Biofuel boiler still viable? (Mindcrack 8.3.2)

[LittleMike]

Hello all,

So I've never actually gone the biomass->biofuel setup before and I was looking for some renewable energy solutions (keeping in mind, I play Mindcrack on a server) so I decided to try my hand at a SC/Biomass/Biofuel/Boiler setup.

Now I know I've read here previously that this is possible but that was in previous versions of the Mindcrack pack. I'm looking to find out if this is still viable. The reason I ask is that I was trying this on a test world the other day and it did not work at all. I'm not home right now so I can't post any screenshots, but the setup was basically a fair-size SC farm, feeding the saplings into fermenters powered by biogas engines (manually fueled to start) which fed into stills also powered by biogas engines, which fed the biofuel into a 36HP boiler.

I tried many different combinations, and each time, both the biomass and the biofuel would run out. Am I doing something wrong?

I tried 2 biogas engines into 2 fermenters into 4 stills (what I've read works) and that ran out.
I tried 2 biogas engines into 6 fermenters into 4 stills and that ran out
I tried saplings, plantballs, compressed plants, none made a difference, and always ran out.

Does anyone have the numbers on production rates/consumption for everything? I'm guessing the biogas engines were eating more biomass quicker than the fermenters could produce. I had the fermenters powered by the two biogas engines feeding the biomass back into the biogas engines and also into an iron tank. The stills were powered by a biogas engine each and pulled the biomass from the tank for both the engines and the stills and then the biofuel fed directly to the boiler. Note the boiler was dead cold to start. The boiler would get biofuel, run out, get biofuel, run out, so I heard a constant "whoosing" sound as it fired up then went out. I even tried waiting till I had half a full-size tank of biomass, and eventually it blew through it.

I'm assuming I'm doing something wrong here, but maybe the yield rates have changed? Anyone have any ideas?

 

[LittleMike]

53 views and not one person has any idea what I'm doing wrong? Damn, you guys disappoint me

So as not to appear as if I'm needlessly bumping this, one thing I wanted to add - I never got past the warm up stage. Is it possible that the problem I'm having is that it takes double the fuel during warmup than it does to maintain? If that's the case, then I can always try and boost production somehow to get past that and then scale down after the boiler is fully heated. I just want to know if anyone has any insight before I go tooling around only to find out I'm doing it wrong to start with.

 

[Moasseman]

It takes waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more fuel than just double during the warmup. Besides, due to how every single energy producing machine produces so much eu/mj/etc., there's no energy generation way that would not be viable.

 

[Deleted member 38496]

From what I've heard, it takes around 20 times the fuel during warm up for a 36 HP boiler. My recommendation is to build up a full tank of biofuel before starting the boiler. Depending on your energy production, it might also be possible to use electrical engines to power the stills and fermenters instead.

 

[LittleMike]

Oh, I thought it was just double. I guess I was wrong.

So does anyone have the actual numbers as far as how much energy it takes for a fermenter to produce biomass and how much energy a still takes to turn it to biofuel? That would be helpful in determining how many of each are needed.

Moasseman - I'm looking specifically for a renewable/hands-off source of energy. Solars to me seem a little cheaty. I want to feel like I'm actually doing something (at least initially) to get the energy. I've done the whole magma crucible to magmatic engine thing and am looking to do something different.

Optimatum - I may try that just to get it started and test how much fuel I actually need. Half a tank wasn't enough.

 

[Deleted member 38496]

The numbers for biomass and biofuel are on ftbwiki.org, which I've found to be the most complete wiki for FTB. The in-depth math is on the Railcraft wiki page about steam boilers.

 

[Shakie666]

From what I've heard, it takes around 20 times the fuel during warm up for a 36 HP boiler. My recommendation is to build up a full tank of biofuel before starting the boiler. Depending on your energy production, it might also be possible to use electrical engines to power the stills and fermenters instead.

