Advanced tools disappointment

[Enigmius1]

Yeah it can't keep up if you use it so much that it would make more sense to use mining laser instead. Or quarry.

It doesn't keep up with flying but you don't have to use it continuously. It does however keep your quantum armor topped off quite well and the armor itself was already OP and trivializes combat by making you immune to everything. Without the ultimate solar helmet you have to get back to base to recharge but with it you don't and you can actually also keep the normal quantum helmet with you and it will charge that, too, even though you're not wearing it. So you can equip that one when needed.

I'm tired of that video game argument when trying to talk about realism. Minecraft is trying to be realistic with some magical and supernatural addities. Having monsters and shit doesn't automatically mean that realism is out.

Btw, you seem overly hostile about a thing that doesn't matter to you. It's my choice and opinion, you should have your own choice and opinion. But don't hate people for having different choices and opinions.

Configurable features are a point if playing alone, in multiplayer you have to go with the server's config. FTB is trying to make a good default config that should work for most people. It's not that way yet but I'm trying to trust they will get that eventually. GregTech is still kind of hated by half of the player base. I have it enabled for now but disabled the need for steel and rolling machine, they complicate things without adding anything. Steel uses exactly as much basic iron as refined iron and rolling machine simply crafts items that could have a normal crafting recipe, too.

"Realism" isn't an argument that you can use in a game that doesn't claim realism because you don't get to cherry pick arguments, and because it's got this enormous effective counter that goes like this: "Such-and-such isn't realistic but you're not complaining about that, so obviously realism isn't that important to you." That's why it's a bad argument. There's a reason people counter it every time it's used.

And if me challenging your point of view is "hostility" to you, let's just stop, or you're going to have an aneurysm over what follows.

I've seen a nanosaber enchanted. It got unbreaking. It might be a fixed bug now, I'll be testing latter.

Ultimate solar helm, that's the one that makes the quantum helm go from "never eat, breathe, be poisoned or on fire" to "it's on your head" when you make it, right? You give up lots of utility and an inventory spot for food.

... and as an honest question, why does everybody bring up the config file or "just don't use it" every time an imbalance is pointed out? It does not make things balanced again. It's "don't move your arm like that" solution to "Doctor my arm hurts when I move it like this" problem.

Because your notion of "imbalanced" doesn't necessarily fit with how everyone else plays the game. As a prime example, someone saying the Vajra is overpowered because it makes it way too easy to grief on public SMP servers is basing their opinion of it being imbalanced on one of several potential environments in which it might be used. Other environments where griefing doesn't occur might be private servers, LAN worlds, or SSP. So does the Vajra need to be taken away from *everyone* with the next patch, or can the select group who have an issue with it be grown-ups about it and take advantage of the options they're given to solve the problem for themselves without impacting those other groups?

That's why people bring up the config.

 

[ICountFrom0]

On the other hand, a well made mod with good balance intrinsically and good api to link it with other mods, and yes a tendency to undershoot the mark rather then to overpower it will more often give you a mod that is not branded as OP or an argument that ends with one side saying, "change the configuration" or "remove it from the pack you use". I could turn around and say, "Fix it in the mod, then YOU change it in the config back to how you wanted it" or "how about you go and install it to the pack and leave it out of the core". The same statement goes both ways, if you want it, add it, if you want it harder, make it harder.

Now that we've both used the argument of "it can be removed" and "it can be added" and "it can be changed" can we get back to the point that, "as released it is not doing a very good job of balance" because, honestly "change the config" is a straw man. Do we see people complaining about water bucket vs water cell vs in a carpenter versions of the recipe for hummus in tree farms in forestry? It's a lovely example of having multiple ways to do things, a mature mod that's well thought out and internally balanced without making sweeping changes to the mechanics of other mods, yet still makes sweeping changes to the world and how you think about automation. How about railcraft. It's messy, it's complicated, and it's growing moreso of both of these things. It's also getting better, smarter, and better made as time passes. Now take another look at gregtech. It has sweeping changes, but to how other mods work rather then having it's own internal structure in most cases. It's not mature and it's not yet well made. I liked it before I tried to use it, but the more I use it the more unusable it's starting to become. Every time it updates I can't decide if the changes that fix things I've complained about have actually made things better or worse. I'd call it the least competent bit of code that I'd tolerate in the pack.

