[CHALLENGE] (v4.3-ish 6/7/18) Refugee to Regent Kingdom Building Challenge

[Senseidragon]

Hmm, whats your guy's opinion on making flint to be required to make a crafting table, thus restricting production of tools or any "large" recipes until you acquire flint.

Making wood block + flint = crafting table recipe. Then perhaps have a recipe to make gravel/flint just in case its practically impossible to find the gravel. I was thinking of some small tool recipe, dirt, clay ball = flint shard. 4 flint shards = 1 flint.

You could set that up as an informal criteria for your personal challenge, you could use the Progression mod to lock the crafting table until flint is obtained, or you could ModTweak the crafting table recipe to also require flint. In that order of complexity and intrusiveness.

Personally, I'd stick with just making it a personal guideline for yourself if you feel it makes more sense to you. If you want to impose that rule on others, then add it as a criteria in the Progression mod as an 'unlock' for the crafting table, but once unlocked, actual crafting tables don't require flint to craft. This is less obtrusive to the game, and less likely to muck up other mods that may not like the recipe change.

If you want a more difficult starting experience, look into mods like "Improving Minecraft" or "Enviromine".

Personally, I wouldn't recommend Enviromine unless you're looking to get punished. If you do, add "Epic Siege Mod" at the same time -- you'll have an interesting first night in the game, I promise.

 

[Senseidragon]

Edit: Forgot this one. More for the "this looks neat" side, it also has some functionality much like TiCo crafting stations and Steve's Workshop

http://minecraft.curseforge.com/mc-mods/228653-werkbench

Thanks for pointing that out, @TomeWyrm! It looks interesting enough to add to my own test pack.

 

[Jinotad]

You could set that up as an informal criteria for your personal challenge, you could use the Progression mod to lock the crafting table until flint is obtained, or you could ModTweak the crafting table recipe to also require flint. In that order of complexity and intrusiveness.

Personally, I'd stick with just making it a personal guideline for yourself if you feel it makes more sense to you. If you want to impose that rule on others, then add it as a criteria in the Progression mod as an 'unlock' for the crafting table, but once unlocked, actual crafting tables don't require flint to craft. This is less obtrusive to the game, and less likely to muck up other mods that may not like the recipe change.

If you want a more difficult starting experience, look into mods like "Improving Minecraft" or "Enviromine".

Personally, I wouldn't recommend Enviromine unless you're looking to get punished. If you do, add "Epic Siege Mod" at the same time -- you'll have an interesting first night in the game, I promise.

I was just thinking that not having tools to work with is a piece of time that people just skip over. I was thinking expanding this time until you met a requirement could make it more interesting. Most likely I would go with the progression mod, and perhaps a combination of both progression and HQM. Requiring flint or cobblestone to unlock tools. (Hey they Mr. Creeper, mind making me some cobblestone?), and using the progression to restrict when you can break wood with your fists.

In addition I was thinking/wondering if the leaves could be modifies to have a 10% chance of dropping a stick when they are broken. This would allow people to get access to sticks without having to break wooden blocks. Using the HQM you can do a repeatable turn in of 8 dirt for 1 flint, then 2 sticks + 3 flint for your first axe allowing you to chop wood down. Thus dropping the restriction on harvesting wood.

I don't know, just idle ideas for these kind of challenges.

 

[Senseidragon]

I think Improving Minecraft gives sticks from breaking dead bushes, which I thought was useful.

 

[Zonnebrand]

@Senseidragon - thank you for the feedback.

I've been toying with AW2 combat NPCs as watchmen. Currently equipped with full leather armor, bow, and wood swords.
The best part about them is the upkeep for them and the priest. It puts a good use to the tons of food I had stored up from the dirt hovel stage.

Unfortunately they are terrible at combat. They spend most of their time running around in a circle once they've targeted something. Also, each time they die they drop all their gear.
I would consider keeping them around if not for the fact they lose their gear, and I have to go and collect it each time.

I will most likely transition to using Custom NPCs for guards going forward, and tune their stats for each stage. And maybe find a good way to dump food periodically.

