Greg Tech opinion discussions go here
- Thread starter Jadedcat
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Why did you include all those mods that make the game easy?
Applied Energistics - Super easy storage
Buildcraft - Any mod that has a GT changed recipe is clearly Too Easy(tm)
DimensionalDoors - Super easy dungeon loot
EnderStorage - Teleporting items back to your base? It's so easy!
Factorization - Routers make things too easy
Forestry - ...any mod that has a GT changed recipe is clearly Too Easy
InventoryTweaks - Sorting your inventory makes things Too Easy
IronChest - Placing some ingots around a chest doesn't increase the space inside it. That's unrealistic! (and Too Easy)
MineFactoryReloaded - Wow, just totally over the top of the easy charts! Lightning fast resource farms, mob spawners giving loot, etc.
ModularPowerSuits - Bathing in lava has got to be Too Easy
Mystcraft - Dense Ores is an Exploit! (and Too Easy)
RailCraft - Steel is Too Easy! Besides, Greg has a steam producer now, so that boiler is just gonna have to be declared Too Easy soon.
StevesCarts - Automatic farms are Too Easy
ThermalExpansion - Pulverizing ores is Too Easy
TwilightForest - Hollow Hills are such a Too Easy way to get resources!
VoxelMap - Being able to see maps is Too Easy
oh almost forgot!
IndustralCraft2 - Any mod that has a GT changed recipe is clearly Too Easy
From what i've heard the mods in that pack have specific gregtech configs that increase difficulty in line with GT.
I've taken that into account. When the bar is set where "1 wood = 4 planks" is Too Easy, then not very much actually isn't.
My biggest problem with GregTech itself is its creative laziness. Compounding tedium upon grinding upon an "I need ALL the iridiums!"-mentality, then wrapping it all up in an eight-level Russian Nesting Doll of a crafting recipe involving a Machine Casing multiblock pretty much describes 80% of what GregTech has to offer. Sure, it adds to the difficulty, but the same could be said of repeatedly slamming my head into a wall.
Really, of all the games to take the low road with creativity, doing it while surrounded by Minecraft's nigh-infinite trove of possibilities is tragic. Sometimes Greg is like that guy in the Twilight Zone who finally found his paradise, a peaceful world filled with books and the time to read them... but he broke his glasses, and can't read any words other than "Iridium" and "Machine Casings". I want to play with GregTech, but I don't want every game of Minecraft have to revolve around a Matter Fabricator (another infernal nesting-doll crafting recipe). I've literally stalled out in my SSP beta gameplay right now, because I just can't bring myself to build that stupid machine one more time, and everything I want to build requires Iridium.
If I could bend reality to my will with a thought (oh, those were the days... wait, forget I said that), I would make Greg best friends with someone like Azanor (of ThaumCraft). Azanor is a creative powerhouse, and my go-to example of someone who balances things with fun and finesse, which Greg could really use. ThaumCraft is actually a fairly underpowered mod, relative to FTB alternatives, but somehow it doesn't really feel that way, because Azanor is that good at keeping things fun and finding little niches to do things that no other mod can.
I want to see Greg introduce things like, say, a "clean room" that has to be built out of special blocks in The End near an Enderoid, with a decontamination airlock entrance and a power requirement, then eschew all his tedious grinds in favor of the need to build key sub-components in there (that's ONE "sub-", Greg!). I could really see myself getting behind GregTech if he went more in this direction. Why use another Machine Casing multiblock if you could instead require something built entirely under a Nether lava ocean, or something that functions only if there are a certain number of Villagers/naturally-spawned Iron Golems in the vicinity? How bout a power source that outputs EU based on the RATE of Wheat/Cane/whatever you can pump into it? Why not something that requires extending manufactured tendrils of whatever material into five separate biomes, 'funneling' their unique energies onto a central point where some technomagical contraption slowly crystallizes? THAT'S how to build a Gravichest, my friends. Why not tap fireworks for innovative applications, or Nether Fortresses/Witch Huts/Strongholds/Pyramids/Temples? Tap the deep ocean. Tap potions, or livestock, or hostiles, or ANYTHING that isn't more Iridium and Machine Casings.
