Yea with efficiently nerfed to the ground especially for the fuel, that their high costs just don't justifies their outputs anymore.. May as well burn the things in other generations that may be cheaper to run/easier to come by at the start of the game.
1.6.4 Liquid Fuel Boiler fuel changes.
- Thread starter Sarda
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It was a great feeling getting my 1st boiler up and running and it still felt like a worthy accomplishment in my 2nd world, but by my 3rd world with boilers, it was "meh".
Balancing mods is not easy, it's even harder if you try to balance multiple mods simultaneously. Balancing is completely an iterative progress and it might be good to judge the version that has all the balance changes inplace, instead of rushing to cry and complain immediately. They just create a better gaming experience for you and most certainly have a better understanding on what the mods need.
It'll all be fine in the end
It'll all be fine in the end
Just figured I'd throw in my 2 cents here - no single aspect of a mod is balanced in a vacuum. On the surface, some of this might seem a bit heavy handed, but frankly the additions of the Oil Biome and renewable Oil Springs offset a lot of it. You just need a bit more infrastructure than you previously did.
Also, the Firestone is brilliant and removes a lot of the startup inefficiency.
Not to mention it's configurable. Win-win across the board.
Also, the Firestone is brilliant and removes a lot of the startup inefficiency.
Not to mention it's configurable. Win-win across the board.
The problem with this change in terms of the oil is you simply need to move pumps 4 times as often. It doesn't require more infrastructure, just more tedious pump maintenance, which puts it in the company of another, high-maintenance mod that is often used as an example of !!FUN!!
And, the Firestone is interesting, but not something which alters gameplay for most people, at least not according to the feedback in this and other threads on FTB.
But, overall, I'm thankful for the change. It has forced (encouraged) me to consider mods for baseline and on-demand power production.
Its incredibly random but its supposed to be 1/32 chance to spawn a oil block above it every 5 minutes, so basically yah its worthless. Collecting oil from them is a bitch as well, because lets say you got a 50x50 block of them; the pump only collects from the spring its directly above and all the ones touching it that are ready for harvest. So you'll have like a checkerboard of ready/not-readys that will be even more delayed by collecting because chance didn't link enough of them together.
The Firestone is great and all but it only affects the Solid Boiler which was already fine and fuel infinite, a Liquid Boiler can't use them and its the thing that's in dire need right now.
alright so it a bucket of oil every 160 minutes or 2 hours and 40 minutes. Yea.. the efforts to pump it that rate is well beyond worth having a "field" of it. Because liquid TPs would easily use up much more power than it would "harvest" from the operations.
Oil Springs produce 8 MJ/t of basically free energy. Heck, I can probably even buff that now.
EDIT: Yep, buffed back to 32 MJ/t.
https://github.com/BuildCraft/BuildCraft/commit/05fedb059edbefb57a1730322be3a3f1871c3a1a
EDIT: Yep, buffed back to 32 MJ/t.
https://github.com/BuildCraft/BuildCraft/commit/05fedb059edbefb57a1730322be3a3f1871c3a1a
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We're both thinking about the same thing right? Those bedrock looking things that appear underneath oil wells that super rarely produce blocks of unmoving oil? How are you getting 8MJ of energy out of one of those.
Edit response to Edit:
"It should now produce 4x time amount of Oil, resulting in the same energy output from before the Oil nerf."
...cept that it requires 4x the refinery energy use to purify it so its still a loss.
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Are you implying that the Refinery processing costs are greater than the energy you get out of the resulting fuel? I find that hard to believe.
It costs 12 MJ to refine 1 mB, 1 mB of Fuel gives you 150 MJ in a combustion engine. By comparision 1 mB of Oil gives you 15 MJ. Net profit, 123 MJ.
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For some reason, your above post doesnt display your second paragraph with refinery calculations.
Without going OT, there's been a lot of discussion about the future direction for buildcraft MJ. Can you direct me to a post that outlines that vision?
No. I'm implying that refinery costs are 4x greater then they are in 1.5 as a result of having to process 4x the amount of oil to get the equivilent amount of MJ from 1.6 fuel that you got from 1.5 fuel. 1.5 you spend 12000MJ to refine to 600,000MJ. 1.6 is 48000MJ to refine to 600,000MJ.That's still 6% less MJ your getting per bucket, which for a system that already got overlooked as being not worth it, doesn't help its case that it requires 4x as much unrefined to get only 94% of what you got before.
This still doesn't change the fact that we now have 4x as much liquid shuffling around in pipes, 4x the refineries going as before, more pumps, ect; all eating cpu to maintain the same energy production we had before. Less server taxing to just feed the machine Planks.
My math is a little different, but I think he's factoring in passive energy draw or some new change I'm unaware of as well.
1,000mB in a bucket of Fuel, 1.6 Fuel is worth 150,000MJ, 150,000/1000=150 per mB. 12MJ to refine 1mb in a refinery, 12x1000=12000MJ spent. 150,000-12,000=138,000MJ/1000mB=138MJ per 1mB after refinery cost.
Yes, thanks for the link. Helps us understand how you want BC to differentiate from other mods.
You've given me a great idea -- Rather than spamming Railcraft boilers, I will consider using the "on demand" as a design principle for my next world.
Same will apply to ore-processing (pulv/smelt on demand), farming (applying fertilizer or enabling tree farm when stocks are low), fetching oil, and so on.
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Is halving the value of charcoal remotely enough to go "on demand" for more than the first few hours in a new world?
Too me at least, it just means 2-4 more furnaces burning charcoal, and maybe a few extra cows for fertilizer for my farm, which is might have to be a 5x5, rather than a 3x3. And maybe use more mk 2 provider pipes/modules to cut the amount of entities in pipes if framerate takes a hit.
Seems to me like any nerf big enough to warrant "on demand"-designs for final builds would be so harsh to the early game it would be almost impossible to get started with that first quarry/machine shop. Some other mechanic would be required for that. (Like, say, exploding conductive pipes, or boilers/engines not accepting fuel through pipes...)
Too me at least, it just means 2-4 more furnaces burning charcoal, and maybe a few extra cows for fertilizer for my farm, which is might have to be a 5x5, rather than a 3x3. And maybe use more mk 2 provider pipes/modules to cut the amount of entities in pipes if framerate takes a hit.
Seems to me like any nerf big enough to warrant "on demand"-designs for final builds would be so harsh to the early game it would be almost impossible to get started with that first quarry/machine shop. Some other mechanic would be required for that. (Like, say, exploding conductive pipes, or boilers/engines not accepting fuel through pipes...)
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It's a meaningless nerf that won't change anyone's play style, if Solid + charcoal is your go to its still going to be your go to. The thought that just because they made a Charcoal; a infinitely renewable, easily mass-producable fuel worth only half as much heat would suddenly gives it some sort of scarcity or cause rationing is halarious. You don't even need to use mods to mass produce charcoal, add in a few and it becomes so trivial that believing you could balance against it is like believing you could turn back the tide or keep the sun from rising.
This provides a great explanation of where idle power draw, perdition, and network loss is going, but I'm having a difficult time relating this to the recent 4x liquid fuel nerf and the 2x solid fuel nerf.
If there was somehow a counterbalancing fuel efficiency gain accomplished by improved or more difficult technology, I'd understand the change, but as it stands, I just have to either:
A) Switch from charcoal to planks
B) If using oil, move pumps 4x as often
C) If using ethanol, increase production 4x or breed better trees
D) Not use boilers at all
I hope the above options are not your intent. RailCraft and BuildCraft are both staple mods and great mods at that !
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