 

[Senseidragon]

I agree on their lackluster performance as competent guards. I had to hire a priest and a medic full time to keep them alive. CustomNPCs was much easier to set up. I wish I could take the "food cost" aspect of AW2 and insert it into Custom NPCs. I like the workers and such from AW2 as well, but my problem isn't with them. The AW2 military definitely needs some work.

I wonder if I can code something up in ECMAScript to have Custom NPCs look for food out of a chest...

 

[Zonnebrand]

I agree on their lackluster performance as competent guards. I had to hire a priest and a medic full time to keep them alive. CustomNPCs was much easier to set up. I wish I could take the "food cost" aspect of AW2 and insert it into Custom NPCs. I like the workers and such from AW2 as well, but my problem isn't with them. The AW2 military definitely needs some work.

I wonder if I can code something up in ECMAScript to have Custom NPCs look for food out of a chest...

That's a good idea. Here is a psuedo version of of daily food check for guards I was thinking of:

//In the Update Tab - Check only at a specific time

switch(time)
{
case (morning): //check only at the morning of each day
if (check inventory at (X,Y,Z) is not empty) //can use a townhall inventory I believe
{
for(inventory length)//For number of items in inventory check each food type to remove 1 of that food
{
if(food(x) exists) //Might have to setup a food list in the initialization tab and set as tempdata
{ remove 1 food
break}
}
set combat to retaliate //so they will attack
}
else
{
set combat to retreat //set to not attack if no food
}
break
}

 

[TomeWyrm]

I was thinking that would be a great book to add for any version of these kind of challenges. This way everything you need to know is in the game, and you can check off the goals as you meet them.

The problem with that is that there's no enforcement or true guidance of any kind. It's just like looking it up on the wiki, having it printed out, having a physical checklist, or reading the forum post. For informal challenges, or those players that can easily restrict themselves? Sure Simple Achievements works wonderfully. It's that slight bit more convenient for a lot of people than the other methods.

The issue for me is that I gain nothing by using it. At all. I would rather have a printout than SA any day of the week. If I'm installing a mod (or mods) to help manage the challenge? It should be capable of doing things I couldn't do with a pencil and some scratch paper, in my honest opinion.

Things like Progression, Eureka, and HQM allow me to ENFORCE stages. They let me treat them as rules of the game much like "you can't jump more than 1.375 blocks without a jump boost effect" (At least I think that's the jump height... I don't want to go grab snow layers to check right now, and the point stands no matter the actual number). This is added capability, and IMHO that's what is required.

Especially when assembling a modpack specifically for a challenge, you should (if possible) have a mod that enforces this. Because you're going to get the average player using the pack, and nobody is perfect. I prefer actually not being able to space-cadet the rules. Like the Refugee to Regent Utilities mod by @Senseidragon. I can't forget that I'm not allowed to go underground without armor, because his mod makes it obvious when I do. If I were doing the Tree Spirit Challenge, a similar mod could drain health if I'm not standing on my tree. Similarly a mod like Progression can enforce the tech tree limitations; which are the single biggest draw for me, they're the carrot leading me through becoming a better builder. Getting access to the better tech is my driving force in this challenge, anything that actually enforces that is a good thing for me. Which is why I'm at least slightly against SA. It doesn't enforce, so why should I care when I COULD have enforcement?

I mean without the mod integration (which is nearly entirely tech restrictions), the challenges produced by @Maul_Junior and @Monarch_of_Gold might as well just be tiny (or maybe not so tiny) flavor expansions or additional restrictions on Iamchris27's original City Construction Challenge. The mod integration is really what sets these apart, because the authors are taking into account the massive changes that come when you allow mods. The horizons expand at a breakneck pace when you add the community content of which there is orders of MAGNITUDE more than vanilla, the interpretation of which without guidelines is something which turned me off from a lot of vanilla challenges; I can't play vanilla anymore, haven't been able to since 1.2.5, Mojang can't produce content at a quality level and speed that can satisfy me. Which is why I'm still peeved at the lack of the mod/plugin API that would open up the ability to take the modpack launchers to the next level, so even "vanilla" players could start experiencing the expanded content from mods. Mojang could focus on improving the bones of MC, and we'd quit getting updates that half the players couldn't care less about, and maybe get some bug fixes for issues that have been outstanding for over 9 major versions.

