[1.6.x] Thaumcraft 4.0.5b Research Cheat Sheet - 1Mil Views!! - Topic above me is a doodoo head. HA!
- Thread starter Succubism
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As I said before, if it makes you unhappy, stop. You have no obligation to continue, and if it makes you miserable, why continue doing it?
I seriously doubt it's really about the mod -- it sounds to me like you're getting burned out, and the only real cure for that is to take a break. Then too, you have your recent marriage, with all the changes and new priorities implied by that. Small wonder that a computer game suddenly seems less important! ("Being forced to pay attention to something that doesn't appear important" is actually one of the practical definitions of boredom.)
No no, I can get motivated to do it whenever I please, I just don't know to what end anymore. I need to "want" to do this.
My ultimate reason for doing this would be to support the mod I've grown attached to.
Call me petty, overattached, change-o-phobic, broken record-ish or just plain cynical, but now? Well, I'm not so sure what my reasons are anymore.
The last tiny bit of reason I have left to keep doing this is to help you guys, but honestly I feel as though someone with more time/energy/passion can and will do a better job than I can eventually. More power to them, tbh.
My ultimate reason for doing this would be to support the mod I've grown attached to.
Call me petty, overattached, change-o-phobic, broken record-ish or just plain cynical, but now? Well, I'm not so sure what my reasons are anymore.
The last tiny bit of reason I have left to keep doing this is to help you guys, but honestly I feel as though someone with more time/energy/passion can and will do a better job than I can eventually. More power to them, tbh.
Listen to yourself! "I can get motivated to do it whenever I please"? Oh, come on, now! That's the refrain of something that's become a chore.
The thing is, you've spent a lot of time working on these cheat sheets, and you got a lot of rewards out of it. Essentially, you learned "working on the cheat sheet feels good" -- classic conditioning. But suddenly the rewards have stopped coming. Your subconscious doesn't understand the reasons, because it doesn't do reasons. So now you're pawing at the lever, wondering what happened to the endorphin hit it used to give you. It's time for you to sit back and look around, to figure out what feels good to do now.
Take a break. You can always come back later, if and when you start feeling the enthusiasm again.
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The purple bar is the liquid essentia that needs to be placed into the warded jars. What version of TC are you running? If it is 4.1 you might have to remove all of the pipes and use the alchemy golem instead. The pipe got a big nerf. They can only hold one essentia until you close off the warded jar that should hold that essentia with a valve.
It might also be that hoppers have so much essentia, that it cant burn before more of the essentia inside is distributed from the alchemical furnace.
Actually, I can see his point.
There's not really any need for a "cheat sheet" anymore, except perhaps to show a) research dependency, b) hidden research, and c) which aspects are built of which others, and possibly d) which items have which aspects.
You don't need to know which aspects apply to a particular research, since the minigame basically shows them to you (and if you're missing one of the aspects, you just need to go around and scan more things or combine more aspects in order to get the aspect unlocked).
It isn't that there isn't a "reward" feeling for having done the cheat sheets that's now not there anymore. It's literally that there's no point to making a cheat sheet - not in the same vein as before. Now it's just copying the information from the Thaumonomicon and posting it on a forum. That's hardly invigorating.
Ohh...
Any way to accelerate the draining of the essentia?
Its really going slow then, takes like 2 minutes for it to go down enough so the next hopper can go
(no, I will not update to 4.1)
Well, you must have good eyesight, given it went so far over your head.
I'm trying not to be mean here, but both Succubism's and my own recent comments aren't really about the cheat sheets, or even the game. (ETA: Or were you talking about her point?)I advise some real world research, based on keywords such as "reward conditioning" and "burnout". "Motivation", "endorphins" and "fulfillment" are also good, but those will lead in many different directions, far beyond this discussion.
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Oh, wait, you're not on 4.1 yet? Then the answer is much simpler:
- Make 3 or 4 arcane bellows, and attach them to the sides of the furnace. I use three, because I use the fourth side for an input hopper.
