Why I don't like Barrels, explained in Python

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DaveSW

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Jul 29, 2019
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Barrels are great, but can't replace chests. They function very differently. Same reason why I don't think tubes and pipes couldn't replace each other, they both function differently, and have different pros and cons.

I understand not liking barrels, and I understand wanting barrels to completely replace chests. I don't understand someone thinking that chests are objectively better.
 

Lambert2191

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Jul 29, 2019
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I plan on using barrells to house my "building blocks" i.e. cobble/sand/gravel/stone/bricks/etc/etc
chests will be for everything else (cept coal, coal will be barrelled). Oh, and I used to play on a tekkit server, I had 2.5 diamond chests full of coal, a diamond chest full of iron, a diamond chest full of copper, 2 diamond chests of redstone, 5 chests of scrap...

believe me, that space is needed.
 

AliasXNeo

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Jul 29, 2019
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Your Python example breaks down with Logistic Pipes. That, and as was already said, barrels are for large quantity items only and designing an entire inventory system with only barrels is simply counter-intuitive.
 

Greyed

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Jul 29, 2019
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Although I understand what you're saying TC, I disagree about barrels being the less extensible system. The fact that all of the items are compared locally means you only need to plop down another barrel+tube and the system is expanded. Any other system would require a chest (likely one that exceeds the cost of a barrel by a large amount), a tube/pipe, and additional machinery such a filter, a logistics chassis + modules, or possibly a sorter (due to slot limitations).

Or, as you touched on later, put it into a chest with a polymorphic attached. Which is what I use presently.

Since wood and space are two things most players have in abundance and you rarely stand around waiting for an item to sort (why throw it in the sorter if you need it right now?) the barrel system makes sense in a some cases.

Actually, wood is one of my least abundant of the "nearly infinite" resources. The only one lower is dirt and that is because I need to to make the humus for my tree farm. >.> My second most scarce resource is space. Sure, there's lots of space. Actually securing it, however, is a different matter. Not to mention the further apart things are the more it cuts into everyone's scarce resource, time. ;)

Unlike your example of an array lookup, there are benefits and disadvantages to the various sorting systems. You just need to decide what is most important to you out of space, complexity (build time), resources, sorting speed, and aesthetics. Depending on what is most important in your build, some sorting systems will make sense and some wont.

Exactly my point. I did start out by stating that people always look at me aghast because I don't like barrels. This was my blanket response to those people. Not one that is meant to apply to everyone.

Your Python example breaks down with Logistic Pipes.

Of course it does. The unstated portion of my example is that the array represents Logistics Pipes, which is what I currently use. My comparison was never meant to be anything but what I stated that the beginning, barrels + tubes.



For me, the biggest attraction to barrels, outside of obvious uses like cobble, is the cost. You can make a barrel for a few pieces of wood, which is essentially free once you have a tree farm, as opposed to 8 iron (or whatever) for an upgraded chest.

Trees represent fuel either in the form of scaffolds or charcoal. While they are a renewable resource they are also a highly consumed resource. Unlike most uses for iron which, outside of a set or two of armor and weapons, are rarely removed from the game. There have been plenty of times where I had more iron in my chests than I have had wood. That was without a quarry.

I think your issue is the fact that you're not understanding how pneumatic tubes actually interact with things. Tubes know, before an item is put in them, where all valid inventories for a particular item are and sends the item to the first valid inventory as the item is sent through the tube system.

Actually it is not. What I was talking about was how people are popularly using them, specifically in the context of barrels. How they implement the underlying logic is immaterial when the in-game implementation of barrels+tubes turns them into the physical representation of an if-then. The reason why if-then is slower than an array lookup is because if-thens increase linearly the larger they grow. Arrays do not. Now, look at the barrels+tubes sorting methods that are presented in screenshots and LPs. Even if the tubes are acting as an array and sending the items to where they need to go on the first lookup the physical distance those items must traverse expands almost linearly. They want to add a new item to the sort, they extend at the end of the sort, just like extending the end of an if-then chain. It is the physical distance, not the underlying code, that causes that behavior and to which I was directing my analogy.
 

