. Beginning, you would pretty much have to disable vanilla to promote diversity.
  12. Pyure

    Pyure Not Totally Useless

    Good observations. I'd argue that prior to unique ore distributions, they could be compared the way you're discussing. In vanilla minecraft, there's not much reason to do "exploratory" mining where a long distance raycast is useful. In that respect, people might ask why the hell they'd wanna do that instead of just branch-mine with the hammer. Plausible exception: you are digging holes for reasons other than resource-gathering (maybe you're drilling a tunnel for a subway track or something)

    With stuff like GT ore distribution of course, its a different story. They fill different niches as you mentioned, and I can benefit from each tool in its niche: the laser for finding ores, the hammer for extracting them.
  13. Photoloss

    Photoloss New Member

    Requiring the smeltery for vanilla tools would cause the opposite problem of forcing people to maintain TiCon for autocrafting purposes later on, which many would perceive as being even worse.
    The point with ExtraTiC is that this is purely an FTB problem and TiCon is not to blame for it.
    If TiCon is too "easy" for your taste just don't make use of any ExtraTiC stuff or crossbows. The options you list are hardly "vanilla-style" either.

    It's their fault for calling it a "mining" laser. IC2's own handheld drill is better for actual mining. They're already in the "power inflation" business with never-breaking tools, never-die-armour and sustainable flight. Large-area manual mining without efficiency loss just isn't on the radar for that particular mod since you're supposed to use auto-miners instead.
  14. Pyure

    Pyure Not Totally Useless

    This is a bit of subjective silliness. Don't forget that it also has several other modes which (hypothetically) assist with mining. The naming is apt.

    4 wrongs don't make a right. Also, a self-balancing mod design. Its their prerogative to decide which things are end-game-you-win-minecraft toys.

    That said, I clearly should have been more specific and said "they don't want to play the power inflation game in this particular area."

    Agreed. I touched on this when I mentioned that they balance within their own mod.
  15. goreae

    goreae Ultimate Murderous Fiend

    Except you already have to maintain ticon for gears and draconic energy cores and things. You never stop using the smeltery in expert mode. And I wasn't really talking in terms of extraTIC either. Even in vanilla TIC, you can get super fast mining with a tool that never breaks and just runs on RF pretty easily. Without TiC, you need to use some other mod to get RF-powered tools. Or get botania self-repairing tools. And besides that point, you can get a hammer pretty quickly that's 9x more effective than a pickaxe. Even in expert mode, it just requires some power gen, a blast furnace, a metal former, and a compressor to get to that tier.

    And by "vanilla-style" I mean basically non-tinkers. Which you don't see used very often because tinkers is so much easier.Which really isn't the point I'm trying to make. In infinity evolved, it seems rather pointless to disable the vanilla type tools. As I pointed out, the argument that it'll make autocrafting more painful is a non-issue as you already need to craft with the smeltery at all points of the game. So why disable the vanilla tools?

    Again, I'm talking about giving the option for vanilla tools, not removing tinkers construct altogether. And promoting diversity doesn't really make much sense. Nobody makes manasteel tools, or thaumcraft elemental tools, or IC2 mining drills/lasers, or blood magic's tool creation system, or terra shatterers, because why would they when there's tinkers? If anything, tinkers discourages diversity. But again, that's not the point I'm trying to make. The point is the option for vanilla style tools early game would be awesome, so for people like me who would prefer to not use tinkers tools, the smeltery is just another crafting mechanic you have to go through to make tools. In expert mode, there would be little to no difference.
  16. RenzosNips

    RenzosNips New Member

    Says promoting diversity doesn't make sense, then gives a reason we need to promote diversity. Just needed to point this out

