Mod Feedback [By Request] RotaryCraft Suggestions

[HeilMewTwo]

He doesn't let that happen because of the people that will freak out when they see different recipes than are advertised, and Reika gets enough people like that as-is.

I was about to respond with people can't be that stupid, then I remembered the wall.

 

[JOBGG]

Hell, I freak out on regular intervals regarding rotarycraft, like "Why wouldn't I be able to do that"...and then I understand, and feel stupid.

 

[abculatter_2]

He doesn't let that happen because of the people that will freak out when they see different recipes than are advertised, and Reika gets enough people like that as-is.

Pandering to idiots seems like the absolute worst direction he could go with this kind of mod, and that's also why I suggested the above no-modpack clause. Forcing the player to install a mod manually weeds out a lot of the idiots who can't simply drag a mod into a folder, and I would also add that there be a disclaimer clearly visible before the download saying to assume bugs are caused by the addon first.

 

[Pyure]

Pandering to idiots seems like the absolute worst direction he could go with this kind of mod, and that's also why I suggested the above no-modpack clause. Forcing the player to install a mod manually weeds out a lot of the idiots who can't simply drag a mod into a folder, and I would also add that there be a disclaimer clearly visible before the download saying to assume bugs are caused by the addon first.

Also, the addon I was suggesting would really only be used by GT users, which generally are generally at least reasonably intelligent.

I've gone down this road with Reika a million times. He won't cave. My recommendations:
1) Reika will allow you to make changes to the "entry" block of ROC (the blast furnace). This might be useful for some sort of balancing (not really since at best you'd still be pushing his "early" game stuff into mid/late game)
2) Just minetweak it anyway. Modders who are against modding...I have reduced patience for this. (Apologies Reika. Your stance on this specific subject isn't well thought out, and your counter-arguments fail simple cost-benefit analysis.)

 

[RavynousHunter]

That's the thing though, that's part of Reika's license for DragonAPI and its constituent mods. There can be addons, so long as said addons don't harm the internal consistency of his mods, so long as you don't tread on his toes, basically. What you propose would harm the internal consistency of RotaryCraft, and would likely effect ReactorCraft, as well, since said ore multiplication makes getting into the mod less of a chore, and may well even be nigh-essential once you get around to designing a fusion reactor, because of the absolutely insane amount of magnetite you need to get the thing built up.

Honestly, I agree with Reika's position. I make the mod, then I or my team are the ones that controls the destiny of said mod, unless I open source it. If I made a stand-alone mod, then I would have a very explicit clause, much like Reika's, that would forbid any addon or mod author from altering said mod's internal mechanics in any way, shape, or form. They can utilize said mechanics all they like, but I balanced the mod the way I did for a reason, and people hacking into it to change things about could end up fudging the entire thing. However, I would of course be open to balancing suggestions for the mod itself.

Like it or not, RotaryCraft is a standalone mod. It has some bits for inter-mod compatibility, but it doesn't go out of its way to adhere to anyone's idea of balance except Reika's. Greg's idea of balance is fundamentally different, and likely anathema to Reika's, making the two incompatible. Once again, to put it extremely bluntly: if you don't like the way RotaryCraft handles ore multiplication, then don't use it. No one is forcing you to use his mod's content over Greg's. If his is superior to Greg's in the modpack's environment, then...well, again, don't use it if you don't like it. Or, alternatively, you could lobby your modpack creator and/or server admin to remove RotaryCraft in favour of GregTech because one may imbalance the other. However, if you take that route, I advise you to be prepared to hear a lot of laughter at your expense, assuming the modpack author and/or admin aren't your friends.

 

[abculatter_2]

That's the thing though, that's part of Reika's license for DragonAPI and its constituent mods. There can be addons, so long as said addons don't harm the internal consistency of his mods, so long as you don't tread on his toes, basically. What you propose would harm the internal consistency of RotaryCraft, and would likely effect ReactorCraft, as well, since said ore multiplication makes getting into the mod less of a chore, and may well even be nigh-essential once you get around to designing a fusion reactor, because of the absolutely insane amount of magnetite you need to get the thing built up.

