Redpower going the way of Nandonalt's Mods?

[Enigmius1]

But maybe I should listen to you. If I understand you right, I should just ignore Eloraam's license, fix the bugs, and re-release it from my server?

No, I'd be in favor of disabling it from your server if it's such a nightmare for you and leaving it disabled unless and until a fix is issued that resolves things to your satisfaction. You didn't pay for it, you lose nothing by disabling it. You can't have your cake and eat it too. It's in such awful shape that you need to start nitpicking legalities over licensing, in which case you're probably better off not using it, or it works well enough for you to be able to enjoy it in which case the witch hunt can stop any time now.

I appreciate that in North America, and in particular the United States, it's a sad a tragic cultural phenomenon any time a person feels wronged to immediately look to the law to bail them out. Spill coffee on your nether bits while driving? Sue the restaurant that sold it for the resulting scar tissue on the ol' johnson. It was clearly their fault. Got fat kids? Sue the same restaurant. Pissed off that it's social convention to respect the work of other software devs? Jam your head up a lawyer's arse and listen in for a while until you come up with an excuse to be a legal critic of their entitlement to protection under licensing and copyright "laws". 'Round here, we do things the LAW way. LAW, y'hear?

LAW!

Why is stealing bad? Because it's against the LAW! If there was no LAW written to say it's bad, it would be fine. The LAW tells us that it's bad. You get your head too close to your favorite lawyer's small intestine and all of a sudden you forget why there are laws in the first place. All you know is your amateur interpretation of the contract and the LAW with LEGAL and stuff. LAW!

Or you could just be a sensible grown up and say that license or no license, she wrote the mod and has made it clear that she will grant no permission for others to modify it and that's all you need to know and all you need to say. And as a sensible grown up, you respect her wishes regarding the fruits of her labors and it suddenly beccomes a non-issue. And in approaching it that way, you avoid the mirthful rolling of eyes directed at you for having the backwards sensibility to play lawyer on an internet forum.

 

[bwillb]

But Noooo! One more punch on my card and you owe me a free coffee! This Enigmus1 loyalty card is WORTHLESS now.



For you, software licenses are just a thing jimmies can be rustled over. For me, they're sort of how I support my family. Forgive me for understanding more about them than the average kid. It's not like I'm accusing you of having never read Neuromancer or anything.

But maybe I should listen to you. If I understand you right, I should just ignore Eloraam's license, fix the bugs, and re-release it from my server?

Honestly, the whole Minecraft modding scene needs a bit of a system shock. I think something that would do untold amounts of good for everyone involved except for those few who try to abuse the system would be to have Mojang require that your mod is under something similar to the GPL. You're free to mod Minecraft, so you should be free to mod the mods to Minecraft. Like Enigmius said, it's a free addon to a cheap game. So why lock it down? We all have the same goal, or at least claim to, and that is to improve Minecraft. That can be done so much better if we allow for the free flow of information. And that's what software code is: information. Support freedom.

 

[NightKev]

Honestly, the whole Minecraft modding scene needs a bit of a system shock. I think something that would do untold amounts of good for everyone involved except for those few who try to abuse the system would be to have Mojang require that your mod is under something similar to the GPL. You're free to mod Minecraft, so you should be free to mod the mods to Minecraft. Like Enigmius said, it's a free addon to a cheap game. So why lock it down? We all have the same goal, or at least claim to, and that is to improve Minecraft. That can be done so much better if we allow for the free flow of information. And that's what software code is: information. Support freedom.

Indeed, if they would do (or, even better of course, had done) the same as the KSP devs have (to make a KSP mod, your mod MUST be open source, no exceptions)*, I suspect the community would be a much nicer place. Instead, Mojang let others (such as Curse) "make" the rules (after there being none at all for years), and now things are a mess.

* The full post is here: http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com...les-(Also-docs-and-stuff)-(Updated-4-21-2012)

 

[bwillb]

Indeed, if they would do (or, even better of course, had done) the same as the KSP devs have (to make a KSP mod, your mod MUST be open source, no exceptions)*, I suspect the community would be a much nicer place. Instead, Mojang let others (such as Curse) "make" the rules (after there being none at all for years), and now things are a mess.

* The full post is here: http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com...les-(Also-docs-and-stuff)-(Updated-4-21-2012)

All that really covers is open source for security reasons. It doesn't require a free software licence and, indeed, specifically points out that you can use a license that doesn't allow the free flow of information :\

 

[NightKev]

Yes, but what it does do is encourage the community to be more open by default. The devs of the game have laid down structure, rather than leaving it be a free-for-all where chaos reigns (such as the minecraft community).

 

[Dravarden]

its so funny to see how notch doesn't give a single f**k about his game being pirated or people violating the copyrights, while is his work and he gets money from it, meanwhile a random person from the internet, doing a mod as a hobby, is specting that nobody IN THE WHOLE INTERNET to violate copyright, appreciate the work, not be rude, not to distribute it or decrypt it.

 

[raiju]

its so funny to see how notch doesn't give a single f**k about his game being pirated or people violating the copyrights, while is his work and he gets money from it, meanwhile a random person from the internet, doing a mod as a hobby, is specting that nobody IN THE WHOLE INTERNET to violate copyright, appreciate the work, not be rude, not to distribute it or decrypt it.