mzlapq2

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Jul 29, 2019
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My personal take on this is that i love the barrels. Within a few days of starting a new game my chests start filling up and with so many raw materials it can become very annoying keeping track of where everything is. Then boom barrels! Convenient picture and amount right on the front! Of course I only use barrels for raw materials, building materials, and some mob drops. But that covers a couple dozen items that can be easily and quickly located and pulled off the wall. This leaves me with only a few chests typically filled with pipes, wires, machines, bees ect. I don't know how you don't end up with chests full of something or other the first thing i run out of space for is typically redstone and lapis then dirt, gravel, and sand or glass (cobble is scrapped). And even though barrels may require a bit more space I find they save time in locating materials. Ive had LP setups in past worlds but request pipes are a pain in the ass unless your using them for autocrafting.
 

Greyed

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Jul 29, 2019
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run out of space for is typically redstone and lapis then dirt, gravel, and sand or glass (cobble is scrapped).

Redstone is packaged up with carpenters, lapis has never exceeded 3 stacks and that's with me eschewing IC2, dirt is consumed for humus, sand takes up all of 9 slots in my "basic blocks" chect (gold with 6 rows cobble, 2 rows dirt, 1 row sand, and the rest divided for other misc basic blocks) and glass is created as needed so never takes more than a stack.

I've had LP setups in past worlds but request pipes are a pain in the ass unless your using them for autocrafting.

I find them to be a dream, esp. the MkII where you don't need a tool to access it. I was actually a bit miffed that I cannot connect 2 networks into one ala teleport pipes from 1.2.5. I had a remote requester just for that purpose. Explore, find an oil spout, drop down a basic logistics, a teleport pipe, whip out the remote requester and, bam, full access to all my connected chests back home? In 3 items? So worth the cost.
 

SilvasRuin

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Jul 29, 2019
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Your explanation actually worked as intended for me. That made a lot of sense. That said, I'm a visually oriented person, and so my personal preference is to stick with barrels until and unless they add the ability to stick Item Frames on chests*. Even then, I'd still prefer barrels for certain items.


* Come to think of it, I really want that feature. It would be useful even in vanilla, and it would be nice to have a dedicated pipe chest (for example) that visually tells me so at a distance. Crystal Chests are nice, but an Item Frame has more visibility and less jumble.
 

Hydra

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Jul 29, 2019
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Redstone is packaged up with carpenters, lapis has never exceeded 3 stacks and that's with me eschewing IC2, dirt is consumed for humus, sand takes up all of 9 slots in my "basic blocks" chect (gold with 6 rows cobble, 2 rows dirt, 1 row sand, and the rest divided for other misc basic blocks) and glass is created as needed so never takes more than a stack.

Sounds like you don't use quarries. It's pretty much impossible to have 'too little' dirt. And sand can easily be created by macerating cobble. Sand I create 'on demand' (I just toss a bunch of cobble into a pulverizer). Dirt I have about 4 barrels full of. Cobble I have a few barrels full of and the rest is discarded because it can be easily generated anyway.
 

Beleriond01

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Jul 29, 2019
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For me, the biggest attraction to barrels, outside of obvious uses like cobble, is the cost. You can make a barrel for a few pieces of wood, which is essentially free once you have a tree farm, as opposed to 8 iron (or whatever) for an upgraded chest. This makes rooms full of barrels fairly attractive for storage, to say nothing of the handy picture on the front.

@ Greyed, it's not really fair to just casually mention you're using Logistics Pipes, lol. Certainly that's going to be a far superior system to, well, pretty much anything else =)

Is LP actually SMP capable ATM and usable with FTB?
 