Right, so back to the advanced machines themselves, the subject at hand. I'd say they are better then gregtech, the parts needed are intutitive and smartly chosen. I'd not call it as well thought out as forestry, but it's not meant to be, it's a small mod, a small tweek. If a little fixing will let it detect the few items that it does not already work on and work properly with them, then it gets a stamp 'okay' and I move on. If it does not work on xycorium and crystals, then I'd need to carry them and a regular drill for the crystals, or perhaps a good pick.

But lets face it, the anvil changes things. If you can keep an efficiency 5 diamond pickaxe, with fortune (or silk touch) and unbreaking in one piece, forever, there's less reason to use any of the modded toys. It's just changing the required "fuel" for the "repair".

I am going to add a little more fuel to this, a little more to think about if you would. Grav suit, that recharges, and 1 frame block breaking. Compare that to RedMatter armor, with a swiftwolf ring and a redmatter katar. Now think about the fact that EE3 has removed the top end because it was just "creative mode ++" and rebalanced things back down. Ic2 and mods now give you a more powerful outfit then the magic mods that where overpowered back in 1.2.5.

 

[Zelfana]

"Realism" isn't an argument that you can use in a game that doesn't claim realism because you don't get to cherry pick arguments, and because it's got this enormous effective counter that goes like this: "Such-and-such isn't realistic but you're not complaining about that, so obviously realism isn't that important to you." That's why it's a bad argument. There's a reason people counter it every time it's used.

And if me challenging your point of view is "hostility" to you, let's just stop, or you're going to have an aneurysm over what follows.



Because your notion of "imbalanced" doesn't necessarily fit with how everyone else plays the game. As a prime example, someone saying the Vajra is overpowered because it makes it way too easy to grief on public SMP servers is basing their opinion of it being imbalanced on one of several potential environments in which it might be used. Other environments where griefing doesn't occur might be private servers, LAN worlds, or SSP. So does the Vajra need to be taken away from *everyone* with the next patch, or can the select group who have an issue with it be grown-ups about it and take advantage of the options they're given to solve the problem for themselves without impacting those other groups?

That's why people bring up the config.

I guess YOUR point of view can't be challenged? Like I have said, a mod should be balanced in a way by default that most people are not going to bother with the config file. It's a bad argument to shrug balance issues by saying that you can change the config. If you have to say that to many people then there's a problem. You're not Minecraft's or mods' developer, you don't know what they want.

The chainsaw should not have shears. Instead that should be on the electric hoe which is completely useless without that since it doesn't do anything else but the normal hoe functionality and therefore isn't any better than a wooden hoe. Okay, if you're tilling ridiculous amount of land then it would be something but you don't really have to do that since food is easy to get and you don't need to retill anything anymore. It wouldn't make sense for it to be called a hoe anymore, though, so it should be something else then.

 

[ICountFrom0]

chainsaw shears is just silly, if I had my druthers it would be shears and scythe from redpower combined together in one tool with the HOE, depending on left vs right click, but there's no scythe in ic2 and a hoe with shears alone would be silly, so the chainsaw is the last (but due to division, only) place.

Onion other hand, you've got the division of work in EE you've got it mingled in with the sword and axe, and the morning star has the pick and hammer. I'm not sure stabbing a sheep to take wool makes much more sense either.

I'm sure the gauntlet will have a sheep shearing mode, though anybody who uses that is likely ... well, maybe milbee... *cough*

Anyway, I digress.

Any other multitools come to mind with sheep shearing? If silliness is to be judged, then perhaps we should view this in context.

 

[Lawbroken]

I will be watching this thread.

Please keep in mind that your opinion is your own and please don't try force it onto others.

I will lock this thread if I find that it is getting out of hand with arguing on points of view.

 

[Enigmius1]

I guess YOUR point of view can't be challenged? Like I have said, a mod should be balanced in a way by default that most people are not going to bother with the config file. It's a bad argument to shrug balance issues by saying that you can change the config. If you have to say that to many people then there's a problem. You're not Minecraft's or mods' developer, you don't know what they want.

