Discussion in 'Mod Discussion' started by Mason11987, Dec 17, 2012.
So I'm curious. What does the FTB community think about Better With Forge?
The mod or the drama surrounding it?
You may want to keep down the latter, some people are tired of drama.
I sometimes dream living in the world of "the Bold and the Beautiful". I tend to commit suicide shortly after I wake up
What about it?
Also, I would entirely try to avoid the latter option provided by Munaus. Otherwise, your thread my be deleted.
Here is my general opinion on modding:
The foremost ideal of Minecraft modding is making it about the players
If there is sufficient demand by the players, a modder will step up to fulfill the demand
Anyone who gets in the way of fulfilling this demand has ulterior motives to (1)
But, why? If we can have an informed, civil, mature conversation what harm is done? Even a little bit of a debate is good, so long as it isn't going too far, being insulting, etc.
Slowpoke said he was fine with me making this thread, so I doubt it would be deleted.
I just want to hear opinions in the situation.
OK as long as this thread remains civil it is OK. please note that if this turns into a flame fest, it will be out of my hands and the moderators will close it down. For purposes of clarification, right now my stance is that we will not be distributing BWF through our launcher. However we are trying to check certain facts with regards to how we should treat instances like this. Technically BWF is a totally legal mod and the only reason for us not to allow distribution it the disruption this may cause in the community.
Could you direct me to where I should go to get information on it? I'd like to read up some more, rather than form an opinion based on hearsay.
I absolutely agree. It's just that topics like these are allmost doomed to become insulting.
I would really like to see BTW as a part of FTB launcher. Never played it myself, but it looks fun.
I'd really like to have more than hearsay to base an opinion on. I know next to nothing about it, at least next to nothing that I've been able to confirm.
Edit: Google provided me with this as a first result: http://www.minecraftforum.net/topic/1601439-better-with-forge/
Which can lead me to guess that it's the conversation saved here is what some of the information is based on.
I really prefer to take things at face value, since interpreting information beyond face value is never a very good way to form an opinion.
I'm curious, no attempts at trolling here!, what Morv's feelings are about this.
She/he/it? happens to be the only former-BTW user I know here.
She. Morv is certainly a she.
I would love to hear from the other side of the story, I got too much technic in me to pass a judgment opinion on a mod that I have never played.
Edit." judgment " sounds like I am reviewing the mod. I'm not
I will publicly say here what I say to my live stream when this topic comes up. This entire series of events and drama has been painful for me, for a variety of reasons. Because of that, I have no further comment, and I do not wish to discuss it.
Affirmative. I wont push the question then.
Would a rose change your mind, though?
A coin for your thoughts?
Alright alright I wont push it, I swear I swear!
Hey now, the only thing that may work is a bribe of coffee, but she's a she, and she said no, so the answer is no
I think that Better then Wolves is a pretty cool looking mod, I have never personally played it because I didnt get into mods until after the 1.8 Minecraft change. After that changed BTW dropped compatibility with forge I never got near it because I was always a big IC and BC fan. However I have looked at it several times and have even considered doing a BTW world just for kicks to see how it plays out. I think that its sad that flowerchild feels that mods like RP are in competition to him. In a video interview with him shortly after he decided to drop forge he said something along the lines of. "Other mods adding more functionality means that my mod gets used less meaning that Im in competition with them." Shortly there after this statement he makes the statement of "I don't do BTW for money, I don't really make money from BTW. I make BTW for my enjoyment and when I stop having fun developing BTW is when BTW disappears." These 2 statements are quite contradictory if you ask me. First he says that all the new hooks added to forge to make it easier for other mods to add more functionality makes those mods in competition to his. Then he says that he doesn't care how many people play the mod, nor is he doing this for anything more then his own enjoyment.
Seems to me that he cares quite a bit more about what people think about the mod and how "popular" it is then he wants people to believe. If he really was just modding for his own enjoyment then I don't see any reason why he couldn't take advantage of the forge team and have them add a few hooks to forge to make his mods base edits easier to do.
