Pretty much. I don't like AS either, but I also don't like maps in general
A crazy idea...
- Thread starter ShneekeyTheLost
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AS feels more like "The Beast" from 1.2.5 days. After all, you have this quest system that needs feeding from nothing.
Also not too keen on the map. Ex Nilo makes it too easy to get resources, and all the hording quests are too much of a grind, especially if playing single player. They are designed really for automated systems that you leave chunkloaded on a server. Prefer the old system of manipulating EMC and using "quest rewards" to advance.
Playing AS though as there are a number of mods I'm not familiar with, and the quest book is quite well written to introduce you to the mods and basic concepts.
Troll rewards are getting annoying though in the bags, oh, look, another potion of invisibility, or another set of Morv purple coloured wood blocks.
Also not too keen on the map. Ex Nilo makes it too easy to get resources, and all the hording quests are too much of a grind, especially if playing single player. They are designed really for automated systems that you leave chunkloaded on a server. Prefer the old system of manipulating EMC and using "quest rewards" to advance.
Playing AS though as there are a number of mods I'm not familiar with, and the quest book is quite well written to introduce you to the mods and basic concepts.
Troll rewards are getting annoying though in the bags, oh, look, another potion of invisibility, or another set of Morv purple coloured wood blocks.
So getting back on topic, what do you think of Shneeky's concept? Ex Aquilo http://www.minecraftforum.net/topic/2391195-addon164-ex-aliquo-an-ex-nihilo-companion/ is an addon for Ex Nihilo that kinda bridges the gap between skyblock and non-skyblock maps. I'm not that familiar with it. I know that it a part of ResRise/Yogs packs, that's about it. Its may be useful with the no ores concept.
I got the idea watching @KirinDave and his latest RR LP with Su. They've got ExNi and ExAq installed in the pack, and I was like 'okay... why bother with those when you've already got worldgen?', to which my mind answered 'okay, but what if worldgen didn't actually include anything they provide?"
It seems like I'm getting a few responses here, and I'd like some feedback to see if I'm hearing this correctly:
Point 1: Oh jeez, you replace ore mining with something boring and grindy
Point 2: Eh, I wasn't a fan of skyblocks or ExNi in the first place, but it sounds like others might
Point 3: It goes too far away from what Minecraft is.
I'm not sure of how to solve Point 1 without also getting a rebuttal of 'creative mode lite' due to how easy it is to obtain materials via ExNi. I mean, by the time you get your first Autonomous Activator, you've got passive ore generation. I did intend these to replace quarries, and I will certainly be using the AgSkies recipes to make it charge you for doing it, however anything that reduces the grind of the sifters prior to getting Activators is just going to nudge it in this direction way too fast. If anyone has ideas, I'm all ears.
Point two seems kind of like a mixed bag, but it raises an important and valid concern. This isn't a skyblock map, but it has some things in common with a skyblock map (lack of easily obtainable resources... outside of dirt/gravel/sand/stone). This is likely to put some players off. Those who like skyblock maps may see it as 'too nancy' because you actually give them a world to start on, whereas those who don't like skyblocks hear 'no ore gen' and reply with 'pass'. Being neither fish nor foul, it is likely to draw criticism from both parties. Again, any advice on this is welcome.
Point 3 is... well... I dunno. Modded Minecraft hasn't really been about being very 'minecrafty'. Look at IC2 and BC... they introduced a whole hell of a lot of concepts that are completely absent in Minecraft, and yet people don't complain about them not being very minecrafty. Yes, it is a dramatic and fundamental change of one of the core mechanics of Minecraft, literally half the name of the game. But does this, in and of itself, invalidate the idea?
Lastly, I would like to point out that this isn't a MAP, this is an idea for a MOD PACK, where this is the intended game play style for the pack. There's no one set map (although I bet map seeds for 'interesting' starts would be quite entertaining to pass around), and all the surface flora and fauna are still around.
In fact, I'd probably say Night 1 is probably going to be more dangerous this way, because you likely won't have ores yet but WILL have all the spawns that naturally occur. So you're going to need to build your hovel of shame et al on a lower resource level than typical for some. Your first 'week' will be the hardest, and will likely be harder than normal modded minecraft. Because you have no reason to immediately go delving, you're more likely to be on the surface where all the mobs are spawning.
I'm planning on definitely including the Better Dungeons mod to give players something to explore. Probably BoP, Botania, and others as well. If you've got any ideas on mods that would encourage players to go exploring, by all means! But I will say this gives people the unique opportunity to just settle down pretty much wherever they want, and are not punished for not being particularly adventurous. Those who crave adventure can find it. Those who are not are not punished for that lack.
