Advanced tools disappointment

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Zelfana

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Jul 29, 2019
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So I just made the advanced chainsaw and advanced dimond drill thinking they would be at least fast enough to replace other tools. Nope, chainsaw is only good as a sword and drill takes more juice than the laser at low focus and is slower, too.

Is there a bug with the chainsaw, it's not faster than hand at all? Right now it's just an expensive shears. I can use the nano saber if I want a sword you can't block with, it does more damage.

And the drill is more expensive than the laser but uses more EU per block broken and is slower, too. Not to mention the ridiculously small EU storage.
 

AnanaZ

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Try out a Batpack > Lappack > Advanced Lappack > Ultimate Lappack in combination with a Diamond Drill / Chainsaw or a Nano-saber...
Combining a Drill with various enchanted Diamond pickaxes too maximise ore looting makes it worth it. Might be a bit slower but on a "semi-crowded" server it'll pay off.

Maybe you're experiencing a bug with the Chainsaw, on my end its similar to a Diamond axe.
 

zemerick

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Yea, sounds like your chainsaw just isn't charged.

I also find the Adv. diamond drill to be quite nice. It's clearly faster than the standard drill. ( Just watch out around dirt...you can knock out 20+ blocks in half a second. ) Sure, it uses a bit more power...but that should rarely be an issue really. Get your gravi-suit and it definitely won't be.

I recommend using a rockcutter over enchanted pick personally...cheap and easy to get, plus no damage just a bit of power.

Actually, the advanced drill was balanced to be the same as the regular diamond drill for 1 tier higher. IE Adv drill with Adv Lappack would last the same as a diamond drill with lappack. Seems pretty good to me, especially when you consider there are quite a few tiers higher than that still.
 

Zelfana

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I'm wearing a Lappack and charged the chainsaw, too. Killed spiders with it in one hit, sheared sheeps and leaves but wood is slow as by hand. But the problem was TreeCapitator, it makes everything else but axes specified in the config act like hand speed. So that's out then I guess, odd bug.

As for the drill the only redeeming feature is that the laser sometimes can destroy the dropped block even when using low focus so the drill is safer. Rockcutter I already have but Fortune III is still needed for some ores to get the most returns. The grinder is just too expensive to get 10% more diamonds with when it uses so many.
 

bigtwisty

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For me, especially with irridium ore, the rock cutter is slower than molasses in a snow biome. I made diamond pick with efficiency V, unbreaking III and silk touch, and it has lasted me a heck of a long time.
 
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zemerick

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I'm wearing a Lappack and charged the chainsaw, too. Killed spiders with it in one hit, sheared sheeps and leaves but wood is slow as by hand. But the problem was TreeCapitator, it makes everything else but axes specified in the config act like hand speed. So that's out then I guess, odd bug.

As for the drill the only redeeming feature is that the laser sometimes can destroy the dropped block even when using low focus so the drill is safer. Rockcutter I already have but Fortune III is still needed for some ores to get the most returns. The grinder is just too expensive to get 10% more diamonds with when it uses so many.

That's intentional with the Laser. That is what the Mining mode is for. That's the only one that does not have a chance to destroy the ore.
 

Zelfana

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That's intentional with the Laser. That is what the Mining mode is for. That's the only one that does not have a chance to destroy the ore.
You sure about that? The wiki doesn't say that mining mode would work differently. The modes just have different power and if mining mode doesn't destroy the drops then low focus should also not destroy since its power is lower.
 