- Use alumentum for fuel. This and the bellows are much more important for complex items like a hopper.
- Make sure you have enough empty jars for all the essentia you're producing, all connected by pipes to the top of the furnace. For a full stack of hoppers, that means a jar for each point of each aspect in a hopper. For aspects that you don't want multiple jars of, you can use a single void jar.
- Make some labels. As the distillation gets going, stick one on each jar that shows a new aspect (wear your goggles), or an aspect that's already filled its previous jar. This keeps the aspect from taking up more jars than it should. (Don't label a void jar until it shows one of the aspects you want to limit.)
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Well, you must have good eyesight, given it went so far over your head.
I advise some real world research, based on keywords such as "reward conditioning" and "burnout". "Motivation", "endorphins" and "fulfillment" are also good, but those will lead in many different directions, far beyond this discussion.
Succubism is talking about how he (or she? I don't know the gender. I guess she's a she, since I hadn't noticed the signature info) doesn't like the current version of Thaumcraft, and also "I just don't know to what end anymore".
I know about reward conditioning and burnout and motivation and endorphins and so on. But I think you're trying to tout hoity-toity psychology terms you might have taken a class about or read a little bit about, without actually reading what I said.
There isn't really a need for a cheat sheet anymore. And Succubism has already talked about some of the things she didn't like about the new Thaumcraft. She only wants to continue updating this cheat sheet because it's for a mod she's grown attached to - despite not liking the direction it's been taking. My point about not having anything useful for a cheat sheet anymore still stands.
I don't appreciate the way you talk down at me by bolding "real world" research.
Maybe you should clarify for me what "ETA" is supposed to mean... Estimated Time of Arrival? Did you just mean "Edit"?
Consider:
Succubism said:
It may be true that there's some burnout, and it's still true that nobody will mind if Succubism takes a break.
But part of that burnout came from an argument with Azanor, apparently, even though the details aren't really any of our business. Yes, she said it wasn't the fact that the cheat sheet isn't really useful anymore which was making her dislike the new research system...
Point is, the cheat sheet can't really be done because there's not really any point. The few things she could do up that would be kinda useful (like a list of what items have what aspects, etc) seem like a lot of effort for very little gain, especially if the mod isn't really moving in the direction she hoped.
Anyway, I don't mean to come off as too snooty, but I really don't like being talked down to by a random stranger. I think it was extremely uncalled for.
Funny that you say that I apparently am the one missing something, when you haven't seemed to read any of the past few posts by Succubism at all :/ She's pretty clear about a lot of the reasons she has for feeling burned out, and while she does say a couple of them are unrelated to the cheat sheet itself (IRL things, and so on), one of her main points is that she doesn't see a point in continuing a cheat sheet if there's nothing really worth putting on it.
I might have missed gender (and too quickly assume everyone I read posts from online are male, no matter the screen name or avatar - it's never meant as offense, though!) but I think that's besides the point at hand.
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taggedjc: To begin with, ETA stands for "Edited To Add" -- it took me a little while to realize that you had in fact completely ignored both Succubism's signatures and her avatars. When I originally posted, I was assuming you were talking about my point about burnout... given that I am a "him", and have a default icon indicating so.
My responses to Succubism reflect rather more than "terms I might have taken a class about" -- bluntly, between education, exploration, and experience, I know more about human psychology than some folks who call themselves therapists. (Indeed, that's sort-of connected to my choice of posting name.) I've also had personal experience with burnout in particular, both from the inside and from supporting others. And after 30 years on the 'Net, I'm pretty good at reading not only the literal words of a message, but the implications as well. Which also makes it clear to me that no, you don't "know about" the points I was discussing, certainly not in any practical sense. To unpack the comparison implied by that scrap of bold text: Unlike the game research that Succubism has been documenting, real-world knowledge takes more than dragging a keyword or few into place. And people who do know a topic can tell the difference.