Wow, 20 times the fuel during heatup? Insane. What about the fuel usage when its already heated up? Is that the same as before?
The massive upfront fuel cost may make people think twice before building that boiler (they're kinda OP at the minute), hopefully leading to some more inventive power setups. Though a part of me thinks the the extra initial fuel cost may just delay the problem.

 

[LittleMike]

The numbers for biomass and biofuel are on ftbwiki.org, which I've found to be the most complete wiki for FTB. The in-depth math is on the Railcraft wiki page about steam boilers.

I did check ftbwiki.org (I do find it to be the most complete as well) but it doesn't tell you how much energy the fermenter uses to create the biomass.

For example:

1 fermenter utilizing water for the catalyst and saplings for the material takes 500MJ to create 0.25B of biomass.

Those numbers are totally made up. I'm using them as an example of the information I'm having trouble finding. I know that a biogas engine runs at 5 MJ/tick for 10,000 ticks on a single bucket of biomass, but I don't know how much energy the fermenter needs to create that one bucket. It *could* take 60,000 MJ and that means you would be operating at a loss and run out of biomass. That's not the case, of course, but without the numbers, I can't figure out how many fermenters I would need to be energy positive. Same with the stills.

I checked the forestry wiki as well, and no luck there either :\

 

[Moasseman]

Moasseman - I'm looking specifically for a renewable/hands-off source of energy. Solars to me seem a little cheaty. I want to feel like I'm actually doing something (at least initially) to get the energy. I've done the whole magma crucible to magmatic engine thing and am looking to do something different.

Build a million water mills! Or RP2 Blulectric engine -> power converters! Or even windmills! (I love windmills!)

That aside, one of the better (the best) hands-free energy source is tree farm, either with the OP MFR machines or with Steve's carts/forestry.

 

[LittleMike]

Build a million water mills! Or RP2 Blulectric engine -> power converters! Or even windmills! (I love windmills!)

That aside, one of the better (the best) hands-free energy source is tree farm, either with the OP MFR machines or with Steve's carts/forestry.

I'm using a SC tree farm with this test setup to get the saplings for the fermenters. The problem is that even with 6 fermenters, I was still running out of biomass. I'm trying to figure out why. That's why this post

*EDIT* as far as Power Converters go - they aren't in Mindcrack, so I can't use them.

 

[Moasseman]

I'm using a SC tree farm with this test setup to get the saplings for the fermenters. The problem is that even with 6 fermenters, I was still running out of biomass. I'm trying to figure out why. That's why this post

Were you running out of biomass or biofuel? Because stills are usually the bottleneck in such a setup (they work slower than fermenters)

E: Also what if you set up a SC wheat farm and made seed oil out of the seeds to get 1.5 multiplier to biomass production?

 

[LittleMike]

Were you running out of biomass or biofuel? Because stills are usually the bottleneck in such a setup (they work slower than fermenters)

Both. The stills (4 of them) just didn't seem to keep up. The boiler was eating the biofuel at a much quicker rate than it could produce it. I thought 2 fermenters to 4 stills to one 36 HP boiler was the correct ratio, but I guess not. Maybe after it's heated up?

Tonight I may try to run the fermenters and fill a full size iron tank, then have the stills pump biofuel into a full-size iron tank first instead of directly into the boiler and see if I still run out.

 

[Mikey_R]

About 700 buckets should be able to get a max HP boiler from cold to max temp IIRC.

Honestly though, the only thing I can think of is that you are using 2 fermenters. I am currently running 1 fermenter and 4 stills. The biomass powers 3 biogas engines and the biofuel powers a max HP boiler and 3 combustion engines with some left over. Of course, the power from the boiler does feed back into the fermenter and still, so that might help. I also know this is stable as it has been running for a couple of weeks now on a server with no issues.

So, drop down to 1 fermenter, and take the power from the boiler and use it to help power the fermenter and stills, remembering you can add engines to your boiler before it heats up fully, so you can get power to speed up biofuel production.

