A magic mod with a power system ...

1SDAN

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I personally don't think so. I don't want a single power system for everything; that gets old very fast. I'd rather build several massive systems for everything than a single system for all magic (or tech) mods.
Hmm, then maybe a mod that requires multiple magic power systems to power it's machines! #ThunkItAllMeself[DOUBLEPOST=1398547758][/DOUBLEPOST]
No. Magic mods will NEVER work together like that. Essentia is different from LP. Altar power is different from... that AM2 stuff. Completely different concepts. Entirely. So, no. It wouldn't be awesome. I like mod compatibility, not mod fuckallthethingsity.

Which is why I said that if it was another reality, as in, somewhere anything could have happened.
 

keybounce

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So what I hear is that people are saying that there is "self sacrifice" energy, "sacrificing others" energy, "draining energy from objects" energy, "draining energy from the land (aura nodes)" energy, etc.

Multiple types of energy instead of just a single type of energy.

And free conversion being very, very imbalanced.

Ok, so assume that it would be a very lossy conversion. Like the conversions between mechanical energy, heat energy, radiation energy, potential energy, batteries/voltage, etc.
 

Padfoote

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Ok, so assume that it would be a very lossy conversion. Like the conversions between mechanical energy, heat energy, radiation energy, potential energy, batteries/voltage, etc.
To quote myself:
Magic mods aren't just balanced around a "power system", they're all balanced around different factors. Making even one of those a universal system breaks the balance of the rest.
 
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keybounce

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... 50 Arcane Energy per Arcane Stone. A single Arcane Ore drops 1-5 Arcane Stones. You can also get it from killing hostile mobs, which means a huge passive generation of Arcane Stones simply from dropping mobs 50 blocks or whatever. Now, you may think 50 energy isn't a lot. It is. Most spells from Arcane Scrolls only cost 1-8 energy per use, only the specials cost 50 per use.This means that 8 Arcane Energy is equivalent to 500-10000 Witchery Altar power (for a reference- I don't know the power mechanics of TC4 or AM2). That seems a little OP, amirite?
So what I hear you saying (please correct me if I'm wrong):

1. A single block of AE source provides 50 to 250 units of AE energy. There's more frmo killing mobs. It's cheap. Someone else mentioned that they always stay around the max for AE, in the 10's of thousands.

2. Which implies that you would need in the many thousands of AE energy to generate one unit of energy from another mod.

3. AE energy is a mix of sacrifice/sacrificing others (mob drops), and "infused stone/aura nodes" (the ore blocks), and does not distinguish the types. (Implies the same sort of issues as converting between "It's just Watts" and "It's rotational force times speed". So the conversion will be poor.

To add onto this, this entire power system (when large enough) would be able to fuel everything from Blood Magic. At the same time. So regeneration, lava gen, water gen, massively increased crop growth, summoning of meteors (infinite materials), infinite power gen, and so on. So a "universal magic power system" would murder all balance that has been built into any magic mod.
Except that once you get far enough, Blood Magic is fully automated with massive generation.

Heck, look at a tech mod. Once you get far enough, you have massive generation and automatic mining/harvesting/construction/etc.

Is it any different to say "I can toss huge amounts of easy RF power at an automatic borer, and get lots of materials; I'll toss those lots of materials at a multiplier and gets lots of goodies; I'll toss those goodies into a nuclear reactor; I'll use that reactor to make massive power; I'll use that power to rule the world! Bwa-ha-ha.".
 

ThatOneSlowking

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So what I hear you saying (please correct me if I'm wrong):

1. A single block of AE source provides 50 to 250 units of AE energy. There's more frmo killing mobs. It's cheap. Someone else mentioned that they always stay around the max for AE, in the 10's of thousands.

2. Which implies that you would need in the many thousands of AE energy to generate one unit of energy from another mod.

3. AE energy is a mix of sacrifice/sacrificing others (mob drops), and "infused stone/aura nodes" (the ore blocks), and does not distinguish the types. (Implies the same sort of issues as converting between "It's just Watts" and "It's rotational force times speed". So the conversion will be poor.



Except that once you get far enough, Blood Magic is fully automated with massive generation.

Heck, look at a tech mod. Once you get far enough, you have massive generation and automatic mining/harvesting/construction/etc.

Is it any different to say "I can toss huge amounts of easy RF power at an automatic borer, and get lots of materials; I'll toss those lots of materials at a multiplier and gets lots of goodies; I'll toss those goodies into a nuclear reactor; I'll use that reactor to make massive power; I'll use that power to rule the world! Bwa-ha-ha.".
AE?
 