Anyway, where was that thought going? I honestly can't recall, but if it works for YOU? Go for using SA. Personally I would suggest if you're going to be making a pack? Try to get as much packside enforcement of important rules as you can, because players WILL cheat the system, often unintentionally, and that sucks IMO. I did it a lot with early versions of Agrarian Skies and Crash Landing, and it sucks when the author puts a lot of effort into making something work a certain way, and I know a mod interaction that lets me get unlimited free water in CL, or I skip entire quest trees in Ag Skies. The same thing happened in R2R when I played it a long time ago... I did things and then had to destroy items or rebuild buildings because I forgot the rules and screwed up. Mod/Pack based enforcement would have taken a lot of that burden off of me, freeing me up to build things instead of count a bunch and trying to remember the support rules, or go into a cave and have the GAME tell me when I've delved too deep. That aids in immersion and takes an amazing amount of cognitive load off of me. Simply Achievements? It can't do that in my estimation.

But seriously, if it works FOR YOU I'm not going to tell you to stop using it. Everyone works differently, and if something works for you, more power to you!

 

[Psychicash]

The problem with that is that there's no enforcement or true guidance of any kind. It's just like looking it up on the wiki, having it printed out, having a physical checklist, or reading the forum post. For informal challenges, or those players that can easily restrict themselves? Sure Simple Achievements works wonderfully. It's that slight bit more convenient for a lot of people than the other methods.

The issue for me is that I gain nothing by using it. At all. I would rather have a printout than SA any day of the week. If I'm installing a mod (or mods) to help manage the challenge? It should be capable of doing things I couldn't do with a pencil and some scratch paper, in my honest opinion.

Things like Progression, Eureka, and HQM allow me to ENFORCE stages. They let me treat them as rules of the game much like "you can't jump more than 1.375 blocks without a jump boost effect" (At least I think that's the jump height... I don't want to go grab snow layers to check right now, and the point stands no matter the actual number). This is added capability, and IMHO that's what is required.

Especially when assembling a modpack specifically for a challenge, you should (if possible) have a mod that enforces this. Because you're going to get the average player using the pack, and nobody is perfect. I prefer actually not being able to space-cadet the rules. Like the Refugee to Regent Utilities mod by @Senseidragon. I can't forget that I'm not allowed to go underground without armor, because his mod makes it obvious when I do. If I were doing the Tree Spirit Challenge, a similar mod could drain health if I'm not standing on my tree. Similarly a mod like Progression can enforce the tech tree limitations; which are the single biggest draw for me, they're the carrot leading me through becoming a better builder. Getting access to the better tech is my driving force in this challenge, anything that actually enforces that is a good thing for me. Which is why I'm at least slightly against SA. It doesn't enforce, so why should I care when I COULD have enforcement?

I mean without the mod integration (which is nearly entirely tech restrictions), the challenges produced by @Maul_Junior and @Monarch_of_Gold might as well just be tiny (or maybe not so tiny) flavor expansions or additional restrictions on Iamchris27's original City Construction Challenge. The mod integration is really what sets these apart, because the authors are taking into account the massive changes that come when you allow mods. The horizons expand at a breakneck pace when you add the community content of which there is orders of MAGNITUDE more than vanilla, the interpretation of which without guidelines is something which turned me off from a lot of vanilla challenges; I can't play vanilla anymore, haven't been able to since 1.2.5, Mojang can't produce content at a quality level and speed that can satisfy me. Which is why I'm still peeved at the lack of the mod/plugin API that would open up the ability to take the modpack launchers to the next level, so even "vanilla" players could start experiencing the expanded content from mods. Mojang could focus on improving the bones of MC, and we'd quit getting updates that half the players couldn't care less about, and maybe get some bug fixes for issues that have been outstanding for over 9 major versions.