Honestly, I agree with Reika's position. I make the mod, then I or my team are the ones that controls the destiny of said mod, unless I open source it. If I made a stand-alone mod, then I would have a very explicit clause, much like Reika's, that would forbid any addon or mod author from altering said mod's internal mechanics in any way, shape, or form. They can utilize said mechanics all they like, but I balanced the mod the way I did for a reason, and people hacking into it to change things about could end up fudging the entire thing. However, I would of course be open to balancing suggestions for the mod itself.

Like it or not, RotaryCraft is a standalone mod. It has some bits for inter-mod compatibility, but it doesn't go out of its way to adhere to anyone's idea of balance except Reika's. Greg's idea of balance is fundamentally different, and likely anathema to Reika's, making the two incompatible. Once again, to put it extremely bluntly: if you don't like the way RotaryCraft handles ore multiplication, then don't use it. No one is forcing you to use his mod's content over Greg's. If his is superior to Greg's in the modpack's environment, then...well, again, don't use it if you don't like it. Or, alternatively, you could lobby your modpack creator and/or server admin to remove RotaryCraft in favour of GregTech because one may imbalance the other. However, if you take that route, I advise you to be prepared to hear a lot of laughter at your expense, assuming the modpack author and/or admin aren't your friends.

I can accept this, though I feel that Pyure put my opinion on it best with the quote, "Modders who are against modding...I have reduced patience for this." (Though, for me it's more being slightly irked then a loss of patience)

 

[Pyure]

Like it or not, RotaryCraft is a standalone mod. It has some bits for inter-mod compatibility, but it doesn't go out of its way to adhere to anyone's idea of balance except Reika's. Greg's idea of balance is fundamentally different, and likely anathema to Reika's, making the two incompatible. Once again, to put it extremely bluntly: if you don't like the way RotaryCraft handles ore multiplication, then don't use it. No one is forcing you to use his mod's content over Greg's. If his is superior to Greg's in the modpack's environment, then...well, again, don't use it if you don't like it. Or, alternatively, you could lobby your modpack creator and/or server admin to remove RotaryCraft in favour of GregTech because one may imbalance the other. However, if you take that route, I advise you to be prepared to hear a lot of laughter at your expense, assuming the modpack author and/or admin aren't your friends.

These are all very good arguments. I don't really say much against any of them. They only fail because modded MC is a modding environment. Mods are created based on the notion of "I think I can make what came before different." Whether its better or worse, balanced or insane, is completely irrelevant and outside the scope of the author's mandate. If I want to make a reactor that creates 10MJ/T or 1000 TW/T, that's my game, my business, my problem. Any argument I've seen to the contrary thus far fails this test.

Some modders, say E. Beef as a fringe example, get this: they have their mods be fully configurable so that people can be as stupid as they like with them. These modders don't suffer as a result of this (or at least, no more than Reika does with the incessant calls for compatibility and configurability)

I support Reika and his mods; his organic design methods are clever. He strives for unique takes on ideas. He avoids obvious balance pitfalls. I appreciate these. But he also takes a stance of "creativity goes as far as me and no further", and that is anti-modding.

 

[Celestialphoenix]

Like it or not, RotaryCraft is a standalone mod. It has some bits for inter-mod compatibility, but it doesn't go out of its way to adhere to anyone's idea of balance except Reika's. Greg's idea of balance is fundamentally different, and likely anathema to Reika's, making the two incompatible. Once again, to put it extremely bluntly: if you don't like the way RotaryCraft handles ore multiplication, then don't use it. No one is forcing you to use his mod's content over Greg's. If his is superior to Greg's in the modpack's environment, then...well, again, don't use it if you don't like it. Or, alternatively, you could lobby your modpack creator and/or server admin to remove RotaryCraft in favour of GregTech because one may imbalance the other. However, if you take that route, I advise you to be prepared to hear a lot of laughter at your expense, assuming the modpack author and/or admin aren't your friends.

Removing a mod- especially on the scale of RoC/Gtech- would pretty much annihilate everyone's worlds/builds, or just end up with everyone re-adding it/going somewhere else.

Why not adjust Greg's ore lines to match Reika's?

