Mod Feedback [By Request] RotaryCraft Suggestions

[Mattasdqwe]

I'll take my point here.

I suggest you rethink the new power conversion rate. I could post dozens of examples, but it what comes down to is that this is in no way even near to balanced. In no way does the output of a gas turbine (my knowledge is 67MW) equal 129 KRF/t. I've powered an extractor with 67MW in the past, and I can do comparable things to what the extractor does at that power at comparable speed with other mods not usually accused of being OP using a tenth of that power. I say this is utterly, completely unbalanced, and it comes across to me not as a necessary rebalancing, but as a 900% import tax on imported power, in order to make power imports economically unfeasible as well as difficult to achieve.

I would like to know what went into the calculation on your end? Maybe there is a point I can't see, but judging from the end result I would conclude there must've been some mistake.

By the time you have gotten to the point where you have the materials necessary to create a stable supply of jetfuel, as well as tungsten to make the turbine, you could easily have built a big reactor setup that produces the same amount of power. As to the way it was calculated, i believe it was to do with the amount of power a real world lava 'block' could make, compared to what it costs to make in a lava fabricator.
The only thing I think is wrong with the current RF integration is that rotational dynamos are to easy to make, and gaining quite significant free rf off steam engines in the early game is too easy. Maybe include tungsten in their recipe?

 

[Ieldra]

By the time you have gotten to the point where you have the materials necessary to create a stable supply of jetfuel, as well as tungsten to make the turbine, you could easily have built a big reactor setup that produces the same amount of power.

Not the point. The case is different: creating a supply of jet fuel is equivalent to mining and extracting yellorium. One may be more difficult than the other, but that has no impact on the power balance that exists once the gas turbine, or the reactor, is running. The question to consider is: what can you do with 67MW in RoC, and what can you do with 129 KRF/t in the RF world. And in the RF world, you can do significantly more - approximately ten times more - with 129 KRF/t than you can do with 67MW in RoC. If I want to replicate the functionality of an Extractor running at 67MW with an RF-based mod, the power required will be much closer to 12.9 KRF/t than to 129 KRF/t.

Here is what went into my calculation: If you smelt ores with Mekanism's Elite Factory, fully upgraded with speed and energy upgrades, it will require 1400 RF/t (my earlier estimation of 1000 was a little off but it's still workable). Two such Factories are fast enough to handle the output of an Extractor running at 67MW (based on one of my builds). Considering that you need a few more machines to do the same thing in Mekanism that the Extractor does by itself, I then applied a factor of five to the total power required, for a total of 2x5x1400 RF/t = 14 KRF/t. So the Extractor at 67MW takes in power that's equal to about 14KRF/t in a reasonably well-known and balanced tech mod of the RF world. I think ore processing is a pretty good yardstick since everyone does it in some way, and Mekanism is the only other mod that does ore quintupling so I didn't have to put arbitrary values in to correct for differences in that. The gas production required in Mekanism did not go into the calculation since I don't have the numbers for the output required. It's quite possible the number goes up by a factor of two again. But then, that's still significantly closer to the old conversion rate than the new one.

 

[Demosthenex]

Not the point. The case is different: creating a supply of jet fuel is equivalent to mining and extracting yellorium. One may be more difficult than the other, but that has no impact on the power balance that exists once the gas turbine, or the reactor, is running. The question to consider is: what can you do with 67MW in RoC, and what can you do with 129 KRF/t in the RF world. And in the RF world, you can do significantly more - approximately ten times more - with 129 KRF/t than you can do with 67MW in RoC. If I want to replicate the functionality of an Extractor running at 67MW with an RF-based mod, the power required will be much closer to 12.9 KRF/t than to 129 KRF/t.

Here is what went into my calculation: If you smelt ores with Mekanism's Elite Factory, fully upgraded with speed and energy upgrades, it will require 1400 RF/t (my earlier estimation of 1000 was a little off but it's still workable). Two such Factories are fast enough to handle the output of an Extractor running at 67MW (based on one of my builds). Considering that you need a few more machines to do the same thing in Mekanism that the Extractor does by itself, I then applied a factor of five to the total power required, for a total of 2x5x1400 RF/t = 14 KRF/t. So the Extractor at 67MW takes in power that's equal to about 14KRF/t in a reasonably well-known and balanced tech mod of the RF world.

I think you're demonstrating that RF isn't balanced, if you can do the same as it takes in RoC w/ 67 MW in 1400 RF/t. That's just silly that you can accomplish so much with so little. That fundamental imbalance is what's driving the impression that RoC produces too much RF.