I'm literally just writing stream-of-consciousness stuff off the top of my head now, but I hope I'm at least illustrating one fact that should be painfully obvious: It's really not that hard to be creative in Minecraft, and there's no excuse for a grind in this of all games.
Really, of all the games to take the low road with creativity, doing it while surrounded by Minecraft's nigh-infinite trove of possibilities is tragic. Sometimes Greg is like that guy in the Twilight Zone who finally found his paradise, a peaceful world filled with books and the time to read them... but he broke his glasses, and can't read any words other than "Iridium" and "Machine Casings". I want to play with GregTech, but I don't want every game of Minecraft have to revolve around a Matter Fabricator (another infernal nesting-doll crafting recipe). I've literally stalled out in my SSP beta gameplay right now, because I just can't bring myself to build that stupid machine one more time, and everything I want to build requires Iridium.
If I could bend reality to my will with a thought (oh, those were the days... wait, forget I said that), I would make Greg best friends with someone like Azanor (of ThaumCraft). Azanor is a creative powerhouse, and my go-to example of someone who balances things with fun and finesse, which Greg could really use. ThaumCraft is actually a fairly underpowered mod, relative to FTB alternatives, but somehow it doesn't really feel that way, because Azanor is that good at keeping things fun and finding little niches to do things that no other mod can.
I want to see Greg introduce things like, say, a "clean room" that has to be built out of special blocks in The End near an Enderoid, with a decontamination airlock entrance and a power requirement, then eschew all his tedious grinds in favor of the need to build key sub-components in there (that's ONE "sub-", Greg!). I could really see myself getting behind GregTech if he went more in this direction. Why use another Machine Casing multiblock if you could instead require something built entirely under a Nether lava ocean, or something that functions only if there are a certain number of Villagers/naturally-spawned Iron Golems in the vicinity? How bout a power source that outputs EU based on the RATE of Wheat/Cane/whatever you can pump into it? Why not something that requires extending manufactured tendrils of whatever material into five separate biomes, 'funneling' their unique energies onto a central point where some technomagical contraption slowly crystallizes? THAT'S how to build a Gravichest, my friends. Why not tap fireworks for innovative applications, or Nether Fortresses/Witch Huts/Strongholds/Pyramids/Temples? Tap the deep ocean. Tap potions, or livestock, or hostiles, or ANYTHING that isn't more Iridium and Machine Casings.
I'm literally just writing stream-of-consciousness stuff off the top of my head now, but I hope I'm at least illustrating one fact that should be painfully obvious: It's really not that hard to be creative in Minecraft, and there's no excuse for a grind in this of all games.
I will finally present my view on GregTech (and I have been on these forums for almost 7 months and never told it)
I love GregTech's machines and what it adds to IC2, I also don't mind most of the nerfs he adds. However, I do not like his most recent policy which I am sure no-one needs a recap of.
One of the most common gripes I hear is that GregTech makes the game last too long, it makes it too hard and most of what it adds is unnecessary. Well I agree with all of that but I see it in a good way. I hate it when I can get to late game with all my machines and everything within a week or two... I need to be challenged and I need something that slows me down and to be totally honest thats what GregTech does. GregTech is a perfect example of a mod that achieves what it aims to do.
In fact right now I was thinking of developing a mod that is all about nerfing, of course no one else has to play it but it will be available (in most likely 3 or 4 months). This mod will also most likely be incompatible with most other mods since I will be changing a lot of vanilla aspects.
I love GregTech's machines and what it adds to IC2, I also don't mind most of the nerfs he adds. However, I do not like his most recent policy which I am sure no-one needs a recap of.
One of the most common gripes I hear is that GregTech makes the game last too long, it makes it too hard and most of what it adds is unnecessary. Well I agree with all of that but I see it in a good way. I hate it when I can get to late game with all my machines and everything within a week or two... I need to be challenged and I need something that slows me down and to be totally honest thats what GregTech does. GregTech is a perfect example of a mod that achieves what it aims to do.
In fact right now I was thinking of developing a mod that is all about nerfing, of course no one else has to play it but it will be available (in most likely 3 or 4 months). This mod will also most likely be incompatible with most other mods since I will be changing a lot of vanilla aspects.
Okay okay let me clear this up now. GREG is the one that picked these mods, I just built it and tested it, and if you have any questions about why a mod was or wasn't chosen go ask him.
