Curse Client, FTB Packs and Linux

[bgh251f2]

And then we have those of us that think the pack quality is more important than the launcher...

And there are those that want to have a full experience not a half made one. If a group has support for your platform and all of a sudden they drop support(or make it harder to use their product on your platform) you can cope or stop using it. FTB modpacks haven't anything substantial for me to value them enough to keep using after they make it harder to play their pack on Linux. I have alternatives and I can, and will, use them.

The packs from the ATlauncher are good also, so I will not be losing the opportunity to play modpacks on Minecraft, I just won't be able to play FTB modpacks.

For you it's easier to say that the modpack is far more important than the launcher since you'll have both, but if I won't have the launcher the only thing I can get from the new launcher is a "I don't care about you" from the FTB team.

 

[VapourDrive]

And then we have those of us that think the pack quality is more important than the launcher...

I don't really care how nice a pack is if I can't play it
Imho people need to stop throwing linux under the bus. "Linux support will be one of the stretch goals" is extremely poor because odds are that stretch goal is never going to be properly met. You have an important portion of the userbase (albeit a relatively small minority) slapped in the face when you decide not to support it out of the gate.
At the end of the day I don't really mind because I personally am capable of setting up my own packs or even moving things around to get the mods and configs from an ftb pack to another launcher but it remains a matter of principle.

 

[Jadedcat]

Well they already said that they are not planning to do a Linux Curse launcher and that there "will be another alternative" and a "limited api". What does that mean? No one knows and no one bother to explain clearly.

Because none of us know yet how it will work. Anything we tell you would be a wild guess pulled out of thin air.

The stats have been checked again and again, and regardless of how some people complain on the forums, client SSP installs of modded minecraft on linux make up less than 2% of all modpack installs.

Its not that the team doesn't care, its that we don't know what the solution will be, and the small number of users make it unlikely Curse will be able to pay a programmer to focus on a linux based/compatible client any time soon. Its the same problem a lot of game companies have with supporting linux, there just aren't enough linux gamers to justify the cost of developing for linux. Linux while awesome, was not designed as a gaming platform. With 98% of gamers using Windows or OSx, linux is always going to be a lower priority for game companies of any sort. It wasn't that many years ago that OSx was in the same boat, but more gamers picked up OSx and now its a higher priority. Linux may one day get to the point where it has enough users that its on the same priority level as Mac and Windows, but right now it just isn't there. So development for Linux compatibility is going to be slower.

I don't really care how nice a pack is if I can't play it
You have an important portion of the userbase (albeit a relatively small minority) slapped in the face when you decide not to support it out of the gate.

Same as my above response. All the users are important. However 2% of users suggesting their operating system choice should be catered to at the same priority level as the other 98% of users isn't just a small minority, its a tiny minority,

I can understand the frustration if for some reason someone has a job where linux is the required operating system and you have to have your personal PC as linux to be able to work and pay bills. Otherwise OS is a choice. And linux users knowingly chose a OS that a majority of games are not developed for.

Its like if you had a dinner party for 500 people. And it was at a steakhouse. And 5 people were vegetarians. If the dinner host offers a vegetarian option, that's very accommodating of them. If they don't though, the vegetarians shouldn't demand that the kitchen make a new meal just for them with tofu steaks.

 

[RavynousHunter]

Not really surprised by Jaded's figures. From what I can recall, Linux represents (at best) around 2% of PC users, so the fact that we see the same numbers for modpack installs is hardly surprising. They're a minority; doesn't mean we shouldn't give them support where possible, but at the same time, making something that will only appeal to 2% of your total user base will almost never be a very high priority.

 

[Jadedcat]

THE FOLLOWING IS MY OPINION AND HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH CURSE OR FTB


On a personal non-FTB, non-Curse level, I really don't get it.

