[1.7.10][LISTED] InfiTech 2 Modpack v3.2.21 [HQM][GregTech balanced hard-mode modpack]

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Ieldra

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Apr 25, 2014
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My concern is that for most energy sources, the RTG utterly dominates this 90-day scenario, never even mind the 365 day scenario or more. Even my ultra-sweet-and-probably-OP thorium reactor might fail the 90-day test compared to the RTG, and as an energy source it itself is pretty ridiculous. But it also costs an absolutely monstrous quantity of resources to build plus has an ongoing running cost. Big Reactors would fail the 90 day test badly compared to RTG because yellorium is much, much harder to accumulate cheaply. Its hard to quantify "rarity" of a metal into cost, so I can't compare to, say, naquadah, but setting RNG aside, there's no way to easily and cheaply get large quantities of yellorium fuel.
OK, those are numbers I understand. The difference in perception probably comes in when counting fuel supply. Yellorium is hard to accumulate if you mine manually, but much easier if you do random automining, since it's equally distributed unlike GT ores. Which means you can put down an Ender Quarry anywhere and get usable amounts of yellorium from it. It may take some time since most likely you won't be able to run it at high speed, but nonetheless I count it cheap because I don't need to do anything except to wait, and at standard speed it doesn't cost more power than an MV EBF. Thorium is much harder since you need to go prospecting before you mine, manually or automatically.

In the end, it may be more appropriate to compare RTGs to other renewable power sources. I have used two other such sources: tree farm/coke oven/RC boiler and turbine, and fusion. I haven't run material costs for either, but I suspect they may be in the same order of magnitude as the RTG if you relate material investment to power output - and here we can dispense with the total time since all of them can run for an infinite time without any additional material requirement. The main difference is that both are *way* more complex, and as long as the matter is that RTGs are too simple to build you'll get no argument from me. I don't want the construction or the design to be easy, but yes, I admit that I very much prefer the running costs to be low to non-existent. With both the tree-based and the fusion-based power, the running costs - and I count "required attention" as cost as well as materials - were limited to having to repair (or replace) turbine rotors now and then. If this is possible at the 250 EU/t level and the 25000 EU/t level, I don't see why it shouldn't be possible at the 2500 EU/t level? Well, without spamming tree farms, anyway, which is boring.
 

Pyure

Not Totally Useless
Aug 14, 2013
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Waterloo, Ontario
OK, those are numbers I understand. The difference in perception probably comes in when counting fuel supply. Yellorium is hard to accumulate if you mine manually, but much easier if you do random automining, since it's equally distributed unlike GT ores. Which means you can put down an Ender Quarry anywhere and get usable amounts of yellorium from it. It may take some time since most likely you won't be able to run it at high speed, but nonetheless I count it cheap because I don't need to do anything except to wait, and at standard speed it doesn't cost more power than an MV EBF. Thorium is much harder since you need to go prospecting before you mine, manually or automatically.
This is testable. You can run an ender quarry on a given area (say a 2x2=4 chunk) at its most efficient settings (no upgrades?) and see how much power it costs to get a yellorite ore. (Power spent/ores found).

Unfortunately I have a full testing queue tonight but I can't imagine the results are going to be very promising.

For thorium, mining it is essentially free: You are already mining that area anyway, you know exactly where everything is, its all compressed into a GT ore vein, so you can grab it all via thaumcraft arcane bores.
 

DarknessShadow

New Member
Jul 29, 2019
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I've just checked to see if a fusion reactor with renewable aluminuium + lithium -> sulfur plasma is viable.

Making 1mb UUmatter costs 102.880EU without Amplifier and 25.720EU with Amplifier.
7 Clay Dust in Electrolyser = 1 Lithium + 2 Aluminium
To make 7 Clay Dust you need 14 Clay

Making 1 Clay costs 23.08mb UUmatter + 118.272EU in the Replicator
Making 14 Clay costs 323,12mb UUmatter + 1.655.808EU in the Replicator
23,08mb UUmatter without Amplifier = 2.374.655,04 EU
23,08mb UUmatter with Amplifier = 593.617,6 EU
323,12mb UUmatter without Amplifier = 23.880.505,6 EU
323,12mb UUmatter with Amplifier = 8.310.646 EU