Yes, it's true that there are other sorts of resources Succubism (or anyone else) could work on that would be quite useful to the community. If you look at my prior posts, you'll see that I suggested a few ideas, as have others. But she made it clear that her basic issue wasn't "what to do", it was "whether to do anything". That's the difference between dropping a particular project, and being burned out on the "scene" around it. And that's why I switched over from suggesting projects to simply advising her to take a break.
You say you "too quickly assume everyone [you] read posts from online are male". It doesn't matter whether that's "never meant as offense"... it's darn well offensive to most folks who aren't male, and to some who are. Far more so, when discussing someone who's made a highly visible point of being female. It says you can't be bothered to notice that there actually are women and girls in the community, so you'll just assume everyone's a guy like yourself. (That question-mark icon doesn't save you here. See above about "implications".) And yet, you're pretty quick to take offense yourself, and complain about "being talked down to". Believe me, I'm being a lot politer than some folks would be. Especially about this point.
My responses to Succubism reflect rather more than "terms I might have taken a class about" -- bluntly, between education, exploration, and experience, I know more about human psychology than some folks who call themselves therapists. (Indeed, that's sort-of connected to my choice of posting name.) I've also had personal experience with burnout in particular, both from the inside and from supporting others. And after 30 years on the 'Net, I'm pretty good at reading not only the literal words of a message, but the implications as well. Which also makes it clear to me that no, you don't "know about" the points I was discussing, certainly not in any practical sense. To unpack the comparison implied by that scrap of bold text: Unlike the game research that Succubism has been documenting, real-world knowledge takes more than dragging a keyword or few into place. And people who do know a topic can tell the difference.
Yes, it's true that there are other sorts of resources Succubism (or anyone else) could work on that would be quite useful to the community. If you look at my prior posts, you'll see that I suggested a few ideas, as have others. But she made it clear that her basic issue wasn't "what to do", it was "whether to do anything". That's the difference between dropping a particular project, and being burned out on the "scene" around it. And that's why I switched over from suggesting projects to simply advising her to take a break.
You say you "too quickly assume everyone [you] read posts from online are male". It doesn't matter whether that's "never meant as offense"... it's darn well offensive to most folks who aren't male, and to some who are. Far more so, when discussing someone who's made a highly visible point of being female. It says you can't be bothered to notice that there actually are women and girls in the community, so you'll just assume everyone's a guy like yourself. (That question-mark icon doesn't save you here. See above about "implications".) And yet, you're pretty quick to take offense yourself, and complain about "being talked down to". Believe me, I'm being a lot politer than some folks would be. Especially about this point.
I didn't ignore the signatures and avatar - the signature text is tiny, and the avatar is no indication of someone's gender (I have seen many males online using female icons and avatars, anyway). Regardless, I wasn't reading her posts when I was typing my reply - just your response, and that didn't have any indication of her gender except for her name (which isn't any indication of gender, either, in this online forum).
I took offense because you meant for me to take offense. With the derisive opening comment followed by the eyeroll emoticon, followed by snide remarks about "real knowledge" that "I obviously lack". I don't think that's really appropriate.
All I was doing was saying that I saw Succubism's point in that there isn't really much point in continuing work on this, since there's very little actual "cheat sheet" left to do.
On top of that, it's obvious that she's not happy with the direction Thaumcraft is taking - it's not a simple case of no longer getting "endorphins" out of it because of "reward conditioning" and "burnout". That might be a part of it, certainly - working on anything for a long time is obviously going to have its highs and lows, and the easy solution is to take a break from it. I'm not arguing that point - Succubism shouldn't feel forced to update her cheat sheet just because she's worked on it so far, no matter what the reason she doesn't care to work on it anymore.