Or re-work a few things to provide a certain -non breaking- bonus to using Greg's equipment. (like reduced infrastructure cost- endgame RoC still has the highest output, but Greg's kit is cheap enough for mid-game use; End game Greg is about the same as mid-game RoC)
​

 

[abculatter_2]

Removing a mod- especially on the scale of RoC/Gtech- would pretty much annihilate everyone's worlds/builds, or just end up with everyone re-adding it/going somewhere else.

Why not adjust Greg's ore lines to match Reika's?

Or re-work a few things to provide a certain -non breaking- bonus to using Greg's equipment. (like reduced infrastructure cost- endgame RoC still has the highest output, but Greg's kit is cheap enough for mid-game use; End game Greg is about the same as mid-game RoC)
​

Greg's ore processing actually already does have an advantage by providing more varied byproducts, but 5x ingots from ores is just impossible to balance around with the way Gregtech's balance is set up. Unless you made it easymode by making the macerator give 3x and later tiers of processing give 5x, but for most people this is really just against the spirit of Gregtech. Some people would probably like it, though, and I wouldn't be against such a mod.

Also, certain extractor byproducts- namely silver giving iridium and iron giving tungsten- can be hugely unbalancing in a GT environment. (The tungsten less so then the iridium) I'm not sure if there are other byproducts that are quite so unbalancing.

EDIT: Also, an unrelated suggestion: It would be nice to have an equation in the handbook for determining the friction heater's temperature at various power inputs.

 

[RavynousHunter]

These are all very good arguments. I don't really say much against any of them. They only fail because modded MC is a modding environment. Mods are created based on the notion of "I think I can make what came before different." Whether its better or worse, balanced or insane, is completely irrelevant and outside the scope of the author's mandate. If I want to make a reactor that creates 10MJ/T or 1000 TW/T, that's my game, my business, my problem. Any argument I've seen to the contrary thus far fails this test.

Some modders, say E. Beef as a fringe example, get this: they have their mods be fully configurable so that people can be as stupid as they like with them. These modders don't suffer as a result of this (or at least, no more than Reika does with the incessant calls for compatibility and configurability)

I support Reika and his mods; his organic design methods are clever. He strives for unique takes on ideas. He avoids obvious balance pitfalls. I appreciate these. But he also takes a stance of "creativity goes as far as me and no further", and that is anti-modding.

While very agreeable and well-reasoned, I notice one flaw in your argument, that Reika's attitude is "anti-modding." He's not saying you can't create an addon to his mod, he's just asking that you don't mess with the mechanics in his mods. Even a cursory look at RotaryCraft shows that its balance and tech progression was extremely well thought-out, and a lot of the machines depend on one another, sometimes in ways that aren't readily obvious. Meddling what that could cause an undesirable balance shift and could throw the entire mod out of whack, something nobody wants.

 

[Evillevi]

While very agreeable and well-reasoned, I notice one flaw in your argument, that Reika's attitude is "anti-modding." He's not saying you can't create an addon to his mod, he's just asking that you don't mess with the mechanics in his mods. Even a cursory look at RotaryCraft shows that its balance and tech progression was extremely well thought-out, and a lot of the machines depend on one another, sometimes in ways that aren't readily obvious. Meddling what that could cause an undesirable balance shift and could throw the entire mod out of whack, something nobody wants.

[missing the point entirely]all the exploits - direwof20 [/mtpe]

On to a less stupid post, Reika's design is for a mod to be challenging and he took steps to ensure that. And in that Reika does have a right to say that no, don't mess with my mod since it was never meant to be used as anything other than this challenging mod.

At any rate I was enjoying the frustration of trying to get from the magnets engines to gasoline/jetfuel. then school assignments pop up

 

[abculatter_2]

While very agreeable and well-reasoned, I notice one flaw in your argument, that Reika's attitude is "anti-modding." He's not saying you can't create an addon to his mod, he's just asking that you don't mess with the mechanics in his mods. Even a cursory look at RotaryCraft shows that its balance and tech progression was extremely well thought-out, and a lot of the machines depend on one another, sometimes in ways that aren't readily obvious. Meddling what that could cause an undesirable balance shift and could throw the entire mod out of whack, something nobody wants.