323,12mb UUmatter cost without Amplifier + Replicator cost = 25.536.313,6 EU
323,12mb UUmatter cost with Amplifier + Replicator cost = 9.966.454 EU

1 bucket Sulfur Plasma gives 32.768.000 EU
Making 1 bucket of Sulfur Plasma in the Fusion Reactor costs 2.621.440 EU
Effective output: 32.768.000 EU - 2.621.440 EU = 30.146.560 EU

Result:
Producing the aluminium and lithium for the fusion reactor recipe without amplifier results in a power reduction of 84,7%
But producing it with amplifier only results in a reduction of 33,06% which makes this option actually really good for renewable fusion :)
 
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Pyure

Not Totally Useless
Aug 14, 2013
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Dammit DS, in English, we use decimals as our decimal operator, and commas as a thousands separator. I can't read your numbers at all :p
 

DarknessShadow

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Jul 29, 2019
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Dammit DS, in English, we use decimals as our decimal operator, and commas as a thousands separator. I can't read your numbers at all :p
I know :p but not in germany.

Btw how exactly does the Replicator use 0.08mb of UUmatter?
5YIrH05.jpg
 
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Nickolas Wood

New Member
Jul 29, 2019
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On the RTG debate... solar panels are disabled in this pack... why aren't RTG's? It is my personal belief that in a hardcore pack, nothing should be infinite or free. Everything should have an ongoing maintenance cost be that parts, fuel or energy. Nothing should be gated by time alone.

Even with plutonium worldgen disabled, it only takes time to make it. It is gated by an energy source that is not infinite and is complex but the goal once there will be for most to stockpile plutonium for RTG's effectively killing off the nuclear age altogether given time. The goal at that point should be fusion, the single, stable (maybe), ongoing, renewable energy source. In my book, there should be 1 and only 1 form of infinite energy and it should be end game, highest tier only.
 

DarknessShadow

New Member
Jul 29, 2019
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On the RTG debate... solar panels are disabled in this pack... why aren't RTG's? It is my personal belief that in a hardcore pack, nothing should be infinite or free. Everything should have an ongoing maintenance cost be that parts, fuel or energy. Nothing should be gated by time alone.

Even with plutonium worldgen disabled, it only takes time to make it. It is gated by an energy source that is not infinite and is complex but the goal once there will be for most to stockpile plutonium for RTG's effectively killing off the nuclear age altogether given time. The goal at that point should be fusion, the single, stable (maybe), ongoing, renewable energy source. In my book, there should be 1 and only 1 form of infinite energy and it should be end game, highest tier only.
The normal 1eu/t solar is not disabled.

Getting the plutonium from the depleted fuel rods is very very very slow and you will probably use the plutonium in MOX fuels instead of RTG also you wont be able to spam RTGs.
 

semedori

New Member
Jul 29, 2019
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Also just for test try to place a block into them when you are in creative to see if its just ann ownership problem
It appears to be the Carpenter's Blocks mod dev version:
With 3.3.7 Carpenter's Blocks in my creative or survival, existing or new carpenter's blocks would not interact.
Reverting to 3.3.6 Carpenter's Blocks, existing carpenter's blocks would not interact, but placing new blocks would then work as expected.
 

Xavion

New Member
Jul 29, 2019
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Result:
Producing the aluminium and lithium for the fusion reactor recipe without amplifier results in a power reduction of 84,7%
But producing it with amplifier only results in a reduction of 33,06% which makes this option actually really good for renewable fusion :)
Note that the numbers get massively better if instead of UU matter you use a farm, as you'd be needing something to create the amplifier anyway making a farm for it should be easy, the full and total numbers for it.

7 Clay Dust in Electrolyser = 1 Lithium + 2 Aluminium for 18,480 EU
18 Dirt in Centrifuge = 1 Clay Dust for 135,000 EU
1 Bio Chaff in Macerator = 1 Dirt for 800 EU
1 Plantball in Macerator = 1 Bio Chaff for 800 EU
1 Tiny Lithium Dust in Fluid Extractor = 16mB Molten Lithium for 60 EU
1 Aluminium Dust in EBF = 1 Aluminium Ingot for 204,000 EU
1 Aluminium Ingot in Furnace = 9 Aluminium Nugget for 0 EU
1 Aluminium Nugget in Fluid Extractor = 16mB Molten Aluminium for 86 EU

