Mod Feedback [By Request] RotaryCraft Suggestions
- Thread starter Reika
- Start date
They seem out of place in your mods. Plus a considerable amount of other things.
Anyways, time to make bedrock disappear.
No, its not. They're an end-game toy, they're far, far easier to make than lesser toys in other mods, and if someone doesn't want them its fully justified that they should want them disabled.
You're correct. Disregard bootlickers and narrow minding people.
I've never managed to think of a way to work RoC into a difficult, balanced pack. I hope you have luck here.
I do agree they are out of place in such a verismilitude-focused mod, but they're kinda "the point" of it in the first place. It takes everything to 11, and unbreakable tools is something you get (in some way or another) in nearly every mod these days.
I mean, do what you want... but that's like grabbing Project E for the Red Matter as a building block. You're completely missing the point of the mod, basically.
I mean, do what you want... but that's like grabbing Project E for the Red Matter as a building block. You're completely missing the point of the mod, basically.
I see two views of thought on bedrock tools:
1. They make everything else obsolete. It's bad enough that there are "perfect" vanilla tools -- tool X with enchants Y-Z is the best, and no other tool can compare. It's not a case of "Enchantment set A has one set of benefits and problems, enchantment set B has a different set", etc. It's just one thing.
Now, there's a slight difference. For picks, the best silk touch tool, the best "high speed stone removal", and the best "fortune" tool. But there's one best ore harvester, one best stone removal, and one best silk touch (ice, and a few special blocks) tool.
With shovels or axe, there's even less choice. Ditto armor, swords, bows, etc.
Now, some mods add in extra enchantments, or re-work the basic stuff. Maybe protection shouldn't be better than all the specialized protections, or maybe it should be so expensive in levels that you're OK with a specialized protection instead. Maybe there's enchantments on weapons that conflict with "increase damage" that you find useful in combat -- maybe a "vampiric regen" (heal when you hurt someone), etc. Many mods exist to increase choice/flexibility/options, and eliminate the "best" concept.
Bedrock tools (initial experimentation) take "best" up to 11. So this removes options.
2. Bedrock, and bedrock tools, is really late. Late game. You don't get there early. So, yea, by the time you get "11" tools, think of all the other things you could have done. It does not remove options, it gives you a new option of longer, slower, deadlier.
Bedrock tools fit into the philosophy of overpowered end game.
===
Should tools wear out?
In a multiplayer game with any concept of an economy, everything has to be discarded. Anything that does not get forced to be discarded by the game piles up, and becomes dirt cheap surplus.
In any sort of MMO game, of any kind, where you want an economy, nothing can last forever. Whether it's an explicit wear, "bind on equip" plus "becomes obsolete", etc -- everything has to go.
In a single player game? Not so much. Some people like the idea of constant upkeep; some people like the idea of "I can repair this, but each time it gets harder, until it has to be remade". Others want "Just give me some moss, and I'll stick it in a permanent day world for repair", or "it's got one durability, and a battery, I'm fine".
Does minecraft have any sort of player economy? Not that I've ever really seen. No economy, no need to force shortages.
Does minecraft require upkeep to play? Not really.
Single player: What do you like?
Multiplayer: Minecraft really is not competitive unless you are trying to destroy others' work/builds.
1. They make everything else obsolete. It's bad enough that there are "perfect" vanilla tools -- tool X with enchants Y-Z is the best, and no other tool can compare. It's not a case of "Enchantment set A has one set of benefits and problems, enchantment set B has a different set", etc. It's just one thing.
Now, there's a slight difference. For picks, the best silk touch tool, the best "high speed stone removal", and the best "fortune" tool. But there's one best ore harvester, one best stone removal, and one best silk touch (ice, and a few special blocks) tool.
With shovels or axe, there's even less choice. Ditto armor, swords, bows, etc.
Now, some mods add in extra enchantments, or re-work the basic stuff. Maybe protection shouldn't be better than all the specialized protections, or maybe it should be so expensive in levels that you're OK with a specialized protection instead. Maybe there's enchantments on weapons that conflict with "increase damage" that you find useful in combat -- maybe a "vampiric regen" (heal when you hurt someone), etc. Many mods exist to increase choice/flexibility/options, and eliminate the "best" concept.
Bedrock tools (initial experimentation) take "best" up to 11. So this removes options.