Notch made millions off a copycat game that admittedly just got the formula right by some dumb luck. I would never consider buying another game he makes because of who he is, he has no respect to me as a coder or as a developer. He's the Mark Zuckerberg (sp?) of the gaming industry. Mad props to him but I imagine he feels exactly the same when he never imagined minecraft would be as successful as it was. He hit a goldmine while trying to collect rocks.

Eloraam (and a lot of modders) on the otherhand aren't able to quit their jobs to work on their minecraft works. For a start most people will never pay for this content, and the rest of us will pay less than what we paid for minecraft usually unless we have lots of expendable income.

 

[Abdiel]

I am a very practical person. If it ever came to this, and the following conditions were true (note, as of now none of them are):

- Minecraft updates making it incompatible with the current RP2.
- Eloraam is still nowhere to be found, nothing is heard from her for a "reasonable" time after said update.
- I am able to "fix" RP2 by decompiling its code and redistributing the modified version, making no changes to the content, only making it compatible and fixing the most breaking bugs.

I would do it.

Is it legal? Honestly, I am not a lawyer. Laws vary from country to country, it might, it might not. But I very much doubt anybody here would take this to court.

Is it being an ass towards Eloraam for not respecting her wishes? Yes, and I won't deny that. But I would rather be an ass towards one person, who might or might not be paying attention to the "community" at all anymore, than to be an ass to all the people who use and enjoy RP2 for withholding the fix from them if I had one.

Would I get flak from the internet for this? I most certainly would. Honestly I really, really don't care. I'm offering you a piece of software, you and I both are well aware of where it came from, I lay no claims on any of the mod's content, I'm not trying to steal anyone's ideas, I'm just giving you a chance to continue your world. If bashing me on an internet forum in "retribution" for the horrible thing I've done will make you feel better, go right ahead, good for you. I am okay with bearing moral responsibility for an act questionable at worst, if it can help the hundreds or maybe thousands of people who would like to continue using RP2.

 

[ayc]

Redpower Tweaks 3​

 

[DoctorOr]

You know, one of the things about this thread making me grind my teeth is the incredible misuse of the (mostly legal) terms.

Copyright is about distribution. Relevant to this discussion, it only controls who can give you the mod (or Minecraft) itself. The Berne convention largely standardized things worldwide, and you don't need to enforce a copyright, register it, or even acknowledge you have a copyright for a copyright to exist and be enforceable. Length of period is significantly longer than the authors lifespan and so can be considered to be "forever" for this conversation. A copyright owner can freely enforce their copyright in a capricious manner, extending or withdrawing permission and vary their decision making on any reason - or no reason whatsoever - and a copyright can be enforced against a violator who is making no commercial gain whatsoever. But again, copyright is about _distribution_. When an author places a mod up for public download, in a world of automatic downloaders it largely makes the entire issue moot.

Licenses, or "Terms of Service" attempt to control who can use that code after distribution. I say attempt, because they're really quite ineffective with little teeth. Enforcement worldwide is highly variable and can depend on how the license was communicated and even wording. Variable enforcement of the license terms can invalidate the terms in some jurisdictions, while in others it won't. Some jurisdictions require commercial gain for a violation to be enforced, and others do not.

The only consistent effect of a ToS violation is "banning" from continued access to services. This is why ToS for Xbox, MMOGs or similar matter.

One thing to be emphasized: Copyright and ToS are not interchangeable terms, and you kill a kitten every time you use them as if they are.

 

[Dreossk]

Pretty sure no one cares about that.

 

[Dravarden]

I have been playing with immibis's microblocks and I can tell you, they are way more compatible than redpower ones....

 

[Dreossk]

I can't find that in FTB.

 

[DoctorOr]

I can't find that in FTB.

Then they should be, and stop relying on an outdated laggy crashing mod to perform worse.

 

[raiju]

Since when was released 2 months ago out of date?

 

[Dreossk]

Mmh what?

 

[DoctorOr]

Since when was released 2 months ago out of date?

Out of date is not a function of time, but functionality. Many mods updated between 1.2.5 and 1.4.6 with improved or increased functionality. Redpower is for all appearances worse, and is thus outdated.

 

[raiju]

Out of date is not a function of time, but functionality. Many mods updated between 1.2.5 and 1.4.6 with improved or increased functionality. Redpower is for all appearances worse, and is thus outdated.

The bold section is an opinion, or subjective. A lot of other mods have had little/no changes in the last 2 months, and have their own bugs. Why is redpower special? Because it gives more functionality you rely on?

 

[Beppin]

The bold section is an opinion, or subjective. A lot of other mods have had little/no changes in the last 2 months, and have their own bugs. Why is redpower special? Because it gives more functionality you rely on?

Maybe because this discussion topic is about Redpower and not other mods that deserve their own thread?

 

[DoctorOr]

Why is redpower special?

Redpower is special because the critical bugs, lag choking, server crashing bugs are entirely within the mod itself and not centered around intermod issues and problems.

Because it gives more functionality you rely on?

Absolutely not. The only reason I used it at all is because it was part of FTB, and I'm criticizing it based on that.