Making 1 Aluminium Dust into 144mB Molten Aluminium costs 204,774 EU
Making 1 Lithium Dust into 144mB Molten Lithium costs 540 EU
Making 18 Dirt costs 28,800 EU
Making 7 Clay Dust costs 1,146,600 EU
Making 144mB Molten Aluminum and 144mB Molten Lithium costs 1,351,914 EU

1,125mB Sulfur Plasma provides 36,864,000 EU
1,125mB Sulfur Plasma in a Fusion Reactor costs 3,354,120 EU, 144mB Molten Aluminium, and 144mB Molten Lithium
Effective output: 36,864,000 EU - 3,354,120 EU = 33,509,880 EU

Result:
Producing the aluminium and lithium for the fusion reactor with plants results in a reduction of 4.03% which makes this option far outstrip UU matter with amplifier giving 43.3% more energy.

Is it possible to generate power with solars at all, given the combination of GT power loss mechanics and the fact you can't connect GT cables to them directly?
Yep, I've tested and it is. The key two parts are dealing with those issues you mentioned, the second is easy, GT solar panels are actually machine covers and can be placed directly on cables to generate power. The first is trickier until you remember that one type of cable has no loss, that's red alloy cable which has the unfortunate downside of being ULV so it's utterly useless in pretty much every conceivable situation, solar panels are the only thing I've found so far that's actually ULV. So that means if you use 12x red alloy cable you can generate 12 EU/t at 12 amps in it, the next trick to the process is that you can put covers on the side of a cable to prevent it connecting through that side, this allows you to place those lines of cable with solar panels directly next to each other, wood covers are incredibly cheap and easy to make so useful to use here. The final trick is harnessing that power, I tested a bit before deciding on CESUs, because IC2 is still using their broken enet implementation their machines just care about EU/t and not volts/amps so it can accept huge amounts of amps as long as the total EU/t is below 128 which you can't actually reach so it's fine accept 36 amps or whatever. Then you pump batteries into it to fill up with power and transfer to MFSUs which discharge them allowing you to convert up to EV without loss and you've got a stable method of producing power from solar panels, you'll need absurd amounts of solar panels to do anything significant of course and they only run 60% of the time or whatever it was decided they do but it is possible to use the power from them without losing it all to cable loss or anything.
 
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DarknessShadow

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Jul 29, 2019
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Note that the numbers get massively better if instead of UU matter you use a farm, as you'd be needing something to create the amplifier anyway making a farm for it should be easy, the full and total numbers for it.

7 Clay Dust in Electrolyser = 1 Lithium + 2 Aluminium for 18,480 EU
18 Dirt in Centrifuge = 1 Clay Dust for 135,000 EU
1 Bio Chaff in Macerator = 1 Dirt for 800 EU
1 Plantball in Macerator = 1 Bio Chaff for 800 EU
1 Tiny Lithium Dust in Fluid Extractor = 16mB Molten Lithium for 60 EU
1 Aluminium Dust in EBF = 1 Aluminium Ingot for 204,000 EU
1 Aluminium Ingot in Furnace = 9 Aluminium Nugget for 0 EU
1 Aluminium Nugget in Fluid Extractor = 16mB Molten Aluminium for 86 EU

Making 1 Aluminium Dust into 144mB Molten Aluminium costs 204,774 EU
Making 1 Lithium Dust into 144mB Molten Lithium costs 540 EU
Making 18 Dirt costs 28,800 EU
Making 7 Clay Dust costs 1,146,600 EU
Making 144mB Molten Aluminum and 144mB Molten Lithium costs 1,351,914 EU

1,125mB Sulfur Plasma provides 36,864,000 EU
1,125mB Sulfur Plasma in a Fusion Reactor costs 3,354,120 EU, 144mB Molten Aluminium, and 144mB Molten Lithium
Effective output: 36,864,000 EU - 3,354,120 EU = 33,509,880 EU

Result:
Producing the aluminium and lithium for the fusion reactor with plants results in a reduction of 4.03% which makes this option far outstrip UU matter with amplifier giving 43.3% more energy.
Nice

Now I just have to make something to produce 126 Dirt every 288 ticks (0.4375 Dirt/t)
8 Sugar Cane = 1 Plantball so I only need 3,5 Sugar Cane / tick