It seems like I'm getting a few responses here, and I'd like some feedback to see if I'm hearing this correctly:
Point 1: Oh jeez, you replace ore mining with something boring and grindy
Point 2: Eh, I wasn't a fan of skyblocks or ExNi in the first place, but it sounds like others might
Point 3: It goes too far away from what Minecraft is.
I'm not sure of how to solve Point 1 without also getting a rebuttal of 'creative mode lite' due to how easy it is to obtain materials via ExNi. I mean, by the time you get your first Autonomous Activator, you've got passive ore generation. I did intend these to replace quarries, and I will certainly be using the AgSkies recipes to make it charge you for doing it, however anything that reduces the grind of the sifters prior to getting Activators is just going to nudge it in this direction way too fast. If anyone has ideas, I'm all ears.
Point two seems kind of like a mixed bag, but it raises an important and valid concern. This isn't a skyblock map, but it has some things in common with a skyblock map (lack of easily obtainable resources... outside of dirt/gravel/sand/stone). This is likely to put some players off. Those who like skyblock maps may see it as 'too nancy' because you actually give them a world to start on, whereas those who don't like skyblocks hear 'no ore gen' and reply with 'pass'. Being neither fish nor foul, it is likely to draw criticism from both parties. Again, any advice on this is welcome.
Point 3 is... well... I dunno. Modded Minecraft hasn't really been about being very 'minecrafty'. Look at IC2 and BC... they introduced a whole hell of a lot of concepts that are completely absent in Minecraft, and yet people don't complain about them not being very minecrafty. Yes, it is a dramatic and fundamental change of one of the core mechanics of Minecraft, literally half the name of the game. But does this, in and of itself, invalidate the idea?
Lastly, I would like to point out that this isn't a MAP, this is an idea for a MOD PACK, where this is the intended game play style for the pack. There's no one set map (although I bet map seeds for 'interesting' starts would be quite entertaining to pass around), and all the surface flora and fauna are still around.
In fact, I'd probably say Night 1 is probably going to be more dangerous this way, because you likely won't have ores yet but WILL have all the spawns that naturally occur. So you're going to need to build your hovel of shame et al on a lower resource level than typical for some. Your first 'week' will be the hardest, and will likely be harder than normal modded minecraft. Because you have no reason to immediately go delving, you're more likely to be on the surface where all the mobs are spawning.
I'm planning on definitely including the Better Dungeons mod to give players something to explore. Probably BoP, Botania, and others as well. If you've got any ideas on mods that would encourage players to go exploring, by all means! But I will say this gives people the unique opportunity to just settle down pretty much wherever they want, and are not punished for not being particularly adventurous. Those who crave adventure can find it. Those who are not are not punished for that lack.
I don't think point # 1 is all that much of a point, really, because the main way you get ores that isn't hopping around open caves (which is exactly what you would be doing to find the other forms of worldgen that would be present) is digging down to an appropriate level for what you what to find and going in a straight line picking ores up as you go. I suppose other people might have different opinions on the matter, but that's precisely the sort I thing I personally would consider 'boring and grindy' - Modded minecraft in general seems to agree with that idea with things like automatic miners and metal plants and things do double/triple/etc your metal output so that you don't have to bother with it longer than absolutely necessary.
Also I was planning on changing the recipe for the Magmatic Dynamos. Something involving either Blaze Rods or Eyes of Ender, to compensate for how ridiculously easy ExNi makes lava generation.
Or you could Nerf the hell out of the energy production from it
Not really, people would still spam them. As it stands, invar is actually quite easy to obtain, so the only thing dropping the energy production of the Magmatic Dynamo would do is force them to build that many times more of them. I thought about dramatically increasing lava demands, but that would only cause server-crashing levels of crucibles.
So, jack up the price of Magmatic Dynamos. Either something you need to hit the nether to get, or eyes of ender. Basically, if you don't need to build an Ender-Thermic Pump, I'll make you pay for the materials another way!
Yup. 0 RF a tick sounds about right to me.
You say they would spam engines but think about the survivalist generator. producing 5 RF/t yet is incredibly efficient. They aren't spammed...
Point 1: It sounds novel. It doesn't appeal to me but it should find a suitable audience. I've never touched AS, Blood & Bones, Magic Farm or any other pack that drastically changes my mainstreamed mod experience. Despite that these packs have dedicated fans. I think you'll gain a similarly loyal following.