Zelfana

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You sure about that? The wiki doesn't say that mining mode would work differently. The modes just have different power and if mining mode doesn't destroy the drops then low focus should also not destroy since its power is lower.
Yeah, I tested it out and the mining mode can destroy drops, too. So laser is only for when you know you won't miss the drops, like mining nether brick or netherrack.
 

warfighter67

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I was pretty disappointed as well. The only benefit to the chainsaw is that it kills things quicker. The drill has no advantage whatsoever.
 

zemerick

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Oh, if you want a really good advanced tool, get Vajra. Very powerful weapon ( though I found out Endermen and Ender Dragon seem to be immune to its 1 shot. Gold sword was actually better on the dragon. )

However, it really shines as a tool. It can break any block as fast as the advanced drill can take out dirt. Wood, stone, obsidian, whatever. Doesn't seem to use much power, but I am in a gravisuit.
 

trondaron

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For me, especially with irridium ore, the rock cutter is slower than molasses in a snow biome. I made diamond pick with efficiency V, unbreaking III and silk touch, and it has lasted me a heck of a long time.
I had the same experience. I'm back to the rock cutter at the moment due to a string of bad luck with enchants and exploration in some unstable mystcraft ages. An Efficiency/Unbreaking Steel pick is superior to the drill IMO, a Steel sword beats the nano saber because of the potential for looting or fire aspect. I've even stopped using long fall boots because the don't prevent damage from ender pearls. I'm looking into replacing my nano armor with something because my ender pearl use eats through the "energy" so quickly.
So many Fortune II / Unbreaking III picks....
 

Enigmius1

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I can't agree with the assertions that the drill offers no advantage. It's faster than the diamond drill. That's an advantage. When you're supplying power to your tools with things like advanced lappacks or ultimate lappacks/gravisuits, double the energy cost for something that already uses so little is not a detracting factor. Not everything needs to be broken down to pure maths to decide whether or not it's worthwhile to use. It's when you play like Yogscast and don't use *anything* to keep your tools recharged in the field that energy consumption becomes a substantial consideration that one might want to weigh against the alternatives.

I'm a big fan of multi-use tools. Drill that serves as both a pickaxe and a shovel? Awesome. Chainsaw that is axe + sword + shears? Gimme the best one you've got. I have a nano saber and it's fun to use form time to time, especially pre-Vajra if you feel the need to poke an Endermen or Zombie Pigman where you want to throw down as much damage with every hit as you can, but once I made a Vajra the nano saber went into a chest and won't likely be coming out any time soon.

The Vajra is horrendously expensive in terms of energy consumption given what it does, but it's not meant to be the kind of thing you keep topped up with a batpack. Every hit, whether it's mining, logging, or smashing a critter uses up 3k-ish energy. Compared to even the advanced chainsaw/diamond drill, that's a fortune. That's why I still have the advanced diamond drill and chainsaw on my hotbar. I use those for precision, and the vajra for raw clearing power.

Everything has a use, but if everything gets broken down into numbers, there's always going to be a "best" and then that's all you use and you miss out on the fun. It also leads to a lot of unnecessary criticism when people work only in absolutes but expect others to offer more than absolutes.
 

SilvasRuin

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The Vajra is a horrid abomination that disappoints me for the simple reason multiple reasons, most simply that it boggles me a mod maker would add such a powerful SMP griefing tool. It doesn't matter how long it takes to get it, some of the "best" trolls and griefers would be the "sleeper agent" ones anyways. It pops Hedge, Mazestone, and Iridium Reinforced Stone with a tap, and it would not surprise me for a moment if it the upcoming Warded Doors and Stone from Thaumcraft have no defense against it either. The Mining Laser may be just as absurd, I haven't yet checked, but at least I know that has a convenient config option to disable it. Even ignoring the griefing potential, it frustrates me to no end that some people think it's good game design to trivialize EVERYTHING with the top tier of equipment. Have they never learned from RPGs that do such things that it sucks all the fun out of having new toys if there's nothing left worth using it on? If nothing else, it spoils the fun of trying to defend a base with such high defense blocks as it pretends they're not even there.

The Gravitation Suit mod that adds these advanced tools is... disappointing on the whole to me because it's three pieces of terribly overpowered upgrades to already overpowered equipment (no one can argue that the Quantum Suit doesn't completely trivialize the idea of "survival") alongside two side-grades with only one of them being of any use. It doesn't help that the Advanced Chainsaw becomes less energy efficient at killing anything with less armor than a zombie (which seems to be nearly everything but zombie pigmen and bosses) without actually making it any faster at killing such things.
It's like the Iron Sword all over again, but with less durability than the Stone Sword instead of more. (For those who don't know what I'm talking about, an unenchanted Iron Sword isn't enough of a step up from Stone to kill things in less hits, making it a nearly superfluous tier only being useful for longer lasting swords.)