As far as the whole "BWF is plagiarism! BWF is a cheap knockoff! BWF is this BWF is that!" I think that from what I have heard it sounds like they plan on taking BTWs concepts and ideas, but not the code. As far as I can tell it sounded like they were going to do a custom write of the mod to make it Forge compatible while still keeping a lot of the mechanics of the mod intact. And you know, as long as they don't blatantly steal chunks of code, or anything else of his creative design (I.E. sprites, or other art work). Then I see nothing wrong (or illegal) about the making of BWF.
Here's a few examples of companies in the business world do the same sort of thing: Take Dish network and Direct TV satellite tv services. The both offer the same service correct? For a monthly fee they provide you with X amount of TV channels broadcasted you through satellite to your reciever box so you can enjoy your favorite shows/movies. However in the business world this is completely Ok. Its a healthy competition. Some enjoy Dish network better then Direct TV. Maybe Direct TV provides a few more channels for a cheaper price then Dish Network does, however you still choose Dish because Direct TV just doesn't have those Football Channels that you just can't live without.
Or what about Windows and Mac? Windows and mac are both operating systems, they both provide the same base services. A way to communicate to other programs through a widely accepted programing system. They both allow things such as internet use, media access among other things. However your a Windows user through and through. Well why, why not be a mac user? I mean there both essentially the same correct? Well yes they both accomplish the same end result, however they both do it in drastically different ways. You may love how with your windows computer you can network your homegroup with your xbox, your Playstation, your android smart phone. And then you use window media center to give you access to your favorite pics, movies, Tv shows, and a plethora of other media content from any of your favorite media devices all through the use of cloud storage and remote access to your media station at home.
You see there are only so many truly original ideas, however there are almost an infinite ways of accomplishing the same end result. True you have tread lightly with something such as developing a mod like BWF. There is a fine line between healthy competition and all out plagiarism.
/end my 2 cents.
I honestly do not care about the drama that occurs behind all the mods out there, BTW and BWF included. I think I have made my stance clear in the past that we as the community shouldn't concern ourselves with issues/problems that are not ours to resolve nor affect us. If you play BTW and like it good for you, if you want to donate to FC and support him that way then good for you. Who are we to judge anyone based on Youtube videos, forum posts, IRC conversations, and the such?
Randomsteve posted a good example. If BWF isn't using FC's code and sprites then I see BWF as a competitor to BTW, not a 'rip-off'. There's a difference between copying someone's work and publishing it as your own and making a whole new product with the same purpose as the original. FC doesn't like BWF? Well in all honesty someone was eventually going to do this. But as long as BWF isn't identical to BTW as far as coding and sprites then I don't see a problem.
So, the bit where they tell you to put BTW in a side folder so it looks like it's an add-on/endorsed thing and their mod can rip the models and sprites out of it? Definitely not deliberately provoking him or anything.
Personally, I'd like some facts, cited sources please, concerning some details before I make any hasty judgements.
First and foremost, it seems like some people feel that it is a similar mod, but the code is completely new... while others seem to feel that it is merely a packager which enables BTW to run with Forge. The former is certainly okay, and even inevitable. Heck, Redpower already does most of what BTW does (plus a great deal more), which is probably why FC holds Elloram in such disregard. The latter, however, is certainly another matter entirely, and not cool.
So, is it all code which was inspired by BTW, or is it just a wrapper? That, I think, will be the telling difference. If it's just a wrapper... well, FC's response can be very simple... simply pull a SirSengir and have... unpleasant things... occur when you try to run it in the wrapper. If it's all original code, however, then he's really got no case. His spewing of profanity and epitaphs doesn't really help matters.
BTW is a fun and challenging mod, even if I don't approve of some of the toilet humour and drug culture references found therein. I don't play it, however, because I don't approve of the policies which the mod author adheres to. Just to be clear: FC has every right as the creator of BTW to explicitly make it non-compatible with Forge, although he could have been a bit more polite over the split. I don't blame him for doing so. I just don't agree with the move, and I think it will ultimately hurt his mod's popularity. Since literally every other mod I enjoy playing with runs with Forge compatibility, it simply isn't feasible for me to play with it.
So, Mod written by someone else in whole based on his concepts, or wrapper?
Separate names with a comma.