Anyway, where was that thought going? I honestly can't recall, but if it works for YOU? Go for using SA. Personally I would suggest if you're going to be making a pack? Try to get as much packside enforcement of important rules as you can, because players WILL cheat the system, often unintentionally, and that sucks IMO. I did it a lot with early versions of Agrarian Skies and Crash Landing, and it sucks when the author puts a lot of effort into making something work a certain way, and I know a mod interaction that lets me get unlimited free water in CL, or I skip entire quest trees in Ag Skies. The same thing happened in R2R when I played it a long time ago... I did things and then had to destroy items or rebuild buildings because I forgot the rules and screwed up. Mod/Pack based enforcement would have taken a lot of that burden off of me, freeing me up to build things instead of count a bunch and trying to remember the support rules, or go into a cave and have the GAME tell me when I've delved too deep. That aids in immersion and takes an amazing amount of cognitive load off of me. Simply Achievements? It can't do that in my estimation.

But seriously, if it works FOR YOU I'm not going to tell you to stop using it. Everyone works differently, and if something works for you, more power to you!

So you're taking an open world sandbox game and giving the players a challenge to build but you want to restrict them infinitum?

You're actively going to restrict say stone tools. Make then uncraftable without a widget that you only get as a quest reward. So instead of a creativity toy you are instead giving out Scooby snacks for the good little follower that builds exactly what you're looking for. It has to be exactly as you're looking for because that's the only way the game can acknowledge it. So everyone is going to have the same boring 5x5 or 8x5 or whatever.

No creativity and nothing to separate them except apart from maybe the terrain. Oh look genericbuilder1 put his well next to dirty hut number 4 instead of next to dirty hut number 5. That's going to cost him some points. Wow he's so goofy. Doesn't he know he'll need those points to unlock the fences in stage 1 sub stage 87?

Stop trying to micro manage the players.

It's not about forcing people to play exactly how you want them to. It's about presenting a set of goals and seeing how they creatively achieve them. If you make those goals too specific or too restrictive then you're destroying the breathing room for creativity.

Edit spelling, silly phone

 

[VaalDeth]

R2R takes a pretty impressively long time to undertake, as evinced by the VERY long-running series of @The Mobius Archives and @VaalDeth;

This man speaks truth. <3

FYI: I will be recording again soon, life has been busy: I injured my shoulder pretty bad, AND am in the process of switching positions at work. Fun times! Also find that a little break now and again will keep me enjoying the project =)


Latest episode for any newcomers:

 

[Type1Ninja]

So you're taking an open world sandbox game and giving the players a challenge to build but you want to restrict them infinitum?

You're actively going to restrict say stone tools. Make then uncraftable without a widget that you only get as a quest reward. So instead of a creativity toy you are instead giving out Scooby snacks for the good little follower that builds exactly what you're looking for. It has to be exactly as you're looking for because that's the only way the game can acknowledge it. So everyone is going to have the same boring 5x5 or 8x5 or whatever.

No creativity and nothing to separate them except apart from maybe the terrain. Oh look genericbuilder1 put his well next to dirty hut number 4 instead of next to dirty hut number 5. That's going to cost him some points. Wow he's so goofy. Doesn't he know he'll need those points to unlock the fences in stage 1 sub stage 87?

Stop trying to micro manage the players.

It's not about forcing people to play exactly how you want them to. It's about presenting a set of goals and seeing how they creatively achieve them. If you make those goals too specific or too restrictive then you're destroying the breathing room for creativity.

Edit spelling, silly phone

Don't be too harsh, man. It's not micromanaging so much as it's preventing exploits, accidental or otherwise. The whole idea of a challenge like this is to give some structure to what can sometimes be an overwhelmingly open game. There are arguments for both restrictive and non-restrictive systems; don't hate on either one.

 

[TomeWyrm]

So you're taking an open world sandbox game and giving the players a challenge to build but you want to restrict them infinitum?