[/endrant]
 

warfighter67

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I can't agree with the assertions that the drill offers no advantage. It's faster than the diamond drill. That's an advantage. When you're supplying power to your tools with things like advanced lappacks or ultimate lappacks/gravisuits, double the energy cost for something that already uses so little is not a detracting factor. Not everything needs to be broken down to pure maths to decide whether or not it's worthwhile to use. It's when you play like Yogscast and don't use *anything* to keep your tools recharged in the field that energy consumption becomes a substantial consideration that one might want to weigh against the alternatives.

I'm a big fan of multi-use tools. Drill that serves as both a pickaxe and a shovel? Awesome. Chainsaw that is axe + sword + shears? Gimme the best one you've got. I have a nano saber and it's fun to use form time to time, especially pre-Vajra if you feel the need to poke an Endermen or Zombie Pigman where you want to throw down as much damage with every hit as you can, but once I made a Vajra the nano saber went into a chest and won't likely be coming out any time soon.

The Vajra is horrendously expensive in terms of energy consumption given what it does, but it's not meant to be the kind of thing you keep topped up with a batpack. Every hit, whether it's mining, logging, or smashing a critter uses up 3k-ish energy. Compared to even the advanced chainsaw/diamond drill, that's a fortune. That's why I still have the advanced diamond drill and chainsaw on my hotbar. I use those for precision, and the vajra for raw clearing power.

Everything has a use, but if everything gets broken down into numbers, there's always going to be a "best" and then that's all you use and you miss out on the fun. It also leads to a lot of unnecessary criticism when people work only in absolutes but expect others to offer more than absolutes.
The one problem is that the Advanced diamond drill isn't faster. Testing with the advanced chainsaw yields no faster results either. The only thing, albeit a good advantage, is that the advanced drill can cut through grass and gravel as fast as dirt, which makes terraforming easier. However, I've noticed that it doesn't work on everything the normal drill works on. For example, crystals from Mystcraft can't be quickly mined with the advanced drill, as opposed to the normal one.

I've never heard of the Vajra, but I'll be using it for sure now. I have an ultimate lappack, so 3k per use is nothing with 10mil storage. That's over 3000 uses in a single trip.
 

zemerick

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Jul 29, 2019
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The Vajra is a horrid abomination that disappoints me for the simple reason multiple reasons, most simply that it boggles me a mod maker would add such a powerful SMP griefing tool. It doesn't matter how long it takes to get it, some of the "best" trolls and griefers would be the "sleeper agent" ones anyways. It pops Hedge, Mazestone, and Iridium Reinforced Stone with a tap, and it would not surprise me for a moment if it the upcoming Warded Doors and Stone from Thaumcraft have no defense against it either. The Mining Laser may be just as absurd, I haven't yet checked, but at least I know that has a convenient config option to disable it. Even ignoring the griefing potential, it frustrates me to no end that some people think it's good game design to trivialize EVERYTHING with the top tier of equipment. Have they never learned from RPGs that do such things that it sucks all the fun out of having new toys if there's nothing left worth using it on? If nothing else, it spoils the fun of trying to defend a base with such high defense blocks as it pretends they're not even there.

The Gravitation Suit mod that adds these advanced tools is... disappointing on the whole to me because it's three pieces of terribly overpowered upgrades to already overpowered equipment (no one can argue that the Quantum Suit doesn't completely trivialize the idea of "survival") alongside two side-grades with only one of them being of any use. It doesn't help that the Advanced Chainsaw becomes less energy efficient at killing anything with less armor than a zombie (which seems to be nearly everything but zombie pigmen and bosses) without actually making it any faster at killing such things.
It's like the Iron Sword all over again, but with less durability than the Stone Sword instead of more. (For those who don't know what I'm talking about, an unenchanted Iron Sword isn't enough of a step up from Stone to kill things in less hits, making it a nearly superfluous tier only being useful for longer lasting swords.)


