Bee breading punnett square calculator

[h0gtitties]

I did some googling this morning for a Punnett square calculator for bee breeding. I was hoping to find some sort of javascript calculator that would allow me to input my bee species and help me determine the best bees to breed in order to get the bee I wanted.

Does anything like this exist already? If not, it would be a great idea for anyone reading this that was good with javascript and knowledgeable on the bee breading mechanics.

 

[Celestialphoenix]

NEI or wiki page for the mutation chance.

Then spreadsheet in Excel or google docs

 

[h0gtitties]

I use stuff like that already but it's a pain in the ass to manage. I also use this generic online tool http://scienceprimer.com/punnett-square-calculator I can change up the values so they make more sense and it works fine. Was just hoping someone in the community made a custom tool to make our lives easier.

 

[midi_sec]

i think you're just looking for a flowchart type thing. breed bee X and bee Y to get bee Z, take bee Z and bee D to get (the bee i want), or am i misunderstanding?

the punnett square is useful for a different reason entirely, and mostly when you've got a hybrid in the mix. you would use that to calculate your odds of modifying recessive/dominant traits and other such complicated "manual bee breeding" junk.

 

[Tristam Izumi]

Punnett squares actually only deals with non-mutation inheritance. It's a pretty simple 2x2 Punnett square with red = dominant and blue = recessive.

Bee mutation chance is an entirely different ball-game.

 

[h0gtitties]

Let me explain in greater detail a scenerio that always happens when I start a new world and why I was looking for a calculator. This always happens to me when I get started with bee breeding. In threads I read from others, it's kinda a common confusion point. One that could be made easier with an online tool.

So starting out with a fresh pair of hive bees... Forest and Medows, I typically bread them together using soul frames and or a combination of 2 soul frames and 1 oblivion frame. Doing so will inevitably produce mostly hybrids. Except for the mutation factor x%

So lets say you get a Common-Medows hybrid drone a Forest-medow hybrid drone and a Forest-Common hybrid princess. What bee combo gives you the greatest chance of getting a pure common princess and drone? With those options the first thought is (for me anyway) the ones that have common as a trait. However breading them together often results in a cultivated-common hybrid instead of a pure common because as we know a common bread with a hive bee gives us a chance for a Cultivated, but it's always a hybrid.

So having a tool that would allow you to select your princess and drone traits based on what you have available would go a long way in demystifying the whole process.

I don't know if that scenario makes any more sense... or just adds to the confusion. Essentially I was hoping that someone out there created a tool to help bee breeders determine probability for the bees they have on hand. Even better if it was able to factor in frames into the mutation chance ratio.

 

[Tristam Izumi]

Honestly, you'll spend more time trying to figure out which combo is "best" for breeding than it would take to actually breed it. There's too much variation to find a "best" the way you're looking at it.

 

[midi_sec]

going along with what was said above, this is a case when a tradition punnet square would be what you're looking for.

using a calculator is just going to take too long to manipulate all of the traits into the boxes. it's not that complex of an array, so doing it with mental calculations seems a bit more feasible.

 

[rhn]

So lets say you get a Common-Medows hybrid drone a Forest-medow hybrid drone and a Forest-Common hybrid princess. What bee combo gives you the greatest chance of getting a pure common princess and drone? With those options the first thought is (for me anyway) the ones that have common as a trait. However breading them together often results in a cultivated-common hybrid instead of a pure common because as we know a common bread with a hive bee gives us a chance for a Cultivated, but it's always a hybrid.

That specific case is rather unique. You wont find many(1 or 2 at most) of those cases where trying to refine a breed will result in further mutations. So creating a calculator just for that specific situation(which is very easily managed with some common sense as it is. And it is not like you wont need the cultivated as well later.), would be somewhat waste of time IMO.

 

[ThatOneSlowking]

Hm... I should bet into bee breeding, if it is possible to use punnett squares and no wiki/forum I will make every species!
Im to impatient, but using punnett squares is a great idea

 

[rhn]

Hm... I should bet into bee breeding, if it is possible to use punnett squares and no wiki/forum I will make every species!
Im to impatient, but using punnett squares is a great idea

But the Punnet square only works as long as bees do not mutate, which is the whole point. If people actually looked up what the Punnett square does, they would understand that it is practically impossible to use for much else than explain school children about basics of genetics.
The Punnet square doesn't actually work reliable for what we teach our children that it does, due to the fact that we do not have perfect division and melding of genes. All kinds of weird things happen.

If you breed 2 species of bees that cannot mutate, then sure the Punnett square is the perfect tool if you cant imagine the 4 different outcomes. But not sure why you would want to do that.