ShneekeyTheLost

Too Much Free Time
Dec 8, 2012
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Lost as always
I don't see why a barrel is so much better than, say, a double-chest, which costs half the resources and is only short ten stacks. It can only store a single type of item, and the capacity really isn't all that great. Sure, it has a picture on the face, but you can just put an item frame above the chest if you want.
 

thatsIch

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Jul 29, 2019
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Sounds like you don't use quarries. It's pretty much impossible to have 'too little' dirt. And sand can easily be created by macerating cobble. Sand I create 'on demand' (I just toss a bunch of cobble into a pulverizer). Dirt I have about 4 barrels full of. Cobble I have a few barrels full of and the rest is discarded because it can be easily generated anyway.

as you said,
but everything can be created on demand
you can create infinite cobble
you can create infinite dirt
you can create infinite sand
you can create infinite obsidian
you can even create iridium
you can create infinite tin, copper, gold, iron

the only thing you might need to mine is uranium
there might be other cases too but thats the only one I'm kinda missing in my factory
 

Hydra

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Jul 29, 2019
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as you said,
but everything can be created on demand
you can create infinite cobble
you can create infinite dirt
you can create infinite sand
you can create infinite obsidian
you can even create iridium
you can create infinite tin, copper, gold, iron

Some of these are simple, some of these are more complex. So I 'generate' the stuff that's simply to generate and I need a lot of, the rest I mine. It all boils down to personal preferences anyway. I personally consider some item / energy generation methods 'cheating' so I don't use them.
 

Greyed

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Jul 29, 2019
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Sounds like you don't use quarries. It's pretty much impossible to have 'too little' dirt.

While I would like to set up a quarry the most automated mining I have done is with the IC2 miner because I don't want to mar my landscape. While I have generated Mystcraft ages in the hopes of creating a quarry I have yet to find one I want to mine. By the same token I have really come to like one world I made. Cave, bright, no caves. I can drop to Y12 and do traditional branch mining without having to worry about caves or lighting up the mine. :)

And sand can easily be created by macerating cobble.

D'oh, forgot about that. Thanks for the tip. I'll probably toss my sand into the furnace and replace those slots with cobble filler.

Is LP actually SMP capable ATM and usable with FTB?

SMP? Dunno. SP and usable with FTB, yes. I actually only have used FTB as the base of my world. I've dropped a lot of mods, added a bunch more, moved to 1.4.5, etc. I also use MultiMC to manage my installs. I was able to drop LP directly into my FTB import and have it work without any config changes. In fact the only mod that's given me fits was when I re-enabled Portal Gun and it had 1 ID conflict. However, there is a strong caveat there. Since I have disabled several mods (Factorization, all IC2 addons except the base IC2) the fact that I got no ID conflicts does not mean it will work for everyone. :)
 

Hydra

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Jul 29, 2019
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While I would like to set up a quarry the most automated mining I have done is with the IC2 miner because I don't want to mar my landscape. While I have generated Mystcraft ages in the hopes of creating a quarry I have yet to find one I want to mine. By the same token I have really come to like one world I made. Cave, bright, no caves. I can drop to Y12 and do traditional branch mining without having to worry about caves or lighting up the mine. :)

Ah, that explains. You really start noticing the benefits of barrels when you generate a LOT of something, by for example mining with a quarry. Barrels have a great benefit in that you can store a lot of one item in them, they are very cheap (only wood) and you can store ALL your (f.e.) cobble in your inventory by double-rightclicking on the barrel. Something you can't do with a chest.

But they're mainly useful for storing that kind of stuff. For other stuff like ingorts I use chests with item frames above/below them.

D'oh, forgot about that. Thanks for the tip. I'll probably toss my sand into the furnace and replace those slots with cobble filler.

Welcome :)
 

b0bst3r

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Jul 29, 2019
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Be careful with "bright" mystcraft worlds, although it appears bright, mobs will see it as dark (or they do in the 1.4.2 version) and will spawn in caves and in your tunnels.
 

Greyed

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Jul 29, 2019
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Ah, that explains. You really start noticing the benefits of barrels when you generate a LOT of something, by for example mining with a quarry.

Probably not. Right now my "basic blocks" chest is iron... or diamond... One of the two. And I am cramming in cobble, dirt, sand (not for much longer, thanks again) and a few others. I keep 1k cobble on hand. I have been basically destroying the rest. I don't see running a quarry changing that. I simply don't use that much cobble.