Point 2: See my thoughts on point 1. I'm actually having a ball with 1.7 right now. I've only got 34 mods and they're poorly configured. I'm finally not fighting through mod progression. I'm building cool stuff with a flavor of mods. Basically I'm not the target audience.
I DO see the novelty of your idea and feel you should give it a shot. I lack the knowledge of modded sky block so I can't offer any solid suggestions. Anything I may think of may already be addressed with recipe changes or other dynamics.
Go for it though. Honestly, it sounds cool.
Point 2: See my thoughts on point 1. I'm actually having a ball with 1.7 right now. I've only got 34 mods and they're poorly configured. I'm finally not fighting through mod progression. I'm building cool stuff with a flavor of mods. Basically I'm not the target audience.
I DO see the novelty of your idea and feel you should give it a shot. I lack the knowledge of modded sky block so I can't offer any solid suggestions. Anything I may think of may already be addressed with recipe changes or other dynamics.
Go for it though. Honestly, it sounds cool.
Almost no one knows about the survivalist generator, and I happen to use them rather frequently. Four or so of them are exceptionally good at keeping a tree farm running smoothly.
Basically, by gating materials like blaze rods which, in this mod pack, can only be obtained in the Nether, you force them to start something up first. And let's be honest, once you get to the Nether, lava is easy to obtain anyway.
I used 3 survivalist gens to great effect when I speed ran a world through to KAMI. I used one to keep my electrolytic separator running. It was fueling a hydrogen generator that powered my mfr grinder and spawners. I kept it fueled with coal from grinding withers. I really enjoy them.
That is a tricky one. I've been playing Arg Skies, and I've had automated lava generation and mob farm/grinder up and running long before I managed to get my 2nd emerald for my first activator. RNG was against me.
What I feel is a bit stupid, is now that I've got this activator, I can leave it muching away, and eventually I'll get the resources for more activators (emeralds/diamonds). I feel that the activator should have a recipe that uses drops you only get from Gravel, Sand and Dust (so you need all 3 automated for a true self generating system). Since Activators are "self powered" (aka power free), perhaps include in the recipe a leadstone energy cell, that's a big lead/redstone investment per activator, but not so subject to the low RNG chance of needing diamonds/emeralds. The Arg Skies recipe just makes it a needless grind/time sink until the moment it just snowballs and you are drowning in resources.
Part of the problem too is that it's a energy less fire and forget system to gather resources (once automated). What you'd gain from this system would outclass any other ore mining/generating system out there.
One thought I had is perhaps restrict Ex Nilo in generating just the basic common materials from the sieve (iron, copper, tin, coal) and then have something that can be built and powered that allows the more exotic resources to be extracted/generated (not sure how you'd do that, but between mods and minetweaker, something would be possible) I think in my Arg Skies world I could actually build a number of tesseracts while I was after my 2nd emerald, I have so much platinum, blaze dust (and enderpearls from my mob farm)! Just from a wood and string setup. Kinda breaks the "balancing" that TE3 had with needing silktouched redstone for cinabar and a machine for creating shiny ingots.
Also, I feel the start of this pack would be pretty "boring". Step one, get resources to build a sieve (string and wood, not too hard), Step two, hide away near a source of gravel, sieve it like mad, gain all ore types for basically a bit of wood/string and time. You lose the tool upgrade progression, needing better tools to mine harder materials, any survival risks against mobs/environment.
After that, the gameplay is basically the same as any other pack.
I think you should still generate the minimal amount of ores possible, just as a teaser/reward for anyone who does go exploring. 1 cluster of size 4 of each ore, at any level.
Ok, enough rambling from me
I've been trying to go over a few things to see if I can solve a few problems, however I'm having mixed results.
Autonomous Activators + Sieves = WTFPWN ore production. And it snowballs rather rapidly. Now, quarries have always made resource acquiring less tedious, but Activators + Sieves are way better at it, so I am trying to come up with some ways to make it less powerful. Wasn't there a config option to make sieves less productive if there more of them in the area or something? Or become less productive the more it was used? Something like that.
Second, there's zero reason to go to the Nether with ExNhi. Soulsand nets you most of the useful nether materials from the comfort and safety of your home, which can be obtained with witch water and sand. This... needs to be fixed. Disable blaze spawning? Maybe even disable creation of soulsand, since there's already a viable source in the Nether?
