I love GT, as it makes IC2 harder, and he Gregory did say that it was a IC2 add-on, but now, it's not just an IC2 addon.... ANYWAY! Going to the matter at hand, what Gregtech did was bad, and I'm proud of mDiyo for standing up against him. Changing Vanilla recipes make's the game a mod, not an add-on. I hate people like him, although I like the FTB. I'm not simply gonna remove a mod just because I dislike it, then it wouldn't be as the creators visioned it, although I might add mods to best fit my style. I usually keep to myself, so I have to agree with what Fakehate and BobertThe3rd said. Infact, I'm gonna add TC now, and learn it and play it along side Thaumcraft. I just wish EE2 were in it though.... AND NO! Not for how OP it was, but how fun it was. I would still go out and venture into the deep dark caves with nothing but leather amour!
Greg Tech opinion discussions go here
- Thread starter Jadedcat
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In my opinion, Greg tries to force people to play like He thinks it's right. That's not good.
I like the new content Gregtech offers to the game, like the fusion reactor. it's a challenge to build it.
I DON't like how gregtech messes with other mods' recipes.
I don't like complexity for the sake of complexity. If vanilla offers a simple recipe for a iron hammer, i don't want to be forced to first produce a hammer head and a handle that I then combine to a hammer.
It is the player's (or the server admin's) decision what mods are added and therefore what content is added to the game, NOT Greg's.
I like the new content Gregtech offers to the game, like the fusion reactor. it's a challenge to build it.
I DON't like how gregtech messes with other mods' recipes.
I don't like complexity for the sake of complexity. If vanilla offers a simple recipe for a iron hammer, i don't want to be forced to first produce a hammer head and a handle that I then combine to a hammer.
It is the player's (or the server admin's) decision what mods are added and therefore what content is added to the game, NOT Greg's.
Actually code that steals private information would be considered Spyware, which is a subcategory of Malware.
Malware is any code that maliciously effects a computer system, including causing crashes, data corruption, spyware, adware, trojan horses, you name it, if it is foul and on your computer, it is malware, except maybe last week's meatloaf, though your computer is probably not something it should be on.
Slowpoke is trying to take the diplomatic approach out of this mess. Hence the redefining of words. Causing a program to crash with intent and then distributing it in mass is absolutely malware. But telling someone their code is malware and then trying to keep their mod in the pack ... is something that most people cannot pull off. Hence why slowpoke is going out of his way to say it isn't malware. This is also why he is going out of his way to make everyone else say it isn't malware, especially given GregoriousT's "unhinged" temperament, he may start pursuing vendettas against the user-base next, or more likely, the more people know it is malware, the less people are going to want it, and the more people are going to clamor for its removal. Why he is trying to keep it in the pack is beyond me, other than that removing it would cause many FTB users to have to reset their servers and single player worlds, which may cause some dissent. I personally would say it would be worth it to take a hard line stance against malware distributors, but this is all Slowpoke's call given that it is his modpack. Though personally I am going to have to make a decision if slowpoke decides to remain chummy with GregoriousT. Risking my personal computer with malware distributors is not something I take lightly. Sure it only broke Minecraft this time, but what's next? If Gregorious and his ilk are given the green light to add whatever malicious code to their mods they want ... anything could be downloaded to your computer simply be accepting an update from FTB. This is truly what can and will destroy an entire modding community, is allowing the malicious coders a free pass. And I personally would rather get out of it before it brings my computer down with it. I'll stick with a GregoriousT free FTB pack for now (even if I have to pry it off the modpack myself), but one more incident like this and FTB will be in my rear-view mirror for good.
I hate to be the pedant, but the scenario precisely fits the definition accepted within the security community. Disclaimer: CISSP, etc. (I do this stuff for a living.)
You are correct that it is has implications to security, but you are missing the part where causing the availability of a system or application to cease is a violation of security. Availability is the third pillar.
A good definition is provided by the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST), in Special Publcation 800-83.
"Malware, also known as malicious code and malicious software, refers to a program that is inserted into a system, usually covertly, with the intent of compromising the confidentiality, integrity, or availability of the victim's data, applications, or operating system or otherwise annoying or disrupting the victim."
Haven't you heard? HR Departments across the nation ARE being replaced by robots ... and they can't tell a genius from a pile of dung, the only thing they can determine is if you can fill out their application to their satisfaction, including personality quizzes which aren't really quizzes but loaded questions where you have to figure out what they really want you to answer. Apparently some HR guru keeps berating these companies employing these application bots, because they won't even get him to the interview stage, and he's the guy they are paying millions of dollars to sort out their HR system XD.
I like the "or otherwise annoying or disrupting the victim." part, if nothing else, this definitely falls into that category.
By stating that he doesn't care if his mod is included in a modpack, he is also saying that he doesn't care if players use it, and therefore that he doesn't care about the players themselves, and in this way he is completely undermining us, by saying that he doesn't care if we like it, the only thing that matters is if he likes it.