2. Bedrock, and bedrock tools, is really late. Late game. You don't get there early. So, yea, by the time you get "11" tools, think of all the other things you could have done. It does not remove options, it gives you a new option of longer, slower, deadlier.
Bedrock tools fit into the philosophy of overpowered end game.
===
Should tools wear out?
In a multiplayer game with any concept of an economy, everything has to be discarded. Anything that does not get forced to be discarded by the game piles up, and becomes dirt cheap surplus.
In any sort of MMO game, of any kind, where you want an economy, nothing can last forever. Whether it's an explicit wear, "bind on equip" plus "becomes obsolete", etc -- everything has to go.
In a single player game? Not so much. Some people like the idea of constant upkeep; some people like the idea of "I can repair this, but each time it gets harder, until it has to be remade". Others want "Just give me some moss, and I'll stick it in a permanent day world for repair", or "it's got one durability, and a battery, I'm fine".
Does minecraft have any sort of player economy? Not that I've ever really seen. No economy, no need to force shortages.
Does minecraft require upkeep to play? Not really.
Single player: What do you like?
Multiplayer: Minecraft really is not competitive unless you are trying to destroy others' work/builds.
... umm ... what mod has something harder to make that is weaker?
I'm assuming you are referring to how bedrock is unbreakable in Minecraft. Your tools are an alloy of steel and bedrock dust. Would it be acceptable to think of the tool as the steel degrading but not the bedrock? Like if there was a config option to make the tools have durability, have the config make the tools drop an appropriate amount of dust?
Pretty much exactly that.
Also as to whether or not tools should wear out... public consensus seems to be "no thanks, that's obnoxious". The methods of preventing that are varied and diverse... repair, instant full repair on break, no durability, charge, durability that drains "charge" to heal itself, ease of manual repair... the list goes on and on, but the way things are now, basically no common-use tool breaks anymore.
Conflicting information.
The mod is well thought out and has balanced much since the last FTB public pack.
Check out the useful facts and info page. There is some relevant info for items thought to be overpowered.
TomeWyrm, what on earth are you talking about. How can you say that the unbreakable tools are the point of RoC when so many players want to nerf/remove them? Your point is already 100% disproven. There's no logical argument to that, period.
Yes, its the point for some people. You could make and possibly back up an argument that its the point of the mod for some huge number of players. But Reika himself will tell you that since the dawn of RoC the #1 target for most players has always been the Extractor.
(The #2 target has been players trying to cheat around the Extractor's mechanics)
Gregtech. Any power tool. I achieve bedrock tools far more quickly, and GT tools are comparably weak.
Good discussion on unbreakable tools versus an economy btw. Fifteen years ago this exact discussion had me and three other programmers at each other's throats trying to streamline an RPG design. Your general view prevailed.
About the tools, though. In infinity, I can create a pick with TiC that has both silk touch and an insane mining speed. It also has an insane durability behind it, to the point I really haven't thought about needing to repair it. Also, the unstable ingot pickaxe from ExU comes to mind.
There are plenty of other tools that completely outstrip most of the bedrock tools, especially the pickaxe. The only thing that the bedrock pick axe, for example, has for it is that it can mine spawners. But again, multiple mods have easier or more op ways of getting spawners.
Good counter-argument; some of the tools are less concerning than others. The worst offender that immediately comes to mind is the axe. That thing is fun as hell to watch in action but has no place whatsoever in a pack where people are supposed to progress to electric chainsaws which are relatively weak. No fault of Reika's: those tools should be more like his. But in the meantime the theoretical simplest fix is to remove the single powerful tool, not adjust dozens of weaker ones.
You're thinking of the pickaxe of destruction: that's another tool that comes up frequently in balance discussions. Fortunately there are workarounds to either disable it or gate it later.
I'll agree with the axe being the one that stands out. The lumberaxe from TiC does a similar effect, but only up to a maximum amount of blocks. The bedrock axe has no issues with the whole tree. I learned this the hard way with a redwood tree... So. Many. Blocks.
Seeing as I caused a discussion here, let me explain what I am going to do.
It should work. It's pretty simple.
1). I set the bedrock layer to one using COFH core.
2). I use COFH core to spawn in unbreakable blocks in nether, before the bedrock. (Both the top and bottom of the nether)
3). Set bedrock to spawn rarely in another dimension that will require mid to late game items to get there. In that dimension, bedrock will spawn rarely, and be rare enough that making bedrock tools would not be the first thing you should do.