Wait, what mods? What's "it?" Sorry, at the pace this thread is moving we need constant context updates
Wait, what mods? What's "it?" Sorry, at the pace this thread is moving we need constant context updates
#1 every mod in the pack #2 the Unhinged pack folks (read between the lines a little really?) and #3 obviously at this point I'm tempted to put this on basic cable as a comedy show x3
So i guess FTB approves of modder drama.... *sighs*...This place is gonna end up like the modpack that shall not be named XD. Seriously though Greg puts a crash in the game on purpose, then uses his apparent Catchline to get out of it "It has a config"......I kinda enjoyed gregtech but honestly i just dont trust someone who would put code in just to crash the game, makes me question the sanity of the person (i mean really UnHinged makes him sound like a madman to me and i heartily agree with the name, it fits almost too well)
yeah yeah we know why its called Unhinged, but again no comment for fear "oh you get the idea"..
I'm sorry, I'm on a widescreen monitor and there was only one line. But I shrunk my window enough, and BAM! There it was.
Here is my two cents on the matter. I never really enjoyed GregTech, most of what it did was make things more difficult, much like those games were you end up dying every 10 steps, and after the 100th death, or in this case after the 100th machine built to build another machine which used to be beginning-mid game, I just get bored, there is not fun anymore just tedium, tedium isn't challenge, it never has been and never will be. In those games where you die every 10 steps, you always die the first time you encounter a challenge, no matter how skilled you are, but through a brute force method of trial and error you eventually learn the precise and only method of passing a certain point in the game without dying. That is exactly what GregTech is, pointless tedium which forces you to do everything his way, no fringe area for creativity, just pointless tedium. Sure there are some great machines you can makes after a few thousand hours of playing, which I still haven't used, and so haven't gotten to enjoy the actual GregTech mod, I've only experienced all his tweaks to other mods. That being said, he did have every right to mod the game in any way he saw fit including the modifying of other mods. My main gripe with GregTech was that FTB left the default config settings enabled, forcing most multiplayer FTB players to be stuck with the more difficult GregTech recipes, I also had a gripe with FTB using Thermal Expansion for ore generation and not changing the configs to produce a decent amount of ore, but that is entirely another matter. In any case, I was entirely fine to continue playing FTB, despite its flaws, at least until I saw this entire debacle unfold on the forums.
So apparently Tinkerer's Construct and Greg Tech both made modifications that enhance their own mods personally, which is good for them, and good for us, but interaction between the mods created what many have termed an "exploit", even though there is no such a thing as an exploit or overpowered feature in a sandbox game. This might get filed into the category of bug, since neither of the modders intended for it to happen. In my own personal opinion, it should be up to whomever has a problem with the bug to fix it as, like I said, this is a Sandbox game and there is no such thing as an exploit or overpowered feature. If one of the modders doesn't see a problem with the "exploit" then there is no reason for them to change it. In this case the responsibility fell on Gregtech since he was the one with the issue, but instead GregTech throws a hissy fit like a little girl and completely disables the other modder's feature. I admit that it would be a lot harder to fix from his end, but that could have been resolved with mature conversation with the other modder to work out a resolution that didn't force either of them to remove their feature, but prevented the bug. That right there is bad behavior, and should've been indication for everyone to abandon ship. I mean who sails on a temperamental boat right? Okay enough with the metaphors, the point is this matter was settled, but there was still bad blood between the two modders.
What happens next is Gregtech advances his vendetta against casual to moderate gamers by nerfing the MOST basic recipe of the entire game, wood. Which is his right, if I don't like it, I don't have to install it ... but other people liked portions of GregTech and hated that particular nerf, thus Tinkerer's Construct changed the recipe back as there was no config option. (and there really should've been when messing with vanilla recipes). This spark's their little lover's quarrel which all of us got caught in the fallout of: GregTech modifying the game such that it crashes when Tinkerer's Construct is installed. This is boldfaced MALWARE, a programming sin, and even the most stalwart GregTech defenders cannot dispute this fact, though they have apparently tried to by claiming that the crash is not a crash at all, it is a gracefully handled exception, which I say balls to. As a programmer myself, I can easily say that any exception, handled, unhandled, or otherwise, that causes the program to close unexpectedly (from the user's point of view, not the modder's) is a crash.