I also want to provide some challenges (other than the questing system) for the players. What was that mod that gave random modifiers to mobs? That ought to be interesting, and make classic mob farms a touch more... unreliable. What I do NOT want to do is have a bunch of 'create 10,000 of this stuff, and 100 octuple-compressed shenanigans' quests. That's just... grindy. Which I don't like. Something like an Invasion mod? Mobs will occasionally form up invasions which are going to need to be met? Better Dungeons will be around, and that can provide some fun and challenge, but there needs to be more.
Autonomous Activators + Sieves = WTFPWN ore production. And it snowballs rather rapidly. Now, quarries have always made resource acquiring less tedious, but Activators + Sieves are way better at it, so I am trying to come up with some ways to make it less powerful. Wasn't there a config option to make sieves less productive if there more of them in the area or something? Or become less productive the more it was used? Something like that.
Second, there's zero reason to go to the Nether with ExNhi. Soulsand nets you most of the useful nether materials from the comfort and safety of your home, which can be obtained with witch water and sand. This... needs to be fixed. Disable blaze spawning? Maybe even disable creation of soulsand, since there's already a viable source in the Nether?
I also want to provide some challenges (other than the questing system) for the players. What was that mod that gave random modifiers to mobs? That ought to be interesting, and make classic mob farms a touch more... unreliable. What I do NOT want to do is have a bunch of 'create 10,000 of this stuff, and 100 octuple-compressed shenanigans' quests. That's just... grindy. Which I don't like. Something like an Invasion mod? Mobs will occasionally form up invasions which are going to need to be met? Better Dungeons will be around, and that can provide some fun and challenge, but there needs to be more.
1. You know, there is the config that makes it impossible to automate Sieves that RR uses. Hammering can still be automatic, but you could disable auto-sieving to eliminate the snowball entirely, or just significantly downgrade the results. I wish we could make ore spawn in AM2's Moo Moo Farm or something like that for endgame.
2. Yeah, I'd say go for disabling of Blaze spawning and Soulsand production.
3. The random modifiers mod is Infernal Mobs.
I may be somewhat stealing your idea Shneekey (sorry!), but I'd be interested to get your opinion on my take on this concept so I'll just drop the link in here: http://forum.feed-the-beast.com/threads/hqm-pack-map-development-no-more.46315/
Your pack idea is pretty much like my own personal pack.
I reduced ore gen to 25%, changed configs to more expensive recipes, used MineTweaker to change recipes/tech paths/disable certain "easy" things.
To counter the reduced ore gen, I've given players some extra options.
Easiest is Magic Crops, but heavily changed from default (only 1 output from craft, only 5% of an extra seed). Will give you trickle resources
After that I used Father Toasts Mob properties to give various mobs more equipment from mobs (heavily damaged) and the chance of dropping various ingots/nuggets and other loot. Combined with Simple Recycling mod and a method to repair equipment, a mob farm can produce a good source of resources (depending on the efficiency of your farm and repair system).
Also added Silverfish to world gen, but they have a chance of dropping ore dusts on death.
I also use Better Dungeons, they are a great source of materials, if you can survive.
To add to the risk, also running Zombie Awareness, Hunger Overhaul & EnviroMine
I reduced ore gen to 25%, changed configs to more expensive recipes, used MineTweaker to change recipes/tech paths/disable certain "easy" things.
To counter the reduced ore gen, I've given players some extra options.
Easiest is Magic Crops, but heavily changed from default (only 1 output from craft, only 5% of an extra seed). Will give you trickle resources
After that I used Father Toasts Mob properties to give various mobs more equipment from mobs (heavily damaged) and the chance of dropping various ingots/nuggets and other loot. Combined with Simple Recycling mod and a method to repair equipment, a mob farm can produce a good source of resources (depending on the efficiency of your farm and repair system).
Also added Silverfish to world gen, but they have a chance of dropping ore dusts on death.
I also use Better Dungeons, they are a great source of materials, if you can survive.
To add to the risk, also running Zombie Awareness, Hunger Overhaul & EnviroMine
Interesting, but I'm using an RF-based pack rather than MJ, so I'm using Thermal Expansion (Mekanism can also output RF) and Big Reactors for end-game energy output.
I was thinking about a completely different way.... the whole idea of sifting for the metals.. why not take metals like ferrous, and shiny metal to be obtained maybe iron with a much larger percentage than either of the two... That way you can vary up the process of collecting materials.. It's boring doing things one way... It might be a bit more fun to spread your methods of obtaining a material about...