You're actively going to restrict say stone tools. Make then uncraftable without a widget that you only get as a quest reward. So instead of a creativity toy you are instead giving out Scooby snacks for the good little follower that builds exactly what you're looking for. It has to be exactly as you're looking for because that's the only way the game can acknowledge it. So everyone is going to have the same boring 5x5 or 8x5 or whatever.

No creativity and nothing to separate them except apart from maybe the terrain. Oh look genericbuilder1 put his well next to dirty hut number 4 instead of next to dirty hut number 5. That's going to cost him some points. Wow he's so goofy. Doesn't he know he'll need those points to unlock the fences in stage 1 sub stage 87?

Stop trying to micro manage the players.

It's not about forcing people to play exactly how you want them to. It's about presenting a set of goals and seeing how they creatively achieve them. If you make those goals too specific or too restrictive then you're destroying the breathing room for creativity.

Edit spelling, silly phone

You do realize that (to a monumentally less absurd degree) is what ALL of these challenges do, right? Give you a goal and put restrictions on what you're allowed to do while trying to meet that goal. That's why they're challenges

Also I never said ANYWHERE that is what I would do in any way shape or form. I'm not restricting them "to infinity", I'm attempting in-game enforcement of the rules you would ALREADY be following if you were undertaking the challenge. The challenge already restricts you from crafting stone tools until you complete a "quest", all I want is a mod to enforce that until I reach the stone age. If you go back enough pages, you'll notice that stage detection is a common (and currently not effectively surmounted) problem amongst those of us trying to mod-based stage enforcement. Even the structure-checking idea I had (a block modeled after the way Galacticraft checks for air-tight buildings) would only check for the raw requirements of a structure. It has to meet or exceed the building requirements which you would already be following anyway and not collapse. Nothing in that removes any more creativity than the challenge already did. I always try VERY specifically to leave as much freedom as possible while trying to (as @Type1Ninja phrased it) prevent exploits. Obviously nobody can program in the Rule of Cool. But that's why everyone that's trying to tackle this runs it past the rest of us for ideas.

I honestly don't know where you got the concept that my ideas were even in the remotest ballpark of that extreme, but trust me. I'm not looking to turn people into robots following blueprints, I'm just trying to search for a method of integrating the challenge rules into the game as best we can without sacrificing build freedom.

 

[Psychicash]

You do realize that (to a monumentally less absurd degree) is what ALL of these challenges do, right? Give you a goal and put restrictions on what you're allowed to do while trying to meet that goal. That's why they're challenges

Also I never said ANYWHERE that is what I would do in any way shape or form. I'm not restricting them "to infinity", I'm attempting in-game enforcement of the rules you would ALREADY be following if you were undertaking the challenge. The challenge already restricts you from crafting stone tools until you complete a "quest", all I want is a mod to enforce that until I reach the stone age. If you go back enough pages, you'll notice that stage detection is a common (and currently not effectively surmounted) problem amongst those of us trying to mod-based stage enforcement. Even the structure-checking idea I had (a block modeled after the way Galacticraft checks for air-tight buildings) would only check for the raw requirements of a structure. It has to meet or exceed the building requirements which you would already be following anyway and not collapse. Nothing in that removes any more creativity than the challenge already did. I always try VERY specifically to leave as much freedom as possible while trying to (as @Type1Ninja phrased it) prevent exploits. Obviously nobody can program in the Rule of Cool. But that's why everyone that's trying to tackle this runs it past the rest of us for ideas.

I honestly don't know where you got the concept that my ideas were even in the remotest ballpark of that extreme, but trust me. I'm not looking to turn people into robots following blueprints, I'm just trying to search for a method of integrating the challenge rules into the game as best we can without sacrificing build freedom.

To a certain extent, yes the challenges put restrictions on. However again like you mentioned rule of cool.
For instance I decided I didn't like the helmet rule. To me it didn't make any sense for shallow cave diving to try to keep enough leather on hand to keep making helmets. At least until I could find enough iron etc etc. I don't care for it so I removed it for me.