For those of you who don't know what an exception is, it is actually code generated by the programmers themselves to catch erroneous behavior. For example, if I have a grid of data, I will often program an exception to occur if the program (or user) tries to pull data from outside the grid boundaries, I can then either choose to catch the exception and handle it my way, or let the program calling on my program handle the exception, which often results in the OS itself handling the exception which has only one method of handling the exception and that is to close the program. If I choose to handle it my way, I can still be lazy and cause the program to close, though in some extreme cases the only way to handle the exception is to close the program. In almost all cases Exceptions are programmer defined, so if I knew the program would have a facial recognition software input I could cause the program to crash if the user had red hair, and everyone would agree with me, that would be an abuse of my power as a programmer. This is essentially what Gregtech did, it detected that Tinkerer's Construct was installed, threw an exception, and aborted the program. A very immature and lazy way to handle the problem at hand. He could have had a conversation with the other modder, he could've changed the recipe back to his version (which would've been immature and solved nothing), he could've (and this would be the best way to handle the problem) called on an outside party to resolve their dispute for them. He chose instead to harm the very community that supports him and distribute malware.
Though this last little bit is hearsay, if true, it really underlines the type of person the author of GregTech is and what kind of future behavior we can expect from him. That is that Gregtech was modified to scan for the username of the author of the Tinkerer's Construct mod and, if found, replace his helm with a pumpkin, and looped this programming code so that it was executed every tick. Very immature, but again, hearsay. So just going on what we know: GregTech crashes (or rather crashed, though that it happened at all is in very bad taste) Minecraft with Tinker's Construct installed, I think FTB should officially stop supporting this modder. We the users need to stop tolerating this kind of behavior from modders. The ultimate sin of programming is distributing Malware which Gregtech has unabashedly done. And what happens? we give the guy his own modpack? Seriously?! I can see giving the guy a second chance by allowing people to continue downloading it as an optional part of a larger modpack. But actually giving him his own modpack so he can throw his little child tantrums and get whatever he wants? I don't think so. Malware distributors in the modding community should be shunned by the modding community. Giving Gregtech his own modpack is only telling everyone out there that we are okay with malware on our computers, for right now it is limited to crashed minecraft clients, but it could easily expand into spyware, which is a much more serious issue.
In conclusion, though neither mod author showed very much maturity in the events that have transpired, GregTech committed the ultimate sin in programming, and should be forced to wear the metaphorical pumpkin of shame, not the virtual one he forced the Tinkerer's Construct author to wear, but by us as a community pulling the plug on his mod by refusing to download it.
Also, sorry for the poor grammar, run-on sentences, and uber long paragraphs, I tend to forget these things in the face of extreme stupidity (which is ironic, I know) and apologies to the author of Tinker's Construct, whose username I couldn't remember the exact spelling of. And finally apologies to the moderators of this forum for stepping on their rules here and there a little, but I could not see any other way to bring attention to the gravity of the situation. *awaits impending ban hammer and trolls*
So apparently Tinkerer's Construct and Greg Tech both made modifications that enhance their own mods personally, which is good for them, and good for us, but interaction between the mods created what many have termed an "exploit", even though there is no such a thing as an exploit or overpowered feature in a sandbox game. This might get filed into the category of bug, since neither of the modders intended for it to happen. In my own personal opinion, it should be up to whomever has a problem with the bug to fix it as, like I said, this is a Sandbox game and there is no such thing as an exploit or overpowered feature. If one of the modders doesn't see a problem with the "exploit" then there is no reason for them to change it. In this case the responsibility fell on Gregtech since he was the one with the issue, but instead GregTech throws a hissy fit like a little girl and completely disables the other modder's feature. I admit that it would be a lot harder to fix from his end, but that could have been resolved with mature conversation with the other modder to work out a resolution that didn't force either of them to remove their feature, but prevented the bug. That right there is bad behavior, and should've been indication for everyone to abandon ship. I mean who sails on a temperamental boat right? Okay enough with the metaphors, the point is this matter was settled, but there was still bad blood between the two modders.