 

[LittleMike]

About 700 buckets should be able to get a max HP boiler from cold to max temp IIRC.

Honestly though, the only thing I can think of is that you are using 2 fermenters. I am currently running 1 fermenter and 4 stills. The biomass powers 3 biogas engines and the biofuel powers a max HP boiler and 3 combustion engines with some left over. Of course, the power from the boiler does feed back into the fermenter and still, so that might help. I also know this is stable as it has been running for a couple of weeks now on a server with no issues.

So, drop down to 1 fermenter, and take the power from the boiler and use it to help power the fermenter and stills, remembering you can add engines to your boiler before it heats up fully, so you can get power to speed up biofuel production.

I tried 2, 4, and 6 fermenters, but didn't try dropping down to 1. Interesting. But wouldn't 2 fermenters and two biogas engines be the same as 1 biogas engine 1 fermenter? Or should I try 3 biogas engines to 1 fermenter?

 

[Peppe]

Some hard numbers on fermentors, stills, and their energy usage in this thread:
http://forum.feed-the-beast.com/threads/some-fermenting-science.9029/

Think it was ~17mj/t for fermentor, which will make about a bucket of biomass every 5-7 seconds.
Still will use 5-6 mj/t and process a bucket of biomass every ~25 seconds.

Typically fermentor to still ratio is then 1 fermentor to 4-5 stills on water. If you use one of the multipliers you might add 2-3 stills since you should be making 50% more biomass.


Each still running at full speed should support 1.1 36 tank HP boilers.

Starting up a boiler is mostly about having a buffer of fuel for the startup. I thought cold start was 8x times the usage rate. 8 or 20 whatever it is you will use a massive chunk of the fuel in the first 10-15 minutes.

For the full biofuel heatup a HP boiler it should be about 690 buckets to get to full heat over 5 hours, but most of the fuel is used in the first hour.

 

[LittleMike]

Thanks, Peppe. I also found this:

http://gaming.stackexchange.com/questions/109063/what-is-the-perfect-ratio-of-stills-to-fermenters

Some more numbers in there. Not sure how accurate it is, but great for a reference point. I'll have to do some more testing tonight.

 

[Grydian2]

I tend to kick start the heating process of liquid boilers with buildcraft fuel. Its by far the most potent fuel to use in the boiler. Once you get it to max heat the boifuel can take over and maintain the heat level without a problem.

 

[LittleMike]

I tend to kick start the heating process of liquid boilers with buildcraft fuel. Its by far the most potent fuel to use in the boiler. Once you get it to max heat the boifuel can take over and maintain the heat level without a problem.

Like fuel (derived from oil)? About how many buckets does that take? I'm not set up for it in my live world. I just wanted to do some testing before I try it in survival

 

[Grydian2]

Yep fuel from oil. Use a refinery to process the oil.

Results from Heatup Only Mode:
Heatup took 5 hours, 9 minutes & 30 seconds!
232.3 buckets of fuel were used.
Fuel/h after heating up: 12 buckets.
This is what the sim said from the railcraft wiki. So once its up and running its eats fuel really slowly. But during the heat up phase it eats a ton of fuel. Biofuel is 1/3 the strength of fuel so you will need 36 buckets of biofuel produced per hour to keep the boiler happy.

 

[LittleMike]

Yep fuel from oil. Use a refinery to process the oil.

Results from Heatup Only Mode:
Heatup took 5 hours, 9 minutes & 30 seconds!
232.3 buckets of fuel were used.
Fuel/h after heating up: 12 buckets.
This is what the sim said from the railcraft wiki. So once its up and running its eats fuel really slowly. But during the heat up phase it eats a ton of fuel. Biofuel is 1/3 the strength of fuel so you will need 36 buckets of biofuel produced per hour to keep the boiler happy.

36 buckets is after heatup. Hmm... I have to check Peppe's numbers again. I don't even think 1 fermenter/4 stills can keep up.

*EDIT* Keep up from a cold start, I mean