The chainsaw should not have shears. Instead that should be on the electric hoe which is completely useless without that since it doesn't do anything else but the normal hoe functionality and therefore isn't any better than a wooden hoe. Okay, if you're tilling ridiculous amount of land then it would be something but you don't really have to do that since food is easy to get and you don't need to retill anything anymore. It wouldn't make sense for it to be called a hoe anymore, though, so it should be something else then.

A mod like GraviSuite isn't developed with modpacks in mind, and the features and additions the mod brings to the game are clearly laid out for people before they download the mod. It's very easy to fall into the trap of thinking only in the context of a modpack, but it really comes down to choice. And the config file becomes an extension of that choice. The ability to disable the mod becomes an extension of that choice. I disabled gregtech because it doesn't fit with my interests and reasons for playing the game. I've also made a couple of minor configuration adjustments (re-added copper/tin ore in IC2 and disabled 'hard' recipes in AdvancedSolarPanels.) It's not a big deal. I don't expect everything in a modpack with the scope of FTB to be exactly to my liking and I appreciate that I'm given options to make adjustments to trim out some of the more egregious differences. Complaining that a person 'has' to edit a config or disable a mod to adjust things more in line with how they want to play doesn't make a lot of sense to me. It could be worse...you could have no choice at all.

 

[Squigie]

Shears function was likely added to the chainsaw to have electric shears without creating an entirely new tool. Saplings still drop when shearing, which may feel a bit exploitive,and leaves me with more leaves than I have a use for. I'd like to see a scythe mode added rather than the shears function removed.

The electric hoe is exactly as pointless an upgrade to the wooden hoe as every other hoe is. The advantage is never having to craft a new hoe if one habitually wears a batpack, and is the only advantage it needs other than possibly tilling multiple blocks at once.

My only real complaint is the slowness of the rock cutter. I wish I could slap a few more diamonds onto it to get it up to at least the speed of the basic drill.

 

[Zelfana]

A mod like GraviSuite isn't developed with modpacks in mind, and the features and additions the mod brings to the game are clearly laid out for people before they download the mod. It's very easy to fall into the trap of thinking only in the context of a modpack, but it really comes down to choice. And the config file becomes an extension of that choice. The ability to disable the mod becomes an extension of that choice. I disabled gregtech because it doesn't fit with my interests and reasons for playing the game. I've also made a couple of minor configuration adjustments (re-added copper/tin ore in IC2 and disabled 'hard' recipes in AdvancedSolarPanels.) It's not a big deal. I don't expect everything in a modpack with the scope of FTB to be exactly to my liking and I appreciate that I'm given options to make adjustments to trim out some of the more egregious differences. Complaining that a person 'has' to edit a config or disable a mod to adjust things more in line with how they want to play doesn't make a lot of sense to me. It could be worse...you could have no choice at all.

Well, FTB is here to make these mods into a balanced collection of mods that compliment each other. Might take some time but as long as the mod authors at least put in more options in configs, not just disables but configurable numbers then we could get some better balance. The feedback created from that would make the default options more balanced overall.

Btw, I kind of hate the concept of GraviSuite. Before that you had to choose between a lappack, jetpack or quantum armor. With GraviSuite you get all of that plus the flying is better. Should you really be able to get anything in survival if given enough time and resources? Take EE2, it made the survival practically creative mode. Is there any point playing survival if you don't have to work for your survival? You might argue that it is the reward of doing the work at getting the stuff but after you do it there's nothing left.

I guess you call it complaining but of course we want to give feedback so that things would change. Things do not change if you do nothing. You might be okay with having to change everything to suit yourself. But if most people are changing their configs then it would make more sense to have different default. If the mod is in the pack then it needs to be balanced as such, with more config options the FTB version could be different so it would be in line with other mods.

 

[ICountFrom0]

This is part of why I've come to want twilight forest and aethir (instead of having been against them as I was) as the change in experiance makes the game seem new again. In the aethir EVERYTHING is flight, that so useful grav suit only saves you a little time, and the moa is far more useful. Even a bunny on your head lasts longer.