Hm...
Making 1 Dirt with UUmatter only costs 0.1446mb and 1024EU
naeNvPy.jpg

18 Dirt = 2,6028mb UUmatter + 18k EU
2,6028mb UUmatter costs 66k EU with Amplifier and 267k EU without

Cost for 2 Aluminium dust + 1 Lithium = 1,869 million EU without Amplifier
Cost for 2 Aluminium dust + 1 Lithium = 462k EU with Amplifier
Making 1 Aluminium Dust into 144mB Molten Aluminium costs 204,774 EU
Making 1 Lithium Dust into 144mB Molten Lithium costs 540 EU
Without Amplifier = 2.074.314 EU
With Amplifier = 667.314 EU

Effective output:
Without Amplifier: 36.864.000 EU - 2.074.314 EU - 2.949.120 EU = 31.840.566 EU reduction of 15,777%
With Amplifier: 36.864.000 EU - 667.314 EU - 2.949.120 EU = 33.247.566 EU reduction of 10,877%

or make a farm that can produce 3,5 Sugar Cane / tick
 
Last edited:

Xavion

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Jul 29, 2019
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Cost for 2 Aluminium dust + 1 Lithium = 462k EU with Amplifier
Wrong, 462k EU with amplifier is the amount just spent making UU. You also have to account for the various other machines such as the cost of making the dirt, centrifuging it, and then electrolyzing the clay to get the actual cost of getting the dusts. That whole process adds 126k EU for replicating the dirt with, 945k EU for centrifuging the dirt, and 18k EU for actually electrolyzing the clay for a total of 1,551k EU. Add in the 205k EU for getting it into molten form and it brings the process up to about 1.8 million EU, that makes sense as all you changed was the method of getting dirt so it being 448k EU more expensive is what should be the result. Which means that the actual cost is 14% of the what is required to make the sulfur plasma, and adjusting my number to be in line with yours gives 12.8% reduction.

So yeah, replicating dirt is easier so probably better given the effort to grow that many pumpkins/fruit. Although IC2 crops or forestry trees would be your best bets, it's only 4 pumpkins per biochaff after all but fruit trees may give better returns, never really tried mass production of either of them. Max IC2 crops grow very fast and produce a lot of output though.
 

Nickolas Wood

New Member
Jul 29, 2019
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The normal 1eu/t solar is not disabled.

The single IC2 solar panel that shows up in NEI for me (it is the 1 EU/t one) has no recipe associated with it... hover over it and press r, not sure if that is intended or not. If it is, could we get that NEI entry hidden?

I even removed my mekanism.zs file just in case it was in some way messing with ti; no difference.
 

Xavion

New Member
Jul 29, 2019
1,025
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The single IC2 solar panel that shows up in NEI for me (it is the 1 EU/t one) has no recipe associated with it... hover over it and press r, not sure if that is intended or not. If it is, could we get that NEI entry hidden?

I even removed my mekanism.zs file just in case it was in some way messing with ti; no difference.
That could be worth doing, it's disabled though because GT has their own solar panels and those are enabled. At least the most basic one is enabled.
 

Nickolas Wood

New Member
Jul 29, 2019
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Also, on the concept of hiding NEI entries, minetweaker cannot hide things with null metadata; withTag({}). INpureCore can. I was able to hide the last few bits of mekanism using INpureCore. I wanted to pass that along in case that has been an issue.
 

Jason McRay

New Member
Jul 29, 2019
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It appears to be the Carpenter's Blocks mod dev version:
With 3.3.7 Carpenter's Blocks in my creative or survival, existing or new carpenter's blocks would not interact.
Reverting to 3.3.6 Carpenter's Blocks, existing carpenter's blocks would not interact, but placing new blocks would then work as expected.
I am trying to recreate the issue with 3.3.7 and I am unable to. Everything works as it should. placing Gold Block to Carpenters block to change their block appeareacne works fine

Might be worth talking to Mineshopper to see if he can find the cause of this with you. https://github.com/Mineshopper/carpentersblocks/issues
 

Jason McRay

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Jul 29, 2019
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Uh I'm already using a few RS Latches, I hope they're ok :p (they're finicky but they work)
RS Latches are fine. only Toggle Latches are causing world corruption. I talked to Amardones (one of BP Dev) and he said that he will see what he can do :)