 

[Ieldra]

I think you're demonstrating that RF isn't balanced, if you can do the same as it takes in RoC w/ 67 MW in 1400 RF/t. That's just silly that you can accomplish so much with so little. That fundamental imbalance is what's driving the impression that RoC produces too much RF.

You got the numbers wrong. I said you can do the same in Mekanism for 14000 RF/t, not for 1400. 1400 is just to run one Elite Smelting Factory, but I estimated that about the equal of ten of those where needed to match what the Extractor does. Whether 14KRF/t is "too little" for the task, well, I have no yardstick for that since no other RF-based mod does ore quintupling, but it's not "easy and early" power.

 

[Demosthenex]

You got the numbers wrong. I said you can do the same in Mekanism for 14000 RF/t, not for 1400. 1400 is just to run one Elite Smelting Factory, but I estimated that about the equal of ten of those where needed to match what the Extractor does. Whether 14KRF/t is "too little" for the task, well, I have no yardstick for that since no other RF-based mod does ore quintupling, but it's not "easy and early" power.

Ok, 14000 RF/t. That's still really low. 10x more vs MEGA-watts.

 

[abculatter_2]

I do agree that the conversion rate went a bit too far in the opposite extreme then it was before, and should be lowered a bit.
Though, as Demo is saying there, RF mods tend to use a completely different balance paradigm to RoC. Making them balance nicely with eachother is likely never going to happen, it's a bit like trying to put a square peg in a round hole. Sure, you can resize the square to make it fit, but it won't be perfect and the only way to make it perfect is to make the square a circle.

 

[Ieldra]

Ok, 14000 RF/t. That's still really low. 10x more vs MEGA-watts.

Numbers without context mean nothing. RoC's Watts actually *are* a much smaller unit of power than TE's RF/t. I'll say some more later....stuff to do.

 

[Ieldra]

So, here the numbers again: the old conversion rate (according to the wiki) was 5628 W = 1RF/t (note that W is a unit of power while RF is a unit of work, thus the difference in notation - from the RF side this would read as 281 J = 1 RF). Which did result in 67 MW being equal to about 12.9 KRF/t. I am finding that the Extractor does work equal to approximately 14 KRF/t in a mod that's not usually considered to be overpowered, so I find that the old conversion rate is much more balanced (read: closer to the reality of work that can be done with a certain amount of energy in different mods) than the new one. Now of course power requirements in the RF world tend to be a little arbitrary, but as I said, I think ore processing is a pretty good yardstick since almost everyone does it in some way.

 

[abculatter_2]

So, here the numbers again: the old conversion rate (according to the wiki) was 5628 W = 1RF/t (note that W is a unit of power while RF is a unit of work, thus the difference in notation - from the RF side this would read as 281 J = 1 RF). Which did result in 67 MW being equal to about 12.9 KRF/t. I am finding that the Extractor does work equal to approximately 14 KRF/t in a mod that's not usually considered to be overpowered, so I find that the old conversion rate is much more balanced (read: closer to the reality of work that can be done with a certain amount of energy in different mods) than the new one. Now of course power requirements in the RF world tend to be a little arbitrary, but as I said, I think ore processing is a pretty good yardstick since almost everyone does it in some way.

In the old system, two of any dynamo was equivalent to a hydrokinetic engine. It was nearly impossible for any energy generation before nuclear reactors to be worth it in comparison to RF generators.

It was basically the opposite extreme of what we have now.

 

[Ieldra]

In the old system, two of any dynamo was equivalent to a hydrokinetic engine. It was nearly impossible for any energy generation before nuclear reactors to be worth it in comparison to RF generators.

It was basically the opposite extreme of what we have now.

I see. Well, not quite - a microturbine equals a bank of 5 dynamos - but I see the point. Which means while the gas turbine's output is balanced relatively to what other mods can do with 12.9 KRF/t using the old conversion rate, the lower-tier engines are not. The thing is, 12,9 KRF is not easily achieved with a bank of dynamos - you'd need 16 upgraded with x8 power augments, which are quite a bit up the tech tree and, like the gas turbine, this setup can't be surpassed to a different order of magnitude without nuclear power. I'd say at that level, the RF world is balanced with RoC's world using the old conversion rate. If at lower levels it isn't, what can be done? I don't think a conversion rate that results in ridiculous imbalance at medium-to-high power levels is a good solution.

 

[abculatter_2]

I see. Well, not quite - a microturbine equals a bank of 5 dynamos - but I see the point. Which means while the gas turbine's output is balanced relatively to what other mods can do with 12.9 KRF/t using the old conversion rate, the lower-tier engines are not. The thing is, 12,9 KRF is not easily achieved with a bank of dynamos - you'd need 16 upgraded with x8 power augments, which are quite a bit up the tech tree and, like the gas turbine, this setup can't be surpassed to a different order of magnitude without nuclear power. I'd say at that level, the RF world is balanced with RoC's world using the old conversion rate. If at lower levels it isn't, what can be done? I don't think a conversion rate that results in ridiculous imbalance at medium-to-high power levels is a good solution.