[/endrant]

Config. You can disable any gravi-suit item, including Vajra.
 

Flip

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Jul 29, 2019
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Config. You can disable any gravi-suit item, including Vajra.

This needs to be emphasized more. If you want your game to be balanced, you have to mess with configs. Very few of these mods were developed with the idea that they'd be used alongside the others, and the FTB team created the default configs with everything activated in order to ensure maximum compatibility. In other words, nobody has tried to balance FTB as a whole and if you want it to be balanced, you need to do the work yourself.
 

Zelfana

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Jul 29, 2019
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Oh, if you want a really good advanced tool, get Vajra. Very powerful weapon ( though I found out Endermen and Ender Dragon seem to be immune to its 1 shot. Gold sword was actually better on the dragon. )

However, it really shines as a tool. It can break any block as fast as the advanced drill can take out dirt. Wood, stone, obsidian, whatever. Doesn't seem to use much power, but I am in a gravisuit.
Vajra uses 3333 EU per operation where the advanced drill uses 160. Gravisuit and ultimate solar helmet combo is ridiculously OP and that makes you able to never have to recharge at base. The helmet can charge everything in your inventory and works even in the dark.

I can't agree with the assertions that the drill offers no advantage. It's faster than the diamond drill. That's an advantage. When you're supplying power to your tools with things like advanced lappacks or ultimate lappacks/gravisuits, double the energy cost for something that already uses so little is not a detracting factor. Not everything needs to be broken down to pure maths to decide whether or not it's worthwhile to use. It's when you play like Yogscast and don't use *anything* to keep your tools recharged in the field that energy consumption becomes a substantial consideration that one might want to weigh against the alternatives.

I'm a big fan of multi-use tools. Drill that serves as both a pickaxe and a shovel? Awesome. Chainsaw that is axe + sword + shears? Gimme the best one you've got. I have a nano saber and it's fun to use form time to time, especially pre-Vajra if you feel the need to poke an Endermen or Zombie Pigman where you want to throw down as much damage with every hit as you can, but once I made a Vajra the nano saber went into a chest and won't likely be coming out any time soon.

The Vajra is horrendously expensive in terms of energy consumption given what it does, but it's not meant to be the kind of thing you keep topped up with a batpack. Every hit, whether it's mining, logging, or smashing a critter uses up 3k-ish energy. Compared to even the advanced chainsaw/diamond drill, that's a fortune. That's why I still have the advanced diamond drill and chainsaw on my hotbar. I use those for precision, and the vajra for raw clearing power.

Everything has a use, but if everything gets broken down into numbers, there's always going to be a "best" and then that's all you use and you miss out on the fun. It also leads to a lot of unnecessary criticism when people work only in absolutes but expect others to offer more than absolutes.
I made the advanced drill without using the normal drill or diamond drill at all because I got the goddamn steel so late. So coming from using Efficiency IV diamond pickaxes it seems bad. And working as a shovel is not a point, efficiency pickaxes can do the same already.

The chainsaw working as shears doesn't make any sense to me. Really now, would you shear sheep with a running chainsaw? Also, I would rather have it break the leaves normally than shear them. And btw, Nano Saber and chainsaw both use power when you attack with them so there's really no point to use the chainsaw as a weapon when you have Nano Saber. Yeah you have to activate the saber but it's not that bad.

The Vajra is somewhat balanced by the energy usage but the armor added by the same mod makes it a non-issue anyway.

I'm always going for the optimal solutions because why not. Less work done, more fun had. You can start over if you feel you don't have anything to do.
 