Are you going to say "oh looks like you didn't wear a helmet so you were not actually following the challenge. Sorry" is that what this has devolved into? A serious challenge with prizes on the line so serous it requires a rule nazi? Because that is what hqm is. It's a rule check to keep right reigns and make sure everything was followed to the letter.

Mod packs that require you to follow to the letter are more in line with questing or story driven packs or maps. A building challenge shouldn't be so stringent is all I was saying.

To be honest using galactic craft a check won't work. The entire , what first two stages, are dirt. The whole of the land is dirt. The only reason that works is because there's contrasting materials. It presents a huge problem. So there are some realistic solutions. One is to provide a builder type block and have them deposit x number of dirt or other building material and it builds a y by z size building. Or have them turn in x number of dirt or whatever and reward them with similar blocks with nbt data on it to use in the check.

Ok but now you have to ask. How many blocks should I give? This answer will restrict, no matter how much or little you give, the possible structures you can build with it. This is its nature. If that's what you want to do though, that is certainly fine. Some people may or may not like the restrictions. I personally do not. Personally I think hqm is good for some things. I love obscurity. But it's not what I would call a building pack. If anything it's a challenge map. Hqm works great.

Sky factory, hqm would be horrible. It's a building pack.

Seriously though in this case, it's restrictive to its detriment in my opinion.

 

[Jinotad]

Tome, I can definably agree with you about having the game enforce the rules for you. I've been working on the castle challenge as a starting point using FTB: Horizon and I've been having fun with it. Unfortunately for me, my handwriting is horrible, and I don't' have an accessible printer. So I am stuck checking back into the wiki every hour or so. Having all of the information included inside of the game would be great.

The other reason I was suggesting Simple Achievements is the fact that it can (theoretically) be added to ANY modpack without any real conflicts to be resolved. I don't know if this would actually work, but the idea being that you could just take the mod file and add it to the Forge Mod folder and have it in the game you are playing on. No other changes needed.

This is different to having a modded Minecraft dedicated to the challenge itself, which takes it to a completely different level as you pointed out.

As for making modpacks, I have had ideas for them, but have no real knowledge of how to go about making/putting them together. Heck, I've even ran threw a lot of ideas for a new mod focused around the tree spirit concept. I know some programing, but would have no idea of where to even begin developing a mod itself. Still I just have fun throwing ideas around.

 

[Senseidragon]

[...]
For instance I decided I didn't like the helmet rule. To me it didn't make any sense for shallow cave diving to try to keep enough leather on hand to keep making helmets. At least until I could find enough iron etc etc. I don't care for it so I removed it for me.

Are you going to say "oh looks like you didn't wear a helmet so you were not actually following the challenge. Sorry" is that what this has devolved into? A serious challenge with prizes on the line so serous it requires a rule nazi? Because that is what hqm is. It's a rule check to keep right reigns and make sure everything was followed to the letter.

I think you might be misconstruing what TomeWyrm and others are trying to say. In the R2R challenge, the Rule of Cool trumps all the other rules. If you don't like a rule, change it. FOR YOU. Nobody will think any less of your efforts if, as you cited, you decided the "wearing a helmet" rule was silly. If you don't like it, change it and continue on. Likewise, if someone else DOES like it, don't fault them or call them out on their choices. For myself, TomeWyrm and others throughout this thread, we all have our own particular ideas of what this challenge should be. Not all of our ideas are going to align 100% with what others think, and that's perfectly cool. All I believe TomeWyrm was trying to explain was that FOR HIM (and myself, at minimum) is that it is desirable to have where possible, additional mod or script assistance to help us adhere to the rules and restrictions we've already chosen for ourselves. Not in any way obligating others to "do it this way or you're doing it wrong".

I, for example, liked the idea of being somewhat claustrophobic and thus needed some form of protection before venturing underground. I could easily have just made a mental note not to do so and let it go at that. But I would sometimes find myself in a cave without proper protection and realize after far too long that I really shouldn't have been there. For ME, it was desirable to have something remind me that I wasn't supposed to go underground without protection. So I coded up a quick little mod that helped remind me with non-fatal potion effects whenever I broke the restrictions I chose to place on myself.