I love that there are females in the community - they're just more uncommon. I personally am male, but I'm also gay, which is another minority online, but I don't get offended when someone assumes I'm straight (or a female, as the case may be). But regardless, me noticing or not noticing someone's gender isn't the point here, and is completely separate from the point I was trying to make (and that I think Succubism was also trying to make, which is why I was pointing it out). You don't need to strawman me up in an attempt to make my position seem weaker.
Just before it, you made a post saying that "I seriously doubt it's really about the mod -- it sounds to me like you're getting burned out, and the only real cure for that is to take a break."
And then she immediately replies with "No no, I can get motivated to do it whenever I please, I just don't know to what end anymore. I need to 'want' to do this." She also just before it said "I don't exactly like to think a Mod that introduced me to a lot of cool people is slowly becoming poopy."
It's just that I can see her point. In two respects, she doesn't really want to maintain the cheat sheet anymore because a) there's nothing really to include anymore, and b) she doesn't even like the direction it's taking. It doesn't just have to do with burnout. If the mod was going in directions she enjoyed, and a cheat sheet was still something really useful, I'm sure she'd find it invigorating to be updating it. But now it feels like a chore, for the reasons she has stated.
I personally think it's really pretentious to say "No, no. I know exactly why you're feeling and acting the way you are, because I know a lot more about psychology than even most therapists, so: there, there. It's okay! You're just suffering from what I think you're suffering from and it's okay because it's only natural" when she very clearly said that wasn't the reason, or at least not the only reason. It makes you sound like you're talking down at her, too - being a kind of "parent" who is just trying to soothe the suffering. While it's nice of you to want to help, telling someone that they're feeling a certain way for a certain reason despite their protests to otherwise isn't a way to go about it.
You could have stuck with "Well, don't worry about updating the sheet. Nobody minds if you want to take a break from it!" instead of trying to psychodiagnose her and tell her what you think is "wrong" with her.
I took offense because you meant for me to take offense. With the derisive opening comment followed by the eyeroll emoticon, followed by snide remarks about "real knowledge" that "I obviously lack". I don't think that's really appropriate.
All I was doing was saying that I saw Succubism's point in that there isn't really much point in continuing work on this, since there's very little actual "cheat sheet" left to do.
On top of that, it's obvious that she's not happy with the direction Thaumcraft is taking - it's not a simple case of no longer getting "endorphins" out of it because of "reward conditioning" and "burnout". That might be a part of it, certainly - working on anything for a long time is obviously going to have its highs and lows, and the easy solution is to take a break from it. I'm not arguing that point - Succubism shouldn't feel forced to update her cheat sheet just because she's worked on it so far, no matter what the reason she doesn't care to work on it anymore.
I love that there are females in the community - they're just more uncommon. I personally am male, but I'm also gay, which is another minority online, but I don't get offended when someone assumes I'm straight (or a female, as the case may be). But regardless, me noticing or not noticing someone's gender isn't the point here, and is completely separate from the point I was trying to make (and that I think Succubism was also trying to make, which is why I was pointing it out). You don't need to strawman me up in an attempt to make my position seem weaker.
Just before it, you made a post saying that "I seriously doubt it's really about the mod -- it sounds to me like you're getting burned out, and the only real cure for that is to take a break."
And then she immediately replies with "No no, I can get motivated to do it whenever I please, I just don't know to what end anymore. I need to 'want' to do this." She also just before it said "I don't exactly like to think a Mod that introduced me to a lot of cool people is slowly becoming poopy."
It's just that I can see her point. In two respects, she doesn't really want to maintain the cheat sheet anymore because a) there's nothing really to include anymore, and b) she doesn't even like the direction it's taking. It doesn't just have to do with burnout. If the mod was going in directions she enjoyed, and a cheat sheet was still something really useful, I'm sure she'd find it invigorating to be updating it. But now it feels like a chore, for the reasons she has stated.