Users want the client to be ad-free. Curse agreed. This means the client does not directly provide any income to Curse. So any development funds for the client are paid for using funds from products that do directly provide income to Curse. No Linux developers are volunteering to work for free. Which means a Linux developer would have to be paid the same as the Mac and Windows developers to develop for something that doesn't directly provide income. The reason the various launchers have the issues they have is they are relying on developers that are either doing this as a hobby, or are not earning much of an income. The pack developers earn nothing, the mod developers earn nothing, the launcher developers earn nothing.

I am not really sure where people, especially non-americans get this idea that things that take specialized effort ought to be provided free and the people making the product ought to do it out of the goodness of their heart. They should take 80 hours a week and donate their work, and live on air and flowers. Yes some people are able/willing to develop mods/packs/launchers as a hobby. And we see one of a couple things happen,
1. They get burnt out on the demands users put on their hobby and they leave.
2. They get offered a real job where they can pay their bills and support their families and either they quit the hobby or they have less time for the hobby.
3. Someone figures out a way to turn the hobby into something that earns enough income to make it workable and users go nuts about "perverting the free hobby".

And its weird cause it seems mostly to be something that occurs with technology and gaming. Like no one expects me to use my hobby for jewelry making to make them free jewelry. Or for a carpenter to build a house for free. But somehow coders are expected to work hundreds of hours without pay. And then people wonder why their tech degrees can't get them a job. That's simple, no one wants to support coders coding. People think nothing of spending 5-6$ on a book, but coders should never expect payment. Well in the real world, people need money for bills, food, shelter. Which means they are going to give their best effort to tasks that provide an income. For companies to offer an income to coders they have to make an income themselves. If a specific project a company does does not directly provide an income by itself, the amount of paid positions in relation to that project is smaller in number. And when the number of paid positions are lower, things like direct support for a operating system very few of the companies customers use is a much lower priority.

So you have options, you have the free launchers, that have issues because hobby coders cannot put as much time and effort into support, but they will probably support everyone. Or you have a freely available client that has paid developers that are supported by a company that makes money (omg evil) but isn't as likely to pay a developer to work on Linux for a product that isn't directly earning an income. I don't work for accounting, I have no idea how the funds work, but honestly if the decision were up to me and I had to make the call I'd personally say to put any income that could go towards Linux development into the funds for the rewards program for authors.

I tried releasing my packs on ATLauncher. It took 6 months for them to get back to me on packs that had been out on FTB since last spring. While I have no personal issue with the official Technic packs, I am not willing to put my packs on solder. I do not personally support the idea of easily offering people a way around mod author's wishes regarding their content. And saying "well we aren't directly hosting the projects, we are just providing an easy way for people to install projects other people host, therefore its not our responsibility to protect author rights" is lazy and dis-ambiguous. Its the same thing pirate bay and mega upload pull. I don't like it, and I won't support it even by association by putting my packs on it. I considered it, it would be easy enough. And I would get a lot more publicity/users. I am just not willing to even suggest I support that type thing. I don't consider other people evil or bad for doing it, I just don't find that it fits my personal ethics.

Contrary to the fairy tale world a lot of gamers seem to live in, most people reserve their best effort for things that can earn them a living wage. Not get rich, but be able to afford food and clothes and a roof maybe even walls. So basically, if someone isn't charging you for access, and they find a way to earn an income without charging you a fee, and it even makes it possible to get a better product for most users, why on earth should you be upset because your installation might be a little more difficult because you choose to use a non support OS? Are you volunteering to pay developers to support your operating system choice? Of course not. Users even get upset of mod devs have ads to get a little income from their hobby. Its free. No one is charging you for access. Quite frankly if my local grocery store told me I could get my groceries by watching a few ads, I'd pull up a seat and watch the ads and be quite happy with my free food.

These issues pop up on almost every game I have seen. And I really don't get it.

 

[jikuja]

As far as I can tell, on the current FTB launcher until Curse launcher supports Linux.

It depends... I have not heard details about this but if curse client uses their own pack/mod backend and current backend is closed or not being updated anymore then current launcher won't work. (Or requires patching)

Anyway FTB launcher is still developed and new 1.4.5 is in beta phase and (imho) should be released if no new bugs are found.