More and more it seems to me like the modpack needs one more mod, call it FTBMOD for the regular pack and FTBINSANEMOD for the challenge maps. It would go last (just before optifine) in the list and it would make one more set of changes, balances and corrections to the other mods, taking the last step in bringing them together into a more cohesive form. Now we just need somebody with 500 spare hours and a programing mastery.

 

[Yusunoha]

come on guys, don't be so negative about gravisuite, just like rome wasn't build in one day a mod isn't perfect right off the bat.
most mods usually go through several versions before they become more balanced.

yes, gravisuite's items are quite OP, but they are not meant as early game items. they are meant as end game items when you already have enough of resources to do whatever you want.
just like any other mod, give it some time

 

[SilvasRuin]

Second, if you're mad that the technology/magic centric mod provides ways for players to easily breach walls, your options are to defend your facilities with something more robust than mundane walls or not play a technology/magic centric modpack with your Minecrafting.

You clearly missed my point. Part of what sets me off about the Vajra is that ALL walls except forcefields are treated like melting butter. That includes Iridium Reinforced Stone, Hedge, and Mazestone, and in all likelihood the Warded Stone and Warded Doors of Thaumcraft once it is released. These are supposed to be the strongest blocks in the game for protecting things without being indestructible. My problem is NOTHING is "robust" enough, nothing slows down the Vajra unless it's a block that is flagged as -1 Hardness and is therefore entirely indestructible. The only two options there are MFFS and... making the walls out of Personal Safes.

 

[Enigmius1]

You clearly missed my point. Part of what sets me off about the Vajra is that ALL walls except forcefields are treated like melting butter. That includes Iridium Reinforced Stone, Hedge, and Mazestone, and in all likelihood the Warded Stone and Warded Doors of Thaumcraft once it is released. These are supposed to be the strongest blocks in the game for protecting things without being indestructible. My problem is NOTHING is "robust" enough, nothing slows down the Vajra unless it's a block that is flagged as -1 Hardness and is therefore entirely indestructible. The only two options there are MFFS and... making the walls out of Personal Safes.

Well no, I didn't miss your point. We're talking about the absolute top tier weapon in the game currently. Is there any reason it *shouldn't* be able to punch through any wall? Again...you're playing a tech/magic based modpack. It could easily be argued that you *should* need top tier defenses to defend against a top tier weapon, and that means forcefields. It's not a phenomenal leap of logic. There are also ways of killing off players (yes, even quantum/gravisuite geared players) before they have a chance of even getting to your walls. Rise to the challenge. It's not the end of the world.

 

[SilvasRuin]

Explain to me in what way are Hedge, Mazestone, Iridium Reinforced Stone, and Warded Stone and Doors at all "mundane" and justifiably trivialized by anything? (The exception being Mazestone's low blast resistance, a weakness by design.) Iridium Reinforced Stone is supposed to be hard enough to completely(?) stop a nuclear reactor explosion, let alone any tools brought against it. Hedge and Mazestone are supposed to be magically reinforced so that only the Mazebreaker can bypass them. (Hedge is even supposed to come close to killing you for trying to break through it.) Warded Stone and Warded Doors are supposed to be so (magically) hard to break by the people who did not place them that they give up long before they manage to breach them. The Vajra mows them all down for not having a hardness of -1. Justifying a "god item" by saying there's one single item that can counter it is... all kinds of vexing. In a modpack with such diversity, do you really feel comfortable justifying something that trivializes all but ONE other thing in the pack?

 

[Enigmius1]

Explain to me in what way are Hedge, Mazestone, Iridium Reinforced Stone, and Warded Stone and Doors at all "mundane" and justifiably trivialized by anything? (The exception being Mazestone's low blast resistance, a weakness by design.) Iridium Reinforced Stone is supposed to be hard enough to completely(?) stop a nuclear reactor explosion, let alone any tools brought against it. Hedge and Mazestone are supposed to be magically reinforced so that only the Mazebreaker can bypass them. (Hedge is even supposed to come close to killing you for trying to break through it.) Warded Stone and Warded Doors are supposed to be so (magically) hard to break by the people who did not place them that they give up long before they manage to breach them. The Vajra mows them all down for not having a hardness of -1. Justifying a "god item" by saying there's one single item that can counter it is... all kinds of vexing. In a modpack with such diversity, do you really feel comfortable justifying something that trivializes all but ONE other thing in the pack?