This still implies that Reika is the only person capable of understanding and manipulating the mod's complexity, though. I understand that it's very well thought out, and that is indeed one of the reasons I like the mod. But even without bringing in other mods, there are some balance decisions that I disagree with and would either not have a significant affect on overall progression or affecting the pogression is the point entirely. Why am I not allowed to make these changes, and release them for anyone else who happens to agree with me?

 

[Celestialphoenix]

This still implies that Reika is the only person capable of understanding and manipulating the mod's complexity, though.

It'll be very nice if Reika would give permission on a case by case basis [per addon per author], with the understanding that he can withdraw it at any time for any reason- it'll ensure quality control and staying within the rules; at the cost of dev time and probably a lot more work on Rei's part. Whether it'll be a worthwhile investment still remains to be decided.

At the end of the day Reika has the right to autonomy and independence- which shouldn't be forced away from him by an overly demanding group of individuals. Dev's don't have to allow modification of their work if they choose to; being able to do so is certainly a privilege rather than a right- and likewise they may bring in their own rules to what you can and can't do.

Even Mojang does this, though they only have 2 rules [no SMP hacks, and capes are for Mojang only].​

 

[Reika]

It'll be very nice if Reika would give permission on a case by case basis [per addon per author], with the understanding that he can withdraw it at any time for any reason- it'll ensure quality control and staying within the rules; at the cost of dev time and probably a lot more work on Rei's part. Whether it'll be a worthwhile investment still remains to be decided.

Because that leads to accusations of favoritism and bribery, and not just from ignorant players. Last time I tried that I had TiC accusing me of DRM both on twitter and every time the game launched, and putting code in TiC accordingly.

[2013-11-21 17:47:02] [SEVERE] [TConstruct] [Environment Checks] DragonAPI detected. Currently this just logs a warning, however if Reika continues his plan to implement DRM-like
[2013-11-21 17:47:02] [SEVERE] [TConstruct] [Environment Checks] code in his mod then it may become marked as fully unsupported. This is just a warning at this stage.

Let me make myself clear:
I am always going to listen to suggestions for balance or otherwise. I am by no means required to implement them. And to say "well then, screw you, I'll just code it myself/find someone who will" is not only a blatant threat but a clear demonstration of entitlement.


Also, any claims that the proposed addon is not damaging to RC or only applies when GT is installed are fruitless. Not only is the first simply false, but but the second is only minimally true. As soon as an addon of that nature is developed, you will have people clamoring for it to be usable even without GT. You should be well aware of how many people demand the Extractor be nerfed to 2x because they are completely unaware of the relative difficulty to the pulverizer and similar devices. Even keybounce, who is now reasonably well-acquainted with RC and is not the moron some others are, has made that claim before they used it. Additionally, it will lead to many cases of other hostile addons being developed, under the logic "well, that other one already exists". It will also lead to a flood of plugins designed to break what I have implemented to prevent things from being restricted to donators. This is where I completely lose control over everything I have designed and might as well give up entirely. I am not going to spend nearly 100% of my free time designing mods like RC if some jackoff with money for buying recoding or a mod-recoding-tool can just stick his dick in whatever behavior he pleases.

My recommendations:
2) Just minetweak it anyway. Modders who are against modding...I have reduced patience for this. (Apologies Reika. Your stance on this specific subject isn't well thought out, and your counter-arguments fail simple cost-benefit analysis.)

I support Reika and his mods; his organic design methods are clever.

Pick one.


Now, if you want the reasoning behind my "no modifications" rule, do a little searching; I have said it all over this and other forums.


Now, if for singleplayer you want to make this addon for your own personal game, go ahead. (Easier would be to compile a custom RC version). But as soon as it gets distributed it becomes public and against the rules.

 

[gallowglass]

Let me make myself clear:
I am always going to listen to suggestions for balance or otherwise. I am by no means required to implement them.

That is great.

And to say "well then, screw you, I'll just code it myself/find someone who will" is not only a blatant threat but a clear demonstration of entitlement.

How is it a threat? Entitled? Maybe.