Ps. Who should I poke to get more information about new curse client backend?

 

[bgh251f2]

Because none of us know yet how it will work. Anything we tell you would be a wild guess pulled out of thin air.

The stats have been checked again and again, and regardless of how some people complain on the forums, client SSP installs of modded minecraft on linux make up less than 2% of all modpack installs.

Same as my above response. All the users are important. However 2% of users suggesting their operating system choice should be catered to at the same priority level as the other 98% of users isn't just a small minority, its a tiny minority,

I can understand the frustration if for some reason someone has a job where linux is the required operating system and you have to have your personal PC as linux to be able to work and pay bills. Otherwise OS is a choice. And linux users knowingly chose a OS that a majority of games are not developed for.

Its like if you had a dinner party for 500 people. And it was at a steakhouse. And 5 people were vegetarians. If the dinner host offers a vegetarian option, that's very accommodating of them. If they don't though, the vegetarians shouldn't demand that the kitchen make a new meal just for them with tofu steaks.

The party analogy is wrong it should go like this: We have regular parties with 500 guests, 5 of them are vegetarians and we always have made vegetarian meals for them. We decided that they aren't worth the work and scrapped the vegetarian meal but said to them they can: a) eat meat or b) fix their own meal. They can enter the place but they will have to fix it up themselves or starve.

These vegetarians have the option to not go the party, to complain about it or to fix it themselves. If the community feels welcoming(which is becoming less and less with the time) they may try to stay. If not they will go to another party, and if they have good friends they will go with them. They complain if they want to stay, even though they are received with a "You are not wanted here your veggie, low paying, scum. You're just a minority, you should not feel welcomed. It was a mistake to have offered you a meal before and we're correcting it."

 

[Strikingwolf]

THE FOLLOWING IS MY OPINION AND HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH CURSE OR FTB


On a personal non-FTB, non-Curse level, I really don't get it.

Users want the client to be ad-free. Curse agreed. This means the client does not directly provide any income to Curse. So any development funds for the client are paid for using funds from products that do directly provide income to Curse. No Linux developers are volunteering to work for free. Which means a Linux developer would have to be paid the same as the Mac and Windows developers to develop for something that doesn't directly provide income. The reason the various launchers have the issues they have is they are relying on developers that are either doing this as a hobby, or are not earning much of an income. The pack developers earn nothing, the mod developers earn nothing, the launcher developers earn nothing.

I am not really sure where people, especially non-americans get this idea that things that take specialized effort ought to be provided free and the people making the product ought to do it out of the goodness of their heart. They should take 80 hours a week and donate their work, and live on air and flowers. Yes some people are able/willing to develop mods/packs/launchers as a hobby. And we see one of a couple things happen, 1. They get burnt out on the demands users put on their hobby and they leave. 2. They get offered a real job where they can pay their bills and support their families and either they quit the hobby or they have less time for the hobby. 3. Someone figures out a way to turn the hobby into something that earns enough income to make it workable and users go nuts about "perverting the free hobby".

And its weird cause it seems mostly to be something that occurs with technology and gaming. Like no one expects me to use my hobby for jewelry making to make them free jewelry. Or for a carpenter to build a house for free. But somehow coders are expected to work hundreds of hours without pay. And then people wonder why their tech degrees can't get them a job. That's simple, no one wants to support coders coding. People think nothing of spending 5-6$ on a book, but coders should never expect payment. Well in the real world, people need money for bills, food, shelter. Which means they are going to give their best effort to tasks that provide an income. For companies to offer an income to coders they have to make an income themselves. If a specific project a company does does not directly provide an income by itself, the amount of paid positions in relation to that project is smaller in number. And when the number of paid positions are lower, things like direct support for a operating system very few of the companies customers use is a much lower priority.