I personally think it's really pretentious to say "No, no. I know exactly why you're feeling and acting the way you are, because I know a lot more about psychology than even most therapists, so: there, there. It's okay! You're just suffering from what I think you're suffering from and it's okay because it's only natural" when she very clearly said that wasn't the reason, or at least not the only reason. It makes you sound like you're talking down at her, too - being a kind of "parent" who is just trying to soothe the suffering. While it's nice of you to want to help, telling someone that they're feeling a certain way for a certain reason despite their protests to otherwise isn't a way to go about it.
You could have stuck with "Well, don't worry about updating the sheet. Nobody minds if you want to take a break from it!" instead of trying to psychodiagnose her and tell her what you think is "wrong" with her.
Regardless of whats going on, does anyone have access to a aspect progress requirement tree? ( A + B = C, B + C = D, etc)
The old tree I used got taken down and I prefer discovering aspects via combination research rather then incessant scanning as if I discover everything, THEN scan, I can better track what have and haven't scanned yet.
The old tree I used got taken down and I prefer discovering aspects via combination research rather then incessant scanning as if I discover everything, THEN scan, I can better track what have and haven't scanned yet.
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As far as "knowing what she's feeling".... that's where actually having gone through burnout becomes a lot more relevant. Because I've been through it, and experienced the progression, and as a result learned more about it afterwards, I can recognize certain patterns.
Succubism can certainly speak up for herself (though I'm hoping that her silence represents her actually taking that break), but what I saw was this: Firstly, she herself brought up burnout early on. Secondly, even when people had been suggesting other projects, her responses were not in the vein of "oh yeah, I'll do something else!", they were "eh, maybe, whatever". Her tone suggested a more general discouragement, including the "poopy" comment. Thirdly, at the same time, she was still feeling that she "ought to" work on the cheat sheet, even after she'd recognized it as pointless. That "locked-in" feeling, of being helpless to change course, is a key part of burnout, possibly the part that makes it different from simple discouragement or exhaustion. If someone else is forcing you to do something, you can at least resent them, or rebel outright. If, say, you need an abusive job for the money, you can at least resist, putting less effort into the work or otherwise "disengaging in place". But if you're forcing yourself, that's... not so simple. And the thing is, once burnout takes hold, it starts distorting your logic, making it difficult to recognize the feedback loops involved. The bit about reward conditioning was admittedly a guess about why she was pushing herself. But, it was a pretty educated guess based on my experience with other volunteer and self-motivated projects... and it's a case where calling out the problem can quickly depower it, breaking the loop. So I called it out.
Succubism can certainly speak up for herself (though I'm hoping that her silence represents her actually taking that break), but what I saw was this: Firstly, she herself brought up burnout early on. Secondly, even when people had been suggesting other projects, her responses were not in the vein of "oh yeah, I'll do something else!", they were "eh, maybe, whatever". Her tone suggested a more general discouragement, including the "poopy" comment. Thirdly, at the same time, she was still feeling that she "ought to" work on the cheat sheet, even after she'd recognized it as pointless. That "locked-in" feeling, of being helpless to change course, is a key part of burnout, possibly the part that makes it different from simple discouragement or exhaustion. If someone else is forcing you to do something, you can at least resent them, or rebel outright. If, say, you need an abusive job for the money, you can at least resist, putting less effort into the work or otherwise "disengaging in place". But if you're forcing yourself, that's... not so simple. And the thing is, once burnout takes hold, it starts distorting your logic, making it difficult to recognize the feedback loops involved. The bit about reward conditioning was admittedly a guess about why she was pushing herself. But, it was a pretty educated guess based on my experience with other volunteer and self-motivated projects... and it's a case where calling out the problem can quickly depower it, breaking the loop. So I called it out.
Alright. Sorry for getting this so off-topic, guys.
I don't mean to cause strife. I just found the tone to be really condescending when I was just trying to help, just as you were.
Anyway, as far as an essence combining chart goes, I made this which shows all of the Aspects and what they're made up of (left-side to right side).