What happens next is Gregtech advances his vendetta against casual to moderate gamers by nerfing the MOST basic recipe of the entire game, wood. Which is his right, if I don't like it, I don't have to install it ... but other people liked portions of GregTech and hated that particular nerf, thus Tinkerer's Construct changed the recipe back as there was no config option. (and there really should've been when messing with vanilla recipes). This spark's their little lover's quarrel which all of us got caught in the fallout of: GregTech modifying the game such that it crashes when Tinkerer's Construct is installed. This is boldfaced MALWARE, a programming sin, and even the most stalwart GregTech defenders cannot dispute this fact, though they have apparently tried to by claiming that the crash is not a crash at all, it is a gracefully handled exception, which I say balls to. As a programmer myself, I can easily say that any exception, handled, unhandled, or otherwise, that causes the program to close unexpectedly (from the user's point of view, not the modder's) is a crash.
For those of you who don't know what an exception is, it is actually code generated by the programmers themselves to catch erroneous behavior. For example, if I have a grid of data, I will often program an exception to occur if the program (or user) tries to pull data from outside the grid boundaries, I can then either choose to catch the exception and handle it my way, or let the program calling on my program handle the exception, which often results in the OS itself handling the exception which has only one method of handling the exception and that is to close the program. If I choose to handle it my way, I can still be lazy and cause the program to close, though in some extreme cases the only way to handle the exception is to close the program. In almost all cases Exceptions are programmer defined, so if I knew the program would have a facial recognition software input I could cause the program to crash if the user had red hair, and everyone would agree with me, that would be an abuse of my power as a programmer. This is essentially what Gregtech did, it detected that Tinkerer's Construct was installed, threw an exception, and aborted the program. A very immature and lazy way to handle the problem at hand. He could have had a conversation with the other modder, he could've changed the recipe back to his version (which would've been immature and solved nothing), he could've (and this would be the best way to handle the problem) called on an outside party to resolve their dispute for them. He chose instead to harm the very community that supports him and distribute malware.
Though this last little bit is hearsay, if true, it really underlines the type of person the author of GregTech is and what kind of future behavior we can expect from him. That is that Gregtech was modified to scan for the username of the author of the Tinkerer's Construct mod and, if found, replace his helm with a pumpkin, and looped this programming code so that it was executed every tick. Very immature, but again, hearsay. So just going on what we know: GregTech crashes (or rather crashed, though that it happened at all is in very bad taste) Minecraft with Tinker's Construct installed, I think FTB should officially stop supporting this modder. We the users need to stop tolerating this kind of behavior from modders. The ultimate sin of programming is distributing Malware which Gregtech has unabashedly done. And what happens? we give the guy his own modpack? Seriously?! I can see giving the guy a second chance by allowing people to continue downloading it as an optional part of a larger modpack. But actually giving him his own modpack so he can throw his little child tantrums and get whatever he wants? I don't think so. Malware distributors in the modding community should be shunned by the modding community. Giving Gregtech his own modpack is only telling everyone out there that we are okay with malware on our computers, for right now it is limited to crashed minecraft clients, but it could easily expand into spyware, which is a much more serious issue.
In conclusion, though neither mod author showed very much maturity in the events that have transpired, GregTech committed the ultimate sin in programming, and should be forced to wear the metaphorical pumpkin of shame, not the virtual one he forced the Tinkerer's Construct author to wear, but by us as a community pulling the plug on his mod by refusing to download it.
Also, sorry for the poor grammar, run-on sentences, and uber long paragraphs, I tend to forget these things in the face of extreme stupidity (which is ironic, I know) and apologies to the author of Tinker's Construct, whose username I couldn't remember the exact spelling of. And finally apologies to the moderators of this forum for stepping on their rules here and there a little, but I could not see any other way to bring attention to the gravity of the situation. *awaits impending ban hammer and trolls*
Apple Pie: My pie is superior and all pies shall be in my image.
Pumpkin Pie: You just dicked up all the pies. Ima' bake them back the way they were.
FTB: There, there now. We can all benefit. *bakbebakebake* FREE PIE EVERYONE
End User: Yo fuck these pies. Where are the nuts? Why the hell are there so many pies? I hate pie! /eats all the pies
Pumpkin Pie: You just dicked up all the pies. Ima' bake them back the way they were.