So you have options, you have the free launchers, that have issues because hobby coders cannot put as much time and effort into support, but they will probably support everyone. Or you have a freely available client that has paid developers that are supported by a company that makes money (omg evil) but isn't as likely to pay a developer to work on Linux for a product that isn't directly earning an income. I don't work for accounting, I have no idea how the funds work, but honestly if the decision were up to me and I had to make the call I'd personally say to put any income that could go towards Linux development into the funds for the rewards program for authors.

I tried releasing my packs on ATLauncher. It took 6 months for them to get back to me on packs that had been out on FTB since last spring. While I have no personal issue with the official Technic packs, I am not willing to put my packs on solder. I do not personally support the idea of easily offering people a way around mod author's wishes regarding their content. And saying "well we aren't directly hosting the projects, we are just providing an easy way for people to install projects other people host, therefore its not our responsibility to protect author rights" is lazy and dis-ambiguous. Its the same thing pirate bay and mega upload pull. I don't like it, and I won't support it even by association by putting my packs on it. I considered it, it would be easy enough. And I would get a lot more publicity/users. I am just not willing to even suggest I support that type thing. I don't consider other people evil or bad for doing it, I just don't find that it fits my personal ethics.

Contrary to the fairy tale world a lot of gamers seem to live in, most people reserve their best effort for things that can earn them a living wage. Not get rich, but be able to afford food and clothes and a roof maybe even walls. So basically, if someone isn't charging you for access, and they find a way to earn an income without charging you a fee, and it even makes it possible to get a better product for most users, why on earth should you be upset because your installation might be a little more difficult because you choose to use a non support OS? Are you volunteering to pay developers to support your operating system choice? Of course not. Users even get upset of mod devs have ads to get a little income from their hobby. Its free. No one is charging you for access. Quite frankly if my local grocery store told me I could get my groceries by watching a few ads, I'd pull up a seat and watch the ads and be quite happy with my free food.

Disclaimer: This is all my opinion and does not represent the PT or FTB's opinion
The only problem is that you could have easily used a cross-platform library or programming language and got the cross-compatibility for free. I agree that yall should pursue the things that make the most economic sense here, but by using a cross-platform langauge/library you wouldn't need extra devs

 

[Jadedcat]

The party analogy is wrong it should go like this: We have regular parties with 500 guests, 5 of them are vegetarians and we always have made vegetarian meals for them. We decided that they aren't worth the work and scrapped the vegetarian meal but said to them they can: a) eat meat or b) fix their own meal. They can enter the place but they will have to fix it up themselves or starve.

These vegetarians have the option to not go the party, to complain about it or to fix it themselves. If the community feels welcoming(which is becoming less and less with the time) they may try to stay. If not they will go to another party, and if they have good friends they will go with them. They complain if they want to stay, even though they are received with a "You are not wanted here your veggie, low paying, scum. You're just a minority, you should not feel welcomed. It was a mistake to have offered you a meal before and we're correcting it."

No in your analogy it would be

We have regular parties staffed by free workers, who supply their own ingredients, cookware, table linens and plates but sometimes the food is burnt, the linens are stained, the roof leaks and people get food poisoning. We have 500 guests, 5 of them are vegetarians and we always have made vegetarian meals for them. We hired professional cooks and provided quality ingredients, a weather proof building and clean tableware but the ingredients for the vegetarian meals cost more and since we don't want to charge for admission to the dinner we haven't figured out what we are going to provide as a vegetarian meal, but we have said until we have a solution paid for by us but free to the vegetarians, the chefs will cook the meal for them from the ingredients provided, but the vegetarians will have to serve themselves.

Disclaimer: This is all my opinion and does not represent the PT or FTB's opinion
The only problem is that you could have easily used a cross-platform library or programming language and got the cross-compatibility for free. I agree that yall should pursue the things that make the most economic sense here, but by using a cross-platform langauge/library you wouldn't need extra devs

Um, dude: "THE FOLLOWING IS MY OPINION AND HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH CURSE OR FTB . "Telling me to use cross platform support for my personal opinion.... umm sure. My opinion is freely available on linux/mac and windows. Not really sure what that has to do with my personal opinion on Linux support for games.