Likewise, the original challenge pretty much ignores villagers, and relies on the player to 'pretend' all the buildings and crops and chests full of loot are being consumed and used by their growing empire. That didn't work so well with me, so I started adding Custom NPCs into the challenge. As I completed a building and all of its requirements, I'd spawn in a Custom NPC to represent the villager or elder or whatever that was supposed to live there. Are custom NPCs necessary for the challenge? Nope. Do they make it easier for some people to interact with and get more involved with the challenge? I think so. But if it doesn't work for someone, they don't have to use them. Rule of Cool. If it doesn't float your boat, pitch it overboard.

As for the reference TomeWyrm made to a block that would check structure integrity, that is quite achievable. Though not trivial, it is not really difficult either. You don't have to be super picky about checking block types either. You can set it to be as restrictive (it must be an air-tight structure, or you get sucked into space, or infected by the killer virus) or as permissive (I can count an internal volume of 20 air blocks within a non-air-block bounding box, therefore it counts as a structure) as you like. It could increment a scoreboard counter for you, give you a text message saying the structure qualifies, spawn in a villager, or give you a cookie. The only reason we don't have one is because nobody (myself included) took the time to actually sit down and write one. It's not exactly a general-use feature as described. The key even with this though, would be to make it configurable enough that it could satisfy both what I think qualifies as a valid structure, and what YOU think qualifies as a valid structure. Otherwise it is as you stated earlier, just restricting player choices into whatever the developer who wrote it thought they should be.

In any case, the discussion about what-ifs, scenarios, and possible issues or ambiguities is good. Hopefully it can continue in a healthy and constructive fashion.

 

[Inaeo]

I don't know what mods you're using, but what you describe sounds an awful lot like a "warded" version of a mob. Do you have Thaumcraft installed?

Warded mobs have a bit of a damage shield on them that needs to be broken down first before any real damage can be done to them. If you have sounds enabled, you should also hear a distinct sound when hitting a warded opponent.

I do have Thaumcraft in the pack (its my main magic mod), but this doesn't seem to be a warded mob. The sound is that of damaging a normal mob. In the WAILA box, it tells me he has 25 armor, and I've had him trapped in a pit of Punji Sticks for over an hour without effect. I found a diamond sword and Potion of Strength in the camp, and even combined, not a point of damage. Next on my list of things to try is a TiCo Rapier (since it bypasses armor), which, luckily, was already on my to-do list. I know I can drown him if need be, but it won't count as a player kill, and I'm not sure if that will mess anything up with the AW2 progression (or if that's even a thing - I'm completely new to the mod).

 

[Type1Ninja]

I do have Thaumcraft in the pack (its my main magic mod), but this doesn't seem to be a warded mob. The sound is that of damaging a normal mob. In the WAILA box, it tells me he has 25 armor, and I've had him trapped in a pit of Punji Sticks for over an hour without effect. I found a diamond sword and Potion of Strength in the camp, and even combined, not a point of damage. Next on my list of things to try is a TiCo Rapier (since it bypasses armor), which, luckily, was already on my to-do list. I know I can drown him if need be, but it won't count as a player kill, and I'm not sure if that will mess anything up with the AW2 progression (or if that's even a thing - I'm completely new to the mod).

25 armor points is 100% invincibility, but given using vanilla armor code. Each point is a single half-shirt; there are 25 potential armor points, 20 of which are shown on your player's gui. Given that information, a rapier will kill it (probably).

 

[Psychicash]

I think you might be misconstruing what TomeWyrm and others are trying to say. In the R2R challenge, the Rule of Cool trumps all the other rules. If you don't like a rule, change it. FOR YOU. Nobody will think any less of your efforts if, as you cited, you decided the "wearing a helmet" rule was silly. If you don't like it, change it and continue on. Likewise, if someone else DOES like it, don't fault them or call them out on their choices. For myself, TomeWyrm and others throughout this thread, we all have our own particular ideas of what this challenge should be. Not all of our ideas are going to align 100% with what others think, and that's perfectly cool. All I believe TomeWyrm was trying to explain was that FOR HIM (and myself, at minimum) is that it is desirable to have where possible, additional mod or script assistance to help us adhere to the rules and restrictions we've already chosen for ourselves. Not in any way obligating others to "do it this way or you're doing it wrong".