    Now for this. Everything is just another crafting mechanic. You want manasteel tools? Putting the iron in mana pools is just another crafting mechanic.
    You literally missed my point though. Nobody uses other tools other then the standard progression into whatever end game. They'll still ignore manasteel/thaumcraft's elemental tools. They'll still go wood->stone->iron->diamond/rf->OP endgame RF.
    You want to use vanilla style tools? That's your only point with this thread? Then use them. Find a different kitchen sink pack. The whole point of expert mode is the increased grind and interlinking stuff. Putting better tools behind Tinkers does exactly that. It's like playing Blood n Bones and then complaining it's too dumb because it makes mobs deadlier and that YOU like easier mobs.
    (Also, since I haven't played IE:E, can't use you manasteel and most other mod tools? I thought it was just VANILLA tools that were disabled? If so, you only need Tinkers for whatever you need to make the Manasteel)
  17. goreae

    goreae Ultimate Murderous Fiend

    I wasn't complaining about that. I never complained about the smeltery either. I see nothing wrong with gating behind the smeltery.
    And not the point I was really trying to make either. Just replying to reply.
    This is pretty much the same thing as saying "You don't like it? don't play it." And that's just wrong in this case. I like expert mode quite a bit. I just want a change that may make it better. I'm providing feedback on a pack that I do like in hopes that it may change for the better.
    The thing is, expert mode doesn't put better tools behind tinkers. Tinkers pretty much is the better tools besides maybe draconic evolution stuff or some of the ridiculous things like kami or blood magic. And even then you don't really need to make tinkers tools for that. Plus I've said it before, I don't mind gating tools behind tinkers progression. In fact that could actually be a good thing. The issue I have is all vanilla tools are made for crafting only, project red tools are uncraftable, thermal foundation tools are uncraftable, steel tools are uncraftable. Tweaking the recipe to use a tinkers tool part would work perfectly and fit the style of the pack quite well.

    Also, forcing the player to use tinkers tools does not increase grind, it does not do any interlinking, it does not encourage or force diversity. If anything, gating the creation of tinkers tools a bit farther in the pack, maybe after you get an alloy smelter, would do that. You would have to use vanilla type tools. You'd have to get into manasteel tools, IC2 power tools, blood magic tool forge if you want something better than just the regular vanilla tools. That would encourage diversity as you would be stuck on iron or diamond until you get something better. That increases grind (or at least doesn't decrease it like tinkers does), that encourages diversity. You could do some interlinking in those tools as well.
    As I said, no it's not. That would be true if I said infinity evolved is dumb because it's so hard and I like easier packs. Which I'm not saying. I'm saying that one facet of infinity is in my opinion dumb and I think it should be changed and the pack would likely be better off for it.

    Manasteel tools are makeable, but they're gated behind a blast furnace and a coke oven. You need the coke oven for the forge hammer to get the iron plates to make a cauldron for the petal apothecary and steel to actually make the manasteel. Besides that, you need to progress in thaumcraft and get the research for a balanced shard and warded jar, and get to tier two in blood magic which requires some witchery infrastructure to do, and you need a full mana pool. All to make a single mana tablet to power the manasteel pickaxe. But before that yeah, you could theoretically just use it as a normal mundane pickaxe.

    And it's not just vanilla tools that are disabled, it's also thermal foundation tools, quartz tools, project red tools, railcraft steel tools, IC2 bronze tools, and thaumium. Basically, any tool that doesn't do something special or is tinkers is either disabled or nerfed to death. It just doesn't make sense to me that they are.
    Linda Hartlen likes this.
  18. RedBoss

    RedBoss New Member

    To me, it would be more appropriate to change the mining levels of vanilla tools instead of rendering them useless. But then I'm definitely not the target user for Infinity.
  19. goreae

    goreae Ultimate Murderous Fiend

    for a pick with iguana tweaks or similar, sure that should work fine, but in infinity expert mode, the mining levels don't really matter. Once you get alumite in tinkers you can mine pretty much anything. Changing the mining levels won't really solve the issue, because the issue is that in the pack you need a smeltery in order to get metal tools, meaning being able to mine redstone, lead, silver, gold, diamond, etc. But as I said, changing the vanilla recipes to require tinkers parts fixes that problem entirely.
  20. Azzanine

    Azzanine New Member

    You only disable vanilla tools if you want TiCo to be the main tool mod. And that's purely an arbitrary decision. Pack makers do it because they think it's prudent. Making other tools useless might be the goal within it's self that or the pack maker prefers TiCo and doesn't care if other tool have been made useless.

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