Have you made a Vajra and the support items you need to keep it powered and in your possession? It's not a trivial investment. You can start making reinforced stone the minute you install a compressor in your facilities. Not so with a Vajra. I get the feeling that you...and others in this thread complaining about these items...are just reacting to something you read without actually having invested the time and resources to make them. When you have to sit down and work out exactly what you need to make all of these items and keep them viable, all of a sudden you realize that there's an investment to be made, and the return on investment is quite fun and rewarding.

If the admins of the server you play on don't disable the Vajra and it really bothers you, there are other servers. It's not going away. The GraviSuit is not going away. When it comes to building in a survival environment, having the option to fly around and navigate the y-axis is huge. It's a tremendous benefit. Having the option to break hardened surfaces without having to sit there all day watching cracks form is...again...a huge benefit.

You're looking at one narrow aspect of the game and one narrow application of an item. I don't care about your SMP woes, especially when you complain as you do. I play the game a certain way. These items represent a benefit to me in the context of how I play the game, just like gregtech represents an asset to people who focus on IC2 and find the progression too fast. I disabled gregtech because IC2 is a means to me, not an end. It doesn't fit with how I play. If the Vajra doesn't fit with how you play, find an environment where it's disabled.

I don't complain about having to disable mods, or tweak configs. I just do it, and then I'm happy and I enjoy myself. You kvetch about it, and kvetch about it, and argue about it, and you seem awfully miserable. See how the outcomes differ?

 

[SilvasRuin]

I'm quite content actually, except when focused on this context. I have not encountered the problems I'm "kvetching" about yet, thank goodness. I'm not whining because I was griefed.

What I'm doing is trying to get my point across that, no matter how much investment it takes, the item is absurd and if the pack creators have an interest in balance, which they have so far indicated they do, something needs to change. I could probably be described as fanatical about game balance, it's true, but I must stress that my focus is on balance, not freaking out over SMP danger. I'm just as bothered by its applications in SSP as SMP. I have so far focused on the SMP issues because they are issues that cannot be denied (other than the strawman argument, as others have pointed out, of the ability to change configs).

I'll reiterate what others have already said and point to EE2, the controversy about it, the fact that many if not most Tekkit servers had it disabled, and that it broke and turned boring every game that included it unless players just ignored one or more of its features. That is not good game design, and it should be clear that is the case if even the mod maker is taking strides to reign EE in with EE3. He's not just making it take more effort, he's also removing the blatantly overpowered items on top of that. More mod makers should learn from his experiences and realizations. The maker of this mod certainly has not, especially if it is supposed to be considered in isolation. Trivializing the game is only fun for a minority, probably half of which eventually realize how boring the game has become as a result and ultimately abandon the mod that did it anyways. Vanilla Minecraft being too simple and quick to beat is probably one of the biggest reasons players turn to mods in the first place. I'm going by what I've actually heard other players say, not my own experiences.

This add-on was not and should not have been designed with GregTech and Mystcraft in mind, it shouldn't have to change itself to account for Iridium Ore and Dense Ore worlds, correct? Well that's all fine and dandy, except without GregTech there is the Mass Fabricator which takes mere hours (if that) of game time to progress into full time UU Matter production, trivializing the resources needed to make the components of the armor and Vajra. The effort to obtain this device is a moot point. The only thing challenging about it is supplying the EU to fuel it... and it takes great strides to ensure that can be done, at least by providing the Ultimate Lappack, and a well-designed nuclear power plant is going to be able to meet its needs when it's saved for the tough stuff.

Vechs once explained that players burning down or cutting through his bookshelf mazes, and doing similar things, was a little disappointing, to say the least as all the care that went into the design was just swept aside with no appreciation. Likewise, how much worse must the maker of Twilight Forest feel when someone Vajras all the maze walls down after he (or she) went through the effort to make them resist "all" tools but the ultimate reward for beating the mazes?