If you want to address Curse's choices I suggest you quote a Curse post, or address Curse, not my discussion of linux support in the gaming community as a whole.

 

[RavynousHunter]

Disclaimer: This is all my opinion and does not represent the PT or FTB's opinion
The only problem is that you could have easily used a cross-platform library or programming language and got the cross-compatibility for free. I agree that yall should pursue the things that make the most economic sense here, but by using a cross-platform langauge/library you wouldn't need extra devs

If they're working with an existing framework, then that is more easily said than done. Even switching to languages that compile into the same form (say, C# and C++/CLI) takes significant effort. It doesn't help that, at least in my experience, when you go to do something like that, you have to start almost completely from scratch. That takes a lot of time, and time equals money.

 

[Jadedcat]

Interestingly enough 9/10 times when someone says "easily" , "simple" etc in regards to code, they aren't volunteering to do it themselves, they have no actual idea what is involved in the process or anything beside "it can't be that hard... the internet says so". Well according to Surgeon Simulator brain surgery is pretty easy, want to let me operate on your brain?

 

[pc_assassin]

Ignore this, just posting to subscribe cause gingerbread tapatalk does not allow people to see where a thread is located

----------------------------------------------------
Sent From Something That You Won't Care About Using Tapatalk 2

 

[CoolSquid]

The party analogy is wrong it should go like this: We have regular parties with 500 guests, 5 of them are vegetarians and we always have made vegetarian meals for them. We decided that they aren't worth the work and scrapped the vegetarian meal but said to them they can: a) eat meat or b) fix their own meal. They can enter the place but they will have to fix it up themselves or starve.

Lets say the Linux version takes two months to complete. That is $8166 if we are using the Canadian average wages. You are demanding that Curse should use $8166 on 2% of its userbase! Curse is a business, and can't throw money out of the window. If Curse starts doing things like that, how are they supposed to pay wages to their employes?

 

[Jadedcat]

Lets say the Linux version takes two months to complete. That is $8166 if we are using the Canadian average wages. You are demanding that Curse should use $8166 on 2% of its userbase! Curse is a business, and can't throw money out of the window. If Curse starts doing things like that, how are they supposed to pay wages to their employes?

Double that. Cost to employ anyone is aprox 2 times their salary. Its salary + health benefits + employee tracking + whatever other overhead is involved... I am really glad I don't do accounting... or hiring.

 

[CoolSquid]

Double that. Cost to employ anyone is aprox 2 times their salary. Its salary + health benefits + employee tracking + whatever other overhead is involved... I am really glad I don't do accounting... or hiring.

So $16000. That's a lot for 2% of the userbase.

 

[ljfa]

So $16000. That's a lot for 2% of the userbase.

Where do you get the 2% from? Maybe 2% of computer users are using Linux, but that doesn't mean that it's 2% for the FTB users

 

[Jadedcat]

Where do you get the 2% from? Maybe 2% of computer users are using Linux, but that doesn't mean that it's 2% for the FTB users

We have stats of OS installs of the FTB launcher. Its slightly more than 1% of FTB users. We round up.

 

[CoolSquid]

Where do you get the 2% from? Maybe 2% of computer users are using Linux, but that doesn't mean that it's 2% for the FTB users

The stats have been checked again and again, and regardless of how some people complain on the forums, client SSP installs of modded minecraft on linux make up less than 2% of all modpack installs.

Ninja'd

 

[ljfa]

Nevermind, I should read before posting

 

[asiekierka]

Oh, hey. A topic I used to argue about for hours.

MultiMC has often expressed a will to support anything and everything. They are already hard at work to support installing and downloading Technic packs from within MultiMC; they also have their own mod package manager in testing that lets you install and update mods with a single click (not too far from what CurseForge offers), etc. In other words, they seem to be willing to support everything that makes lifes easier for their users. In addition, they already use Qt, making it run on Windows, Linux, Mac OS X, *BSD, you name it!

Why not come to them and offer them the chance to support FTB modpacks via MultiMC? That would solve the Linux issue fairly easily.