Perditio / Aer / Ignis / Aqua / Terra / Ordo are primal aspects that you start with. From there, combine:
Terra + Terra = Saxum
Terra + Aqua = Victus
Terra + Victus = Granum
Terra + Granum = Herba
Terra + Herba = Arbor
Aqua + Saxum = Vitreus
Aqua + Ordo = Gelum
Aqua + Aer = Tempestas
Ordo + Ignis = Potentia
Ordo + Aer = Motus
Ordo + Saxum = Metallum
Motus + Aqua = Permutatio
Motus + Terra = Iter
Motus + Victus = Bestia
Motus + Aer = Volatus
Motus + Perditio = Vinculum
Aer + Ignis = Lux
Aer + Perditio = Vacuos
Vacuos + Potentia = Praecantatio
Vacuos + Lux = Tenebrae
Vacuos + Tenebrae = Alienis
Praecantatio + Perditio = Vitium
Praecantatio + Aer = Auram
Victus + Victus = Sano
Victus + Aqua = Limus
Victus + Perditio = Mortuus
Victus + Vacuos = Fames
Mortuus + Motus = Exanimis
Mortuus + Victus = Spiritus
Mortuus + Bestia = Corpus
Mortuus + Aqua = Venenum
Spiritus + Aer = Sensus
Spiritus + Terra = Cognitio
Cognitio + Bestia = Humanus
Humanus + Fames = Lucrum
Humanus + Granum = Messis
Humanus + Saxum = Perfodio
Humanus + Ordo = Instrumentum
Humanus + Messis = Meto
Instrumentum + Motus = Machine
Instrumentum + Perditio = Telum
Instrumentum + Bestia = Pannus
Instrumentum + Humanus = Fabrico
Instrumentum + Terra = Tutamen
That should get you all of the aspects in the base Thaumcraft (Magic Bees adds Tempus, which is Vacuos + Ordo).
I don't mean to cause strife. I just found the tone to be really condescending when I was just trying to help, just as you were.
Anyway, as far as an essence combining chart goes, I made this which shows all of the Aspects and what they're made up of (left-side to right side).
Perditio / Aer / Ignis / Aqua / Terra / Ordo are primal aspects that you start with. From there, combine:
Terra + Terra = Saxum
Terra + Aqua = Victus
Terra + Victus = Granum
Terra + Granum = Herba
Terra + Herba = Arbor
Aqua + Saxum = Vitreus
Aqua + Ordo = Gelum
Aqua + Aer = Tempestas
Ordo + Ignis = Potentia
Ordo + Aer = Motus
Ordo + Saxum = Metallum
Motus + Aqua = Permutatio
Motus + Terra = Iter
Motus + Victus = Bestia
Motus + Aer = Volatus
Motus + Perditio = Vinculum
Aer + Ignis = Lux
Aer + Perditio = Vacuos
Vacuos + Potentia = Praecantatio
Vacuos + Lux = Tenebrae
Vacuos + Tenebrae = Alienis
Praecantatio + Perditio = Vitium
Praecantatio + Aer = Auram
Victus + Victus = Sano
Victus + Aqua = Limus
Victus + Perditio = Mortuus
Victus + Vacuos = Fames
Mortuus + Motus = Exanimis
Mortuus + Victus = Spiritus
Mortuus + Bestia = Corpus
Mortuus + Aqua = Venenum
Spiritus + Aer = Sensus
Spiritus + Terra = Cognitio
Cognitio + Bestia = Humanus
Humanus + Fames = Lucrum
Humanus + Granum = Messis
Humanus + Saxum = Perfodio
Humanus + Ordo = Instrumentum
Humanus + Messis = Meto
Instrumentum + Motus = Machine
Instrumentum + Perditio = Telum
Instrumentum + Bestia = Pannus
Instrumentum + Humanus = Fabrico
Instrumentum + Terra = Tutamen
That should get you all of the aspects in the base Thaumcraft (Magic Bees adds Tempus, which is Vacuos + Ordo).