I, for example, liked the idea of being somewhat claustrophobic and thus needed some form of protection before venturing underground. I could easily have just made a mental note not to do so and let it go at that. But I would sometimes find myself in a cave without proper protection and realize after far too long that I really shouldn't have been there. For ME, it was desirable to have something remind me that I wasn't supposed to go underground without protection. So I coded up a quick little mod that helped remind me with non-fatal potion effects whenever I broke the restrictions I chose to place on myself.

Likewise, the original challenge pretty much ignores villagers, and relies on the player to 'pretend' all the buildings and crops and chests full of loot are being consumed and used by their growing empire. That didn't work so well with me, so I started adding Custom NPCs into the challenge. As I completed a building and all of its requirements, I'd spawn in a Custom NPC to represent the villager or elder or whatever that was supposed to live there. Are custom NPCs necessary for the challenge? Nope. Do they make it easier for some people to interact with and get more involved with the challenge? I think so. But if it doesn't work for someone, they don't have to use them. Rule of Cool. If it doesn't float your boat, pitch it overboard.

As for the reference TomeWyrm made to a block that would check structure integrity, that is quite achievable. Though not trivial, it is not really difficult either. You don't have to be super picky about checking block types either. You can set it to be as restrictive (it must be an air-tight structure, or you get sucked into space, or infected by the killer virus) or as permissive (I can count an internal volume of 20 air blocks within a non-air-block bounding box, therefore it counts as a structure) as you like. It could increment a scoreboard counter for you, give you a text message saying the structure qualifies, spawn in a villager, or give you a cookie. The only reason we don't have one is because nobody (myself included) took the time to actually sit down and write one. It's not exactly a general-use feature as described. The key even with this though, would be to make it configurable enough that it could satisfy both what I think qualifies as a valid structure, and what YOU think qualifies as a valid structure. Otherwise it is as you stated earlier, just restricting player choices into whatever the developer who wrote it thought they should be.

In any case, the discussion about what-ifs, scenarios, and possible issues or ambiguities is good. Hopefully it can continue in a healthy and constructive fashion.

Like I said for me hqm is a horrible solution. Of course we're talking about a challenge that is apparently constantly evolving and not finished or undefined. So as a work in progress I'm not trying to be harsh as ninja put it.

I am saying that hqm puts the player in a box and constrictes creativity. If that works for you then great.

 

[Inaeo]

25 armor points is 100% invincibility, but given using vanilla armor code. Each point is a single half-shirt; there are 25 potential armor points, 20 of which are shown on your player's gui. Given that information, a rapier will kill it (probably).

Good to know, and thanks for the insight. Does anyone know why they were programmed to be invincible? Is there a quest to deal with them? Is there something I'm missing?

 

[The Mobius Archives]

for example, liked the idea of being somewhat claustrophobic and thus needed some form of protection before venturing underground. I could easily have just made a mental note not to do so and let it go at that. But I would sometimes find myself in a cave without proper protection and realize after far too long that I really shouldn't have been there. For ME, it was desirable to have something remind me that I wasn't supposed to go underground without protection. So I coded up a quick little mod that helped remind me with non-fatal potion effects whenever I broke the restrictions I chose to place on myself.

That is a neat little twist. Adding nausea/blindness etc when going underground without a helmet..

I was playing around with Enviromine (way back) trying to get the cave to collapse when not using appropriately placed beams. Worked a little too well and my base collapsed in on itself. My store room has finally been cleaned up after many months without that mod.

I also remembering strip mining just so I didn't need to go underground when digging for resources. That I felt was a realistic "Rule Of Cool" exploitation of the existing helmet rule as it was open air, even if it did go deep, and I'd need to put in the effort of expanding manually to get the more valuable resources.