Padfoote

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Arcane Energy, from Arcane Scrolls.

Except that once you get far enough, Blood Magic is fully automated with massive generation.
I am fully aware of this, however, focusing on one mod lets you skip another magic mod. In this case, going with something like TC4 or AM2 would allow you to completely bypass the early tiers of Blood Magic, allowing you to jump right into that automatic system. It is extremely similar to what Reika has been balancing in RotaryCraft; people were using Magenetostatics to completely bypass the early stages of RotaryCraft.
 

keybounce

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And I actually had RotC in mind when I was thinking of my response.

Yes, you now have upgraded versions of the Magnetoes. (Just a quick check: they are what is used to turn RF into Shaft, right? I have not used them, and don't use RF).

So, this implies that there can be something similar. Maybe blood magic's "generic mana to life power" has a limit for powering anything bigger than a T2 altar or T2 orb. Maybe there's some sort of ritual you do to improve the powering -- a ritual that requires some BM infrastructure. Heck, maybe it requires a T3 ruin to perform -- and we know how hard that T3 altar is compared to the T2 stuff.

Yes, without any such issues, you can use a cheap forestry engine to power some BC machines to make a big IC thing to power rotarycraft processors to get 5-9 times the output and then make first a cheap/easy nuke, followed by a reactor craft nuke. (Forgive me if I have that progression slightly off, the idea should be clear). And yes, there's balancing factors to keep people from just skipping parts -- heck, Jaded should be very clear about this by now, with what I understand to be two different modpacks based on getting people to mix mod progression. So it's not going to be easy to balance.

That doesn't mean impossible.

Reika is learning how to get it done.
So can others.

I'm not saying it is possible to balance.
I'm saying "It must be impossible because it is currently imbalanced" is not a valid response.
 

Padfoote

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I'm saying "It must be impossible because it is currently imbalanced" is not a valid response.
And I'm saying it's impossible because it's not feasible to ask these mod devs to restructure everything to allow this, as well as the fact that it would eat any and all balance currently present in each individual mod.
 
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1SDAN

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Never knows no exceptions ;).
In our reality. But, using the basic properties of the many worlds theory: one can find that everything is, in essence, equally plausible. For example, there IS a reality out there where George Washington played Galaga with Huck Finn.
 

SatanicSanta

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True, but you have to admit that, in some strange alternate reality where it would work and not be OP, that it'd be awesome
I actually don't think it would be awesome. I think it would be the opposite, which is "not awesome".

So what I hear you saying (please correct me if I'm wrong):

1. A single block of AE source provides 50 to 250 units of AE energy. There's more frmo killing mobs. It's cheap. Someone else mentioned that they always stay around the max for AE, in the 10's of thousands.

2. Which implies that you would need in the many thousands of AE energy to generate one unit of energy from another mod.

3. AE energy is a mix of sacrifice/sacrificing others (mob drops), and "infused stone/aura nodes" (the ore blocks), and does not distinguish the types. (Implies the same sort of issues as converting between "It's just Watts" and "It's rotational force times speed". So the conversion will be poor.
1. You get less from killing mobs, usually only a couple per several, but it does get efficient if you have a monster farm. In my Magic World 2 world I had a completely vanilla skeleton farm and I got way more than I could ever need. I said I usually stay around the max after a little bit of mining, and the max is 100,000.

2. No. There is no constantly used energy in Arcane Scrolls. Energy is simply stored (and you can actually get the stones back, because they are also used in crafting) in the pouch. Then, once you use a spell, some of it is gone. The only non-constant energy usage is the Anchor Stone, and even that has some math behind it. A single AS spell should be equivalent to a ritual or spell from another mod, otherwise the conversion would be useless.

3. Could you explain this a little further? I don't quite understand what you are saying.
 

Padfoote

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3. Could you explain this a little further? I don't quite understand what you are saying.
He's trying to say that your example of AE is the same (generally) as sacrificing either yourself or mobs in BM or node manipulation in TC4.
(Which it isn't, but w/e)
 

keybounce

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To clarify what I was saying (And I am going from your description only):

AE has a single type of energy. You get it from killing mobs, or harvesting stuff out of the ground. It's generally easy to get, and store. With a halfway decent automated mob farm, you have a supply that is more than you'll ever use. The Rituals and spells in AE use very little, to the point that you really have no limit.

2. No. There is no constantly used energy in Arcane Scrolls. Energy is simply stored (and you can actually get the stones back, because they are also used in crafting) in the pouch. Then, once you use a spell, some of it is gone. The only non-constant energy usage is the Anchor Stone, and even that has some math behind it. A single AS spell should be equivalent to a ritual or spell from another mod, otherwise the conversion would be useless.
So ... you did not understand me, or I am not understanding you; this has nothing to do with what I said.