This is what I meant when I said that RoC and RF mods use entirely separate balance paradigms. RoC uses exponential power growth, while most other mods use linear power growth. Neither is really incorrect, but they are inherently incompatible without fundamental changes to one mod or the other.

 

[choco218]

well i'll speak for myself here, but once you get constant and reliable jet fuel production, then you're ready to go nuclear. and fission reactors, with good designs, are too powerful for RF world. at least that's how I see it.

 

[Demosthenex]

well i'll speak for myself here, but once you get constant and reliable jet fuel production, then you're ready to go nuclear. and fission reactors, with good designs, are too powerful for RF world. at least that's how I see it.

You know what we need? MOAH POWAH! Igor! Throw the switch!

 

[choco218]

Igor! Throw the switch!

Well. used Gtech for that, a while ago =) lightning is quite a nice source of energy, have to say it. BUT ! get this fusion reactor up and running and man, ain't nothing that can eat all that power xD

 

[Reika]

This is what I meant when I said that RoC and RF mods use entirely separate balance paradigms. RoC uses exponential power growth, while most other mods use linear power growth. Neither is really incorrect, but they are inherently incompatible without fundamental changes to one mod or the other.

This. Because of RC's exponential scaling, compared to most mod's linear - or even flat - scaling, there is nothing you can do to make them line up.

 

[keybounce]

Maybe a better question: What is supposed to be the "match" between RoC and the RF world at this point? With RoC being exponential, it's effectively "it was matched at X before, and is now matched at Y".

 

[TomeWyrm]

But there is a reasonable point to aim for parity. I don't care so much if the mid/late game is ludicrous power myself. RoC takes everything to 15 anyway so I don't expect anything resembling balance at the late game. RoC's general design is inimical to a linear balance and aimed at late game ease. But early game? It strikes me as odd that I could probably power a medium sized mid-tech base off an engine I can make nearly out of the gate.

 

[Reika]

Maybe a better question: What is supposed to be the "match" between RoC and the RF world at this point? With RoC being exponential, it's effectively "it was matched at X before, and is now matched at Y".

The new conversion ratio is based of the magma crucible, and the energy it takes to melt one block of stone, knowing that in real life the melting energy of one cubic meter of andesite is 5.2MJ.

 

[psp]

@Reika

I know that you have already said this
"[ROTARYCRAFT] You should add things like wormholes, manmade black holes, teleportation, time travel, and so on with large amounts of power, as it is theoretically possible."
I agree that things like time travel, wormholes, teleportation, invisibility, and so on are actually technically possible. However, they all either require extremely advanced tech - invisibility requires nanotech, for example - or ludicrous power requirements. Someone else said it best:
"I believe the standard for the things your talking about is realism -> the amount of power required is consistent with theory, and theory says it's possible. Reika already indicated that a problem with something like a wormhole is that the theoretical power required is closer to the entire lifetime output of a star than to the power output of one fusion reactor. For all that this thing generates so much power it's difficult to comprehend how much it is, the power needed for those big hard-SF things is still on a completely different scale."

However, what is the chance of swaying you towards potentially adding items/functions like that, maybe in a separate addon?
I have some ideas that I think are cool, and I'll flesh them out if there is any chance you would consider them.

 

[Reika]

@Reika

I know that you have already said this
"[ROTARYCRAFT] You should add things like wormholes, manmade black holes, teleportation, time travel, and so on with large amounts of power, as it is theoretically possible."
I agree that things like time travel, wormholes, teleportation, invisibility, and so on are actually technically possible. However, they all either require extremely advanced tech - invisibility requires nanotech, for example - or ludicrous power requirements. Someone else said it best:
"I believe the standard for the things your talking about is realism -> the amount of power required is consistent with theory, and theory says it's possible. Reika already indicated that a problem with something like a wormhole is that the theoretical power required is closer to the entire lifetime output of a star than to the power output of one fusion reactor. For all that this thing generates so much power it's difficult to comprehend how much it is, the power needed for those big hard-SF things is still on a completely different scale."

However, what is the chance of swaying you towards potentially adding items/functions like that, maybe in a separate addon?
I have some ideas that I think are cool, and I'll flesh them out if there is any chance you would consider them.

I do not have the time to make and manage another addon, but it is certainly something I have no issues with someone else making. That said, you are going to have a hard time making the numbers work.