Ya know, maybe instead of removing them altogether, Reika might be more accepting of allowing people to gate them thru other mods' late-game stuff (like say, ichorium). Also, the only two things that really stand out to me as far as the bedrock tools go are the axe and sword. The sword for the high damage and looting, and the axe for obvious reasons. Or, uhm, here's an idea: if you don't like the tools then, I dunno, just don't use 'em? If you really don't have the self-control to not bum rush thru RoC and get them ASAP, then you have more problems than just a single tool that can cause issues if misused.
But, seriously, Py? You're saying it should be balanced against Gerg? The hell with that. I don't play with RoC to go thru sixteen crafting steps and wait on several obscenely slow machines just so I can have an iron pick. Also, have you actually tried getting those tools? Its not like TE or IC2 where you can just throw resources at it til it works. It takes me at least two weeks of almost exclusively playing thru RoC just to get a bedrock breaker working smoothly, let alone getting the blast furnace hot enough to alloy the bedrock ingots. As far as I know, since the workaround with ElectriCraft was fixed, there's pretty much no way outside maybe some trickery with industrial coils to even run a bedrock breaker before you've got jet fuel. Jet fuel requires tonnes of infrastructure to get a steady supply, and that infrastructure requires more infrastructure of its own to also work smoothly. We're talking timers, magnetizers, ethanol production, mob farming (or bees, if you're into that sorta thing), lubricant fabrication, gearing, item transportation, crafting automation, fluid transportation, the works. By the time you've gotten to the point of getting bedrock tools, you're likely just a hair away from breaking into ReactorCraft and making your first HTGR.
But, seriously, Py? You're saying it should be balanced against Gerg? The hell with that. I don't play with RoC to go thru sixteen crafting steps and wait on several obscenely slow machines just so I can have an iron pick. Also, have you actually tried getting those tools? Its not like TE or IC2 where you can just throw resources at it til it works. It takes me at least two weeks of almost exclusively playing thru RoC just to get a bedrock breaker working smoothly, let alone getting the blast furnace hot enough to alloy the bedrock ingots. As far as I know, since the workaround with ElectriCraft was fixed, there's pretty much no way outside maybe some trickery with industrial coils to even run a bedrock breaker before you've got jet fuel. Jet fuel requires tonnes of infrastructure to get a steady supply, and that infrastructure requires more infrastructure of its own to also work smoothly. We're talking timers, magnetizers, ethanol production, mob farming (or bees, if you're into that sorta thing), lubricant fabrication, gearing, item transportation, crafting automation, fluid transportation, the works. By the time you've gotten to the point of getting bedrock tools, you're likely just a hair away from breaking into ReactorCraft and making your first HTGR.
Ravynous, this solution works for many players. You I gather? But for another large segment, pretending things in a game don't exist breaks immersion. For me, I don't like working towards a difficult goal knowing there's a win-button off to the side that I can press at any time to skip ahead.
That's my personal preference, but I don't discriminate versus one type of player or the other, and prefer to design and implement solutions that work for both. In some cases that's impossible, but when an improvement is simple, the "don't use it" argument just annoys me.
No, I'm not saying that. That would be insane. But I am saying that *I* might want to, in a GT-centric pack. Or TC-centric pack. Or Some Other Grindy Pack. Throwing up the argument "its really hard work to achieve so you deserve the outcome" therefore only works when you can adjust the hard work and/or outcome around of the various pieces to make it work.
In this case (a hypothetical GT/RoC pack), nobody would ever, ever, ever make an electric GT tool because they could achieve superior bedrock tools much more easily. (Citation: in my current GT world, approximately 1 month of regular play, I haven't achieved a single GT Electric Tool yet. They're gated behind Stainless Steel which is HV tech I believe)
Thank god we have mine/modtweaker now. The vast majority of mods can now be adjusted thus, and we're seeing the best MC modpacks ever as a result.
I played RoC since Horizons came out. I stayed involved with its development for months, posting tutorials and anecdotal pieces on it and its addons. I added it to several packs and regularly submitted bug reports and concerns.
Yes, I've made those tools.
Good argument. And don't the good ind. coils require bedrock dust themselves?
I traditionally merged the output of 4 plebe coils iirc to get bedrock. I gather this is no longer possible?
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