The team behind the FTB pack have shown that they are willing to edit configs with the intent to better balance the mod pack. They chose to generate multiple silver ores to meet the higher needs that the individual mods did not anticipate. They chose to go with the lower Tin generation for Forestry but have decided to switch to IC2's generation due to it being TOO low. They removed some of the offending GregTech recipe changes but they left the harder recipes for Solar Panels, the Electric Tools, and the Matter Fabricator in. They clearly do have a care for balance... and the Vajra is extremely close to having no balance to it at all. I see a balance issue with the pack and with the mod, and so I shall present it, even despite players that claim "just change the configs to how you want them" yet so adamantly argue against the default being altered from their preference. Tell me, why do YOU even argue for it when you have said it does not bother you to adjust as necessary to your preferences? Is that not hypocritical?

I'll close by saying that I would be satisfied if the Vajra were at least made to behave like an Efficiency VII Diamond Pick. That's well beyond what enchantments can provide, goes well into overkill territory still, and would work well beyond any other tool (except maybe the Mining Laser. I really need to get around to testing that against these blocks), yet it would still at least respect the hyperdefensive blocks' natures.

 

[Enigmius1]

I'm quite content actually, except when focused on this context. I have not encountered the problems I'm "kvetching" about yet, thank goodness. I'm not whining because I was griefed.

<snip>

So this whole thing is about the FTB team not disabling the Vajra in the config so you don't have to? Okay. This whole discussion is going nowhere and can't go anywhere good. Just remember one thing: balance is subjective, and when you're arguing like you're the one entitled to have everything changed to suit you so you don't have to do anything to suit yourself, it doesn't reflect well on you. It's actually pretty selfish. The FTB team only has access to the same things we have access to...the configs. They can't alter the mods directly. They chose to include GraviSuite in the pack and they knew what it brought to the table.

 

[SilvasRuin]

balance is subjective

Only as far as what's being compared, and I believe I've covered the bases on the Vajra. It's only "saving grace" is its EU guzzling, and that's not enough. I've already pointed out how the effort to create it fails as a balancing factor in this case, and there really aren't any other drawbacks to it... other than a bug that causes mod-added creatures to not recognize its damage.

you're arguing like you're the one entitled to have everything changed to suit you so you don't have to do anything to suit yourself

I may be arguing like I'm the one entitled, but I am not arguing so I don't have to do anything to suit myself. I already admitted that I'm fanatical about balance. I want this modpack to be fit together and polished as well as it possibly can be, and I, personally, cannot accept such a grossly overpowered object. Maybe that is entitled. Possibly being seen as feeling entitled doesn't change my stance.

They can't alter the mods directly.

Correct, the mod maker is the one who needs to fix the problems in his tools, from the mod woods not recognizing the advanced chainsaw as an axe to the Vajra being brokenly powerful. All the FTB team can do until and unless the mod maker fixes the problems is to remove the problems.

They chose to include GraviSuite in the pack and they knew what it brought to the table.

They've recognized mistakes and remedied them before. Look at their including Extra Bees in too early a state and their changes to their config defaults for GregTech. They are fully capable of changing their minds.

You still have not explained why you argue so adamantly to keep it as the default when you claim equally adamantly that it is no problem for you to adjust your installation and configs. Would you have argued in this fashion if you had known they were going to remove Extra Bees? Is it perhaps that you care far more about having and using the Vajra than you're trying to let on? Or do you just like arguing against any change not proposed by the FTB themselves? I've explained my motivations, selfish or not. You have yet to explain how your motivations are so unselfish.

 

[Darlock Ahe]

IMHO Vajra can be balanced by one change in configs, How? Turn on Matterfabricator from Gregtech. To create it you need 32 iridium ores or 224 pieces of UUM. If you can create this with gregtechs matterfab, you are already at the point were it doesn't matter if you can mine a chunk in minutes. Basically same thing happened on FTB maps, where at some point it doesn't really matter what tools you have access to, you just got so much resources (in form of EMC), that you can just do everything.

 

[Lawbroken]

This is going around in loops.

Either leave or change/disable configs if you dislike parts of the pack it's why options are there for you.

Any questions about why this was locked start a conversation with me.​