 

[midi_sec]

But the Punnet square only works as long as bees do not mutate, which is the whole point. If people actually looked up what the Punnett square does, they would understand that it is practically impossible to use for much else than explain school children about basics of genetics.
The Punnet square doesn't actually work reliable for what we teach our children that it does, due to the fact that we do not have perfect division and melding of genes. All kinds of weird things happen.

i don't understand where you're coming from with this. now i'm old, but the only thing i was taught punnet square does is give a visual representation of the possible outcomes and statistical probabilities of said outcome. if you use the punnet square properly it can be a useful tool for manual bee breeding in minecraft.

example: species can be either dominant or recessive, and so can traits. sometimes it helps to do a mental punnet of your traits so you can see if you're just going to be throwing away the bee with the trait that you're trying to isolate and make dominant, since a recessive trait will never rise above a dominant if they're both present in a cross. b + b makes dominant b, while Bb + bb, Bb + Bb still have a chance of still keeping your unwanted trait dominant.

 

[rhn]

i don't understand where you're coming from with this. now i'm old, but the only thing i was taught punnet square does is give a visual representation of the possible outcomes and statistical probabilities of said outcome. if you use the punnet square properly it can be a useful tool for manual bee breeding in minecraft.

example: species can be either dominant or recessive, and so can traits. sometimes it helps to do a mental punnet of your traits so you can see if you're just going to be throwing away the bee with the trait that you're trying to isolate and make dominant, since a recessive trait will never rise above a dominant if they're both present in a cross. bb will make dominant b, while Bb + bb, Bb + Bb still have a chance of still keeping your unwanted trait dominant.

There is no such thing as dominant or recessive traits in beekeeping. There is just an active and an inactive "side". A random side of each parent will be passed on during the creation of a new drone/princess and it is random which side of the new bee it will end up on. Sometimes you have random mutations where traits(like work speed, temperature tolerance etc.) from one side will switch sides(just like RL). And there is a chance if the parent bees are the right species that the passed "side" will mutate into a complete new species in which case it take that species default traits(still possible trait side switching).

 

[ThatOneSlowking]

There is no such thing as dominant or recessive traits in beekeeping. There is just an active and an inactive "side". A random side of each parent will be passed on during the creation of a new drone/princess and it is random which side of the new bee it will end up on. Sometimes you have random mutations where traits(like work speed, temperature tolerance etc.) from one side will switch sides(just like RL). And there is a chance if the parent bees are the right species that the passed "side" will mutate into a complete new species in which case it take that species default traits(still possible trait side switching).

So basically it is nothing like IRL genetics?(with the traits being passed down, I mean. Is there dominant and co-dominant traits? And there are no recessive? I am just now learning genetics so I may completely be an idiot saying this)

 

[Padfoote]

So basically it is nothing like IRL genetics?

The opposite, actually.

Edit: Posted before Slowking edited his point, this post no longer applies.

 

[ThatOneSlowking]

The opposite, actually.

Had screwed up my post and finished editting after you replied xD
I will need a few years to understand genetics better

 

[midi_sec]

There is no such thing as dominant or recessive traits in beekeeping. There is just an active and an inactive "side". A random side of each parent will be passed on during the creation of a new drone/princess and it is random which side of the new bee it will end up on. Sometimes you have random mutations where traits(like work speed, temperature tolerance etc.) from one side will switch sides(just like RL). And there is a chance if the parent bees are the right species that the passed "side" will mutate into a complete new species in which case it take that species default traits(still possible trait side switching).

splitting hairs here I think. active trait, dominant trait, different names but they act the same.

and I specifically mentioned manually isolating the traits, not so much mutation. you would need a separate square for mutations.

 

[rhn]

So basically it is nothing like IRL genetics?(with the traits being passed down, I mean. Is there dominant and co-dominant traits? And there are no recessive? I am just now learning genetics so I may completely be an idiot saying this)

It is similar to RL genetics as in it is based on Mendel Inheritance, it does somewhat represent the(not entirely sure what this is called in english) chromosome slips that causes pieces of genes(traits) to "change sides", but it is greatly simplified of course in that there is no random species mutations(species are fixed) and there are no dominant traits that outweighs other. And as I mentioned, as long as you don't get mutations, it follows what you would expect from a Punnet square exactly(except for trait side changing thing). In general it is very clever done IMO.

splitting hairs here I think. active trait, dominant trait, different names but they act the same.

Might just be a matter of understanding yes, but there is a distinct difference between an active trait and a dominant trait. If for example we said that Forest was dominant and meadows was recessive, then it would be impossible to get a meadows-forest hybrid. They would all be Forest-meadows hybrids because the forest trait always took the dominant(active) position, which is not the case of Forestry bee breeding.

 

[midi_sec]

that's obvious.

you can't use a punnet square for something it wont show, like the chances of a bee mutating and carrying a trait over. that doesn't happen, so obviously your square wouldn't show it.

I'm at work and can't explain what I mean, later tho.

 

[Neirin]

Just a general rule of thumb for situations like this where attempting to stabilize the genome can lead to further mutations:

0-1 alleles of the desired species => use frames to encourage mutation
2-3 alleles => don't use mutating frames, just let the genome stabilize

Once you have 2-3 of the desired alleles present, any benefit you might get from inducing extra mutations to your desired species will be offset by the chance of mutations to the next tier. If you're really worried, I'd recommend using some healing frames in conjunction with an oblivion frame to reduce the chance of further mutation.