Enigmius1

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Jul 29, 2019
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The Vajra is a horrid abomination that disappoints me for the simple reason multiple reasons, most simply that it boggles me a mod maker would add such a powerful SMP griefing tool. It doesn't matter how long it takes to get it, some of the "best" trolls and griefers would be the "sleeper agent" ones anyways. It pops Hedge, Mazestone, and Iridium Reinforced Stone with a tap, and it would not surprise me for a moment if it the upcoming Warded Doors and Stone from Thaumcraft have no defense against it either. The Mining Laser may be just as absurd, I haven't yet checked, but at least I know that has a convenient config option to disable it. Even ignoring the griefing potential, it frustrates me to no end that some people think it's good game design to trivialize EVERYTHING with the top tier of equipment. Have they never learned from RPGs that do such things that it sucks all the fun out of having new toys if there's nothing left worth using it on? If nothing else, it spoils the fun of trying to defend a base with such high defense blocks as it pretends they're not even there.

A couple of things popped into my head as I was reading this. First, not everyone plays (or cares about) SMP, or they enjoy SMP gameplay on private servers where griefing isn't an issue. If you're on a public SMP server where certain items make it too easy to grief, it's up to the admins of the server to ban those items. Problem solved.

Second, if you're mad that the technology/magic centric mod provides ways for players to easily breach walls, your options are to defend your facilities with something more robust than mundane walls or not play a technology/magic centric modpack with your Minecrafting.

The one problem is that the Advanced diamond drill isn't faster. Testing with the advanced chainsaw yields no faster results either. The only thing, albeit a good advantage, is that the advanced drill can cut through grass and gravel as fast as dirt, which makes terraforming easier. However, I've noticed that it doesn't work on everything the normal drill works on. For example, crystals from Mystcraft can't be quickly mined with the advanced drill, as opposed to the normal one.

Advanced Diamond Drill *is* faster than the stock Diamond Drill. This can be clearly observed by a test on a block of obsidian. You're not going to see a massive difference on trash blocks and such, but something that normally takes several seconds to eat through like obsidian is where you'll see the difference. If you're comparing to a different variant of a Diamond Drill (ie. gregtech variant) that's a whole other issue, but the mod maker didn't promise a drill better than the Diamond Drill as mutated by another mod.

I've never heard of the Vajra, but I'll be using it for sure now. I have an ultimate lappack, so 3k per use is nothing with 10mil storage. That's over 3000 uses in a single trip.

Vajra is fantastic for rapid clearing but you probably don't want to be using it near anything you don't want to break, as it tends to be a little too fast on occasion.

Vajra uses 3333 EU per operation where the advanced drill uses 160. Gravisuit and ultimate solar helmet combo is ridiculously OP and that makes you able to never have to recharge at base. The helmet can charge everything in your inventory and works even in the dark.

Ultimate Solar Helmet wouldn't be able to keep up with a Vajra. It can extend the length of time you can spend in the field but you can still drain your power. 512 EU/t from the helmet (only above ground during the day) won't keep up with 3333 EU/t consumed by a hard working Vajra. I'd also be curious to see if it could keep up with a flying GraviSuit. Not having to recharge at base is a tough criteria to label something OP, I think.

The chainsaw working as shears doesn't make any sense to me. Really now, would you shear sheep with a running chainsaw? Also, I would rather have it break the leaves normally than shear them. And btw, Nano Saber and chainsaw both use power when you attack with them so there's really no point to use the chainsaw as a weapon when you have Nano Saber. Yeah you have to activate the saber but it's not that bad.

The Vajra is somewhat balanced by the energy usage but the armor added by the same mod makes it a non-issue anyway.

I'm always going for the optimal solutions because why not. Less work done, more fun had. You can start over if you feel you don't have anything to do.

Who cares if the chainsaw as shears doesn't make 'sense'? You know what else doesn't make sense? The idea that you'd have a snowball's chance in hell of shearing a wild sheep to begin with...with any kind of tool. "I don't like it because it's not realistic" doesn't belong as a rationalization in a video game unless the game is trying to project a theme of accurate realism. The zombies and walking skeletons with bows that show up every night in Minecraftia shot that to hell pretty quick.