FTB: There, there now. We can all benefit. *bakbebakebake* FREE PIE EVERYONE
End User: Yo fuck these pies. Where are the nuts? Why the hell are there so many pies? I hate pie! /eats all the pies
This is actually a fair point that should be (delicately) discussed, if only to help the FTB team figure out exactly what to do here (and, from what I know of the people behind FTB, they're smartly delaying any public response until they have a much clearer understanding of the situation than we do right now, and have discussed and considered their options---it's a little premature to assume they've chosen silence. I'm sure they're also very unhappy, more than a little uncomfortable, and probably not having their best day ever. FTB, our thoughts are with you).
On one hand, assembling a modpack like this will, at times, require a bit of dancing and diplomacy, with a healthy side of politics. And we'd be wrong to fault them for it. It's simply the nature of the beast (heh, I'm so very clever). Their response could well be a quiet talk with Greg behind closed doors that might resemble silence, if, after taking all the factors into account, they think that's the best thing to do for FTB. I don't think that's what will happen, but we're a bit like the blind men and the elephant, lacking the full picture. For example, they have to consider the significant fraction of players who simply don't care, don't follow, or don't know about all this drama, and who would be taken by unpleasant surprise if some of the more drastic responses we could conceive of were acted upon.
On the other hand, though... the offense here is rather serious, and let's make no illusions about it, the offense was committed not against mDiyo but against FTB---the FTB Team and the FTB community. Moreover, it's made worse by Greg's statements that imply he sees nothing wrong with what he did, and may well do it again. So I don't think this is something the FTB team should stay silent on. You've demonstrated one reason rather aptly: to some extent, silence would imply condonation to many, or at the very least an unwillingness to speak out in defense of the FTB community---the only real "victims" in this whole affair, and of any similar affairs that might happen in the future.
That's why, in my humble and respectfully-tendered opinion, I think a strong, clear, and public denunciation of malicious coding practices is both necessary and warranted. Nothing more than that---but nothing less, either. I don't think there's a person in this thread who will argue that malicious coding shouldn't be strongly condemned. On the political side of things, it's not as if such a condemnation is going to be perceived as an unfair, disproportionate or unjustified response; quite the opposite, I'd say. Do they need to name Greg specifically? No, it's more diplomatic if they don't, and everyone who's in the know, will know.
Again, though, I emphasize: Politics, diplomacy, and us with our incomplete picture of events. Theirs is not a job I envy, and I've come to respect the people behind FTB enough to assume that however they do choose to respond, they're doing so in good faith for what they believe are the best reasons.
The giant wall of text from bobert hurts to read but does make a good point. A crash, intentional or not, is bad. Better solution and more inline with Greg's original type of balance would have been to make planks need to be fed through one of his various machines making processed planks, which could use any number of vanilla planks he chooses, and both sides could have been happy.
Now this logic is from the stand point of both mods have their own places and suit different playstyles but as with everything you can't make everyone happy. Now before I ramble too much leave you with this both authors behaved badly and it does not matter who shot first or who brought a nuke to a slap fight it boils down to the fact that both were in the wrong and should have conducted themselves in a more professional manner due to the fact that they are both public figures and as such are under constant scrutiny. Take what you will from this and let the authors bury the hatchet, preferably not in each others necks./
Now this logic is from the stand point of both mods have their own places and suit different playstyles but as with everything you can't make everyone happy. Now before I ramble too much leave you with this both authors behaved badly and it does not matter who shot first or who brought a nuke to a slap fight it boils down to the fact that both were in the wrong and should have conducted themselves in a more professional manner due to the fact that they are both public figures and as such are under constant scrutiny. Take what you will from this and let the authors bury the hatchet, preferably not in each others necks./
Yeah sorry about that, should've put in a disclaimer that I am fabled for my giant walls of text
.I disagree with your moral equivocation. One does not punish a slap in the face by burning down someone else's village. Spreading malicious code is the complete abdication of any moral ground, high or low, full stop.
Yeah sorry about that, should've put in a disclaimer that I am fabled for my giant walls of text
I'm sorry, sir, that's MY throne you're so clumsily usurping -- honestly, I spend more time cutting my posts down from the ten-page dissertations they start out as, than I actually do writing them
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