As soon as an addon of that nature is developed, you will have people clamoring for it to be usable even without GT. You should be well aware of how many people demand the Extractor be nerfed to 2x because they are completely unaware of the relative difficulty to the pulverizer and similar devices. Even keybounce, who is now reasonably well-acquainted with RC and is not the moron some others are, has made that claim before they used it. Additionally, it will lead to many cases of other hostile addons being developed, under the logic "well, that other one already exists".

Why do you care what people clamor for?

It will also lead to a flood of plugins designed to break what I have implemented to prevent things from being restricted to donators.

Mojang has already outlawed that, right?

This is where I completely lose control over everything I have designed and might as well give up entirely. I am not going to spend nearly 100% of my free time designing mods like RC if some jackoff with money for buying recoding or a mod-recoding-tool can just stick his dick in whatever behavior he pleases.

Releasing Minecraft mod seems to be fundamentally incompatible with the level of control you seem to desire.

 

[Reika]

Mojang has already outlawed that, right?

That had little to no effect.
http://www.reddit.com/r/Minecraft/comments/2egoz7/a_more_in_depth_look_at_the_web_shop_pricing_on/

How is it a threat? Entitled? Maybe.

"If you don't make this I will do it for you against your wishes, [because you have a duty to have this feature]"?

Why do you care what people clamor for?

Because that means it will be created and it will be popular.

If "broken RC" becomes more popular than the real one - an inevitable outcome if all the big packs start including tweaks like this - then you can effectively consider RC as it was designed dead.


@TomeWyrm
I do not have time to explain my full reasoning at the moment; you have done a very good job in the past. Could you please fill in?

 

[Celestialphoenix]

Mojang has already outlawed that, right?

Mojang said ''don't do it'' and left it as that; they haven't really done anything beyond asking the community to moderate itself. As Reika pointed out- that worked really well

Where's Reika actually implemented his own system.​

Releasing Minecraft mod seems to be fundamentally incompatible with the level of control you seem to desire.

Releasing a Minecraft mod is fully compatible with that level of control; the problem comes with lot of the modded community seemingly incapable of respecting that desire for control.

Reika isn't the only dev who has that level of control; Eloraam [of Redpower], Alablaka [of IndustrialCraft] has [had?] his own rules, sp614 [of Optifine], Sengir [of Forestry] ect...​

 

[Demosthenex]

Licensing crap aside, Reika I'd like to thank you again for making a great mod that really re-invigorated my Minecraft play.

I have been away from home for some months and I'm itching to go build a reactor. My laptop just can't play on my own server...

 

[RavynousHunter]

Licensing crap aside, Reika I'd like to thank you again for making a great mod that really re-invigorated my Minecraft play.

I have been away from home for some months and I'm itching to go build a reactor. My laptop just can't play on my own server...

Damn straight, I love me some RotaryCraft. When everything else got tired and hum-drum, Reika came to the rescue and provided something genuinely enjoyable and interesting to play with.

 

[keybounce]

Even keybounce, who is now reasonably well-acquainted with RC and is not the moron some others are, has made that claim before they used it.

Yep, I was introduced to RoC by a user on my server long, long back, and I was investigating the mod. The whole apparent over-powered nature of RoC had me worried.

I'm still of the opinion that RoC overshadows everything else at the high-end. I'm no longer of the opinion that it does it in a bad way.

(But I *liked* the hydro-kinetics before )

The other is the scale of the power. As far as I know, the most powerful EU generator ever made is the GT fusion reactor, topping out at 40kEU/t. Compare that with ReactorCraft-scale power, which, converted, can go as high as 5.8MEU/t, and you have a recipe for me trampling every other power generator in the EU ecosystem. I do not want to completely obsoletize the majority of the IC2/GT content, and I also consider end-game IC2/GT to be "Greg's Territory" on which I have no right to encroach.

... and I still think that your power conversion ratios are off. You based it, as I understand, on the assumption that one bucket of fuel is one cubic meter of gasoline, and every mod that I've seen that permits tanks or other liquid storage stores much more than one bucket per block.

(Although, in fairness, 5800K vs 40K is about 120 to 1 ... how do your fission reactors compare to EU reactors? That's probably a more balanced comparison.)