I truly dislike playing devils advocate, and hence have to assert my position before I continue.. what GT did was wrong. However in response to you; Most software developers with time invested in software where you don't know exactly the target platform knows that you should have an initialisation sequence, graceful error traps and termination sequences, to handle memory allocation and hardware/software interactions hooks etc. Therefore if an abnormal condition is found. it is correct to shut-down. Relating this to a modable game. If any mod found a problem during initialization and shut down to prevent further issues, consequently causing the main application to terminate and generate logs, this scenario which is a close parallel would be viewed in a very different and positive light if the 'error condition' was legitimate. I believe firmly that GT had no mal intent against a users computer, privacy, system availability or security. Regarding system availability. The system in question was never available in the version implementation we are discussing. Further someone who is building their own pack would be a fool to throw every mod into forge in one go and then have to figure out which ones are not working together, it's a slow careful process - that is if you view stability as a virtue. Which leads me to be clear with my point. We need to address what has happened very precisely, it was a childish retaliation that has not harmed an end user at this point. If anything it has brought about discussion in the open to issues that have been brewing for a long time. you'd know that if you looked at the server.log file. (re-te)
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Maybe I was too subtle in my efforts to underline human nature without saying something that could be misinterpreted as an accusation. Because as much bias and anger is floating around on both sides right now, I really think the results of any vote would be suspect.
I agree the issue is a serious one, but I personally believe this problem will resolve itself in a month or two. New rules are in place because a line was crossed, but are not retroactively enforced - probably due to how difficult it is to retroactively enforce ANY rule and be fair. Take solace in the idea that "This has happened more than once, so it will happen again" and the rules will be enforced at a later date.
Sometimes, you just have to be patient.
If you want to make your voice heard in the meanwhile, gameplay metrics are ten times more valuable than a popular vote. Pick out only mod packs with mods that you support. (or put another way - vote with your feet. I did as soon as 152ngt was available.)
Sure, I agree with you. As I've said elsewhere, the choice for me to remove it is simplified by my background. People who know that Greg wasn't really out to harm them can fairly easily give him a pass and continue enjoying his content.
This is why I'm not raising hell in Slow's thread about the vernacular - the spirit of his explanation and the solution is quite fair, and it's rather obvious if something like this were to occur in the future that the direction would be a bit different.
I'm only trying to set the record straight on what malware actually is, because people are a bit confused and my teeth were starting to itch. On the scale of "meh" to "holy shit" on the malware scale, Greg scores about a -7, and the reaction is appropriate.
Okay then lets take this to a more realistic situation, lets say I want to play a Windows game (a game that I pay for, has been out for years, thoroughly debugged, etc), but I owned a mac computer (*hack* *cough* I think I nearly died uttering that statement). So I go about providing a windows compatible simulated environment in the mac OS (which you can do), from the game's point of view it should have absolutely everything it needs and in the right format. But lets say on initialization the game checked computer for its OS Version, and found it wasn't running on a windows computer and aborted the start up, closed with an error log, but gave absolutely no option to continue startup anyways? Most of us would call that malicious, a forced incompatibility. Sure they definitely shouldn't have to support the game on a ported system, but preventing it from running entirely would be considered malware. (A practice, which unfortunately many companies do practice *ahem* Apple *Cough Hack Wheeze* Microsoft ... I may have a cold coming on) We have just gotten so used to this sort of proprietary programming practice (there's alliteration for you) that we have forgotten that it really is malware, as according to the definition it compromises the availability of the program and it is also annoying.
Also in case it wasn't clear, I never have owned and never will own a mac ... windows games are nearly as bad.
Also in case it wasn't clear, I never have owned and never will own a mac ... windows games are nearly as bad.
If I had to endure life in corporate hell id hurl myself into the nearest bucket of lava... Those personality questions are relatively easy to answer, but you feel unclean knowing that to give them what they want to hear you have to be dishonest. But that essentially flies with the whole corporate environment. Full of egotistical spiteful people who lie, steal and back stab you as much as flash a fake smile and a welcome intended purely to advance their own agenda... lol that made me think of something else to write.. but . ... must .. bite... my... tongue.
One term for this is "Platform Whitelisting" and it is exceptionally commonplace in corporate applications and most web apps. I have several pieces of major brandname software that literally won't run because their authors can't be bothered to update the installer with a list of current versions of windows/IE/Firefox/Chrome.
So that analogy sort of falls apart given that pretty much every IT person should expect to encounter that on a frequent basis in the course of their job.
In context: Bad, shameful, unprofessional, childish, antisocial, sociopathic, egotistical, disrespectful, closed-minded, near-sighted and selfish - Yes.
Malware: Not even close. The init issue doesn't 'do' anything but prevent a game starting that never actually was a running system in the realm of updating a selection of mods.
Well now you are getting into licensing which was never a concept I liked. "I made this code, I own this code, you payed thousands of dollars for his code, but you are only allowed to use this code on my whim. Because it isn't yours." The sooner computers and code become utilitarian the better, we are heading down a very, very dark path otherwise. The only thing keeping them from being declared utilitarian right now is lobbyists from the big companies, as computer systems are becoming nearly as necessary as vehicles (and those were declared utilitarian ages ago)
I think this whole argument can be summed up with this one quote from Chrissy at the beginning of the discussion: Greg "broke a window and blamed the person who put the window there".
If you're a developer and work for a corporation, you have the power to change this... quit, or find a corp that dances with the licensing devil through necessity to survive only, but otherwise contributes by adopting fair licensing from which revenue can still be made. - still biting that tongue .. was about to sate an example but a) way off topic, and b) I'd be flamed by those without a thorough understanding of that company.
~rh.[DOUBLEPOST=1374315501][/DOUBLEPOST]
I like that quote
somewhat like when GT blamed chunk loaders for the fact that his mod crashes the game when you interact with his machines before their textures have properly loaded. Funny how all other non GT machinery and blocks continue to load textures and don't crash.Greg Tech opinion discussions go here
Read, if that really is the argument of less than a 4th grader I'll eat my hat (and since it hasn't arrived in the mail yet, that would be quite some feat) This isn't about hating or loving GregTech, this is about certain actions that GregoriousT took without consideration for the community.
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