I am saying that if you can store tons and tons of energy in AE, and only use tiny amounts, then to export AE energy to "universal mana" would require a very poor conversion ratio, in the order of thousands.

A single AS spell should be equivalent to a ritual or spell from another mod, otherwise the conversion would be useless
Except ... imagine someone that creates a mod with an ore, and lets you make tools from that ore. But you can generate hundreds and hundreds of the ore, trivially. Would you have that ore convert 1 to 1 to iron?

If energy in AE is dirt cheap, then it needs some sort of uniformity. It would be like saying "Here's an engine, built from 2 redstone, a lever, two iron, and a button, that outputs 5000 ergs per tick". People might think it's too powerful to convert 1 erg to 1 RF.

For my case #3: You had said,
50 Arcane Energy per Arcane Stone. A single Arcane Ore drops 1-5 Arcane Stones. You can also get it from killing hostile mobs, which means a huge passive generation of Arcane Stones simply from dropping mobs 50 blocks or whatever.
So it comes from killing mobs -- similar to blood magic's sacrificing rituals -- or from harvesting special blocks -- similar to harvesting infused stone or aura nodes.

There is one source of mana. Many ways to get it, but all the same.

You don't have a difference of earth mana vs life mana vs death mana vs fire mana etc.

Just as a tech mod might distinguish between radiation, heat, steam, voltage, motion (kinetic energy/momentum), pressure, gravity/height, wind, etc., yet we still get a single uniform interchange, with people who have this as a concern make the converter tiered.
 

Padfoote

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Just as a tech mod might distinguish between radiation, heat, steam, voltage, motion (kinetic energy/momentum), pressure, gravity/height, wind, etc., yet we still get a single uniform interchange, with people who have this as a concern make the converter tiered.
But here's the thing: magic mods are not tech mods. Their energy systems are different, and for different balancing purposes within each mod. You cannot simply convert one to another with a formula / tiered conversion / essence from some rare mythical creature and satisfy the balancing that several mod authors want in their mods. My point:
Tech mod balancing != magic.
My tiering system in Totemic is going to be how you play music, the power is irreverent and is just a way to power it.
Witcherys power is used to both tier, and power things (with a cost of items through rites)
Magic mods are incompatible in close to every way, usually.
It wouldn't work, ever.
 
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casilleroatr

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One of the reasons that I think different tech mods can have a reasonable conversion between energy systems is because most systems have in common a way to produce energy from coal, from charcoal, from lava etc. Furthermore, many tech mods have in some part of their tech tree some kind of ore processing (for example) so you can start to draw realistic comparisons because different energy systems in different mods are doing the same kind of work. Finally, I suspect that Buildcraft and IC2 have had a great influence over the way players and developers view tech mod energy.

None of these conditions really exist for magic mods. There aren't many common examples of similar work between magic mods (especially when you are talking about work which uses some form of power). The only example I can think of off the top of my head is the calefactor and the arcane furnace. They both use energy but in completely different ways. Thaumcraft only uses "energy" to increase the speed of operation and it can operate without it. (Speed can also be increased with non-energy bellows). The ars system requires energy but depending on the type of energy it receives it works differently. So yes there are similarities, but they are pretty superficial. Whereas the electric furnace and the mekanism furnace are incredibly similar (IC2 and mekanism of course differentiate themselves in other ways).

Also, another major problem I envisage with conversion is that even if you could say that a fully charged greatwood wand is worth a quarter full light nexus, a fully charged silverwood wand is not worth half a light nexus even though the ratios appear the same. That is because the difference in effort between getting and filling a greatwood wand and doing the same with a silverwood wand is huge, requiring an infusion and all sorts, whereas to fill the light nexus up more you just have to wait a bit longer. Tl:dr I should have just said that the power scales differently, but as usual it is late and I'm typing while tired

I do like the idea of a magic mod implementing a power system that can accept power from other mods (magic or otherwise) to affect itself (I hope that makes sense). I wouldn't be against a magic mod which runs its blocks on super mana and added a way of converting vis to super mana for example, but it should probably be done in a way that only affects the balance of the mod itself, not every other magic mod too. (So no using super mana to make any type of vis for example, or producing LP because you aren't just bypassing power, you are bypassing major gameplay mechanics.

Another Tl:dr, you know its bad when there is a tl:dr in the middle of the text and another huge paragraph underneath. Y'all should probably ignore this post, but I live free so I'm posting it anyway