If optimal is what you need ot enjoy yourself, then that's fine. Particularly if you realize tha tyou're pigeonholing yourself into an extremely limited selection of alternatives because there can only ever be one 'best'. It's the tragic idiom that plagues certain components of the MMORPG community. They complain all day long that there's no variety but as soon as the devs offer up some variety, the min-maxers bust out their spreadsheets and within minutes they're back down to one choice and only one choice...the 'best'. Not everyone wants to play that way. If someone wants to use a diamond pick with a certain enchant because it's faster, awesome. I'll be alternating between my drill and my Vajra because I hate repairing or replacing broken tools. That's just my thing. That's how I like to play. What you need to understand is that you may be thinking that such-and-such ruins a game, but others might be loving it. It's not about the devs learning how to do it right, it's about them learning how to do it your way. They did. It's called a config file.
 
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Zelfana

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Ultimate Solar Helmet wouldn't be able to keep up with a Vajra. It can extend the length of time you can spend in the field but you can still drain your power. 512 EU/t from the helmet (only above ground during the day) won't keep up with 3333 EU/t consumed by a hard working Vajra. I'd also be curious to see if it could keep up with a flying GraviSuit. Not having to recharge at base is a tough criteria to label something OP, I think.



Who cares if the chainsaw as shears doesn't make 'sense'? You know what else doesn't make sense? The idea that you'd have a snowball's chance in hell of shearing a wild sheep to begin with...with any kind of tool. "I don't like it because it's not realistic" doesn't belong as a rationalization in a video game unless the game is trying to project a theme of accurate realism. The zombies and walking skeletons with bows that show up every night in Minecraftia shot that to hell pretty quick.

If optimal is what you need ot enjoy yourself, then that's fine. Particularly if you realize tha tyou're pigeonholing yourself into an extremely limited selection of alternatives because there can only ever be one 'best'. It's the tragic idiom that plagues certain components of the MMORPG community. They complain all day long that there's no variety but as soon as the devs offer up some variety, the min-maxers bust out their spreadsheets and within minutes they're back down to one choice and only one choice...the 'best'. Not everyone wants to play that way. If someone wants to use a diamond pick with a certain enchant because it's faster, awesome. I'll be alternating between my drill and my Vajra because I hate repairing or replacing broken tools. That's just my thing. That's how I like to play. What you need to understand is that you may be thinking that such-and-such ruins a game, but others might be loving it. It's not about the devs learning how to do it right, it's about them learning how to do it your way. They did. It's called a config file.
Yeah it can't keep up if you use it so much that it would make more sense to use mining laser instead. Or quarry.

It doesn't keep up with flying but you don't have to use it continuously. It does however keep your quantum armor topped off quite well and the armor itself was already OP and trivializes combat by making you immune to everything. Without the ultimate solar helmet you have to get back to base to recharge but with it you don't and you can actually also keep the normal quantum helmet with you and it will charge that, too, even though you're not wearing it. So you can equip that one when needed.

I'm tired of that video game argument when trying to talk about realism. Minecraft is trying to be realistic with some magical and supernatural addities. Having monsters and shit doesn't automatically mean that realism is out.

Btw, you seem overly hostile about a thing that doesn't matter to you. It's my choice and opinion, you should have your own choice and opinion. But don't hate people for having different choices and opinions.

Configurable features are a point if playing alone, in multiplayer you have to go with the server's config. FTB is trying to make a good default config that should work for most people. It's not that way yet but I'm trying to trust they will get that eventually. GregTech is still kind of hated by half of the player base. I have it enabled for now but disabled the need for steel and rolling machine, they complicate things without adding anything. Steel uses exactly as much basic iron as refined iron and rolling machine simply crafts items that could have a normal crafting recipe, too.
 

ICountFrom0

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a Steel sword beats the nano saber because of the potential for looting or fire aspect

I've seen a nanosaber enchanted. It got unbreaking. It might be a fixed bug now, I'll be testing latter.

Ultimate solar helm, that's the one that makes the quantum helm go from "never eat, breathe, be poisoned or on fire" to "it's on your head" when you make it, right? You give up lots of utility and an inventory spot for food.

... and as an honest question, why does everybody bring up the config file or "just don't use it" every time an imbalance is pointed out? It does not make things balanced again. It's "don't move your arm like that" solution to "Doctor my arm hurts when I move it like this" problem.
 
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