Barrels have a great benefit in that you can store a lot of one item in them,

I get that, which is exactly why I don't like them. I don't ever see myself needing that storage so the limitation of a single item is a huge disadvantage.

you can store ALL your (f.e.) cobble in your inventory by double-rightclicking on the barrel. Something you can't do with a chest.

Sure I can. I do it right now. Forestry introduced different bags, one of which is the digger bag. All the cobble I handle generally goes in there. I put it in my bar, duck-r.click my chest and, hey, all my cobble goes into it. Even better, the chest is my input chest with a quicksort module attached. All that cobble is pulled into my LP system. Any short stacks in my basic blocks gets filled, any extra gets destroyed.

Ok, the spirit is that any item I can just drop into a barrel en masse. Ok, I also have InvTweaks. Cntl-Shift click an item and all similar items are moved into, or out of, the inventory I have open.

Be careful with "bright" mystcraft worlds, although it appears bright, mobs will see it as dark (or they do in the 1.4.2 version) and will spawn in caves and in your tunnels.

Oh, I count on that fact. That is also my "XP/Mob Drop" world. Any time I want to farm zombies, skellies or creepers I go to that world and just don't dig down. Since it is a cave world it is perfectly dark in there at all times, there are no trees for baddies to hide behind and with bright turned on I can always see them a great distance away. It is actually one of the safest places in my current world. The only time I have died there was when I was creeper hunting and didn't put on my batpack. My chainsaw ran out of power after the first hit on a creeper. Since the chainsaw normally kills them in 2 hits I got into the habit of walking up and just whacking them twice, never retreating. Yeah, 1 good whack then I was just tickling him. Even worse, I was up on a ledge about 30-40 blocks above where my book brought me into the world wearing my only jetpack and longfall boots. >.<
 

Yos

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Jul 29, 2019
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Ah I see. You're not a hoarder and you're complaining about stuff made for hoarders. There are people that only use a single chest per raw material, with or without barrels (I am one of these, each chest has a sign on whats in it so that friends can know which is which). You're using code to make yourself sound smart, while using mods that aren't legitimately part of the pack that this forum is from to flaunt how you're better than everyone else who is waiting for official versions of the mods in question. Not to mention, your code does not represent exactly how things could be set up, physically or not.

Barrels, with the Pneumatic Tubes mechanic of "only valid inventories", makes hoarding quick, easy, and cheap. No need for expensive modules to do your sorting, its already done by virtue of the tubes mechanic. Your complaint is the fact that people don't have to put forth the effort to sort things fancy like you do and get the result they want.

The way Tubes + Barrels could work, if you had thought about it, is make an entire floor of barrels with tubes attached to the top of them all. Attach a single tube to the middle of this floor (best if the system is using odd numbers for the sides so there is a center square) and then attach that one single entry point to another floor where you actually are doing your work. You then have a regulator and a relay attached up on that other floor. Stick stuff in the relay, and it autosorts and fills into barrels on the storage floor. It should even not require you pre-setting up barrels to specific items. To pull stuff isn't as easy since you can't just go to it, so either add an item to the regulator and push the button to pull a stack from the barrel array, and I am pretty sure a sortron could be set up to push/pull from the system too. If there is anything that could be considered an array, its THIS setup. Two dimensional, auto-sorting array that you don't have to actually be around to access. There is no more If-Then in this setup than there is in any other possible setup.

But I will say this: I have never used Logistical Pipes. I barely even used Buildcraft pipes until I started playing FTB, because I was introduced to Pneumatic Tubes and they made a LOT of sense compared to what I had heard about Buildcraft Pipes (spilling stuff out of them if they get to the end of the line and there isn't any room, no control [before gates were added] over whether things were needed to put into the system, and random directions at intersections unless you specify a one way or pre-set materials using a diamond pipe).

But Logistical Pipes aren't part of FTB right now, so I won't try them either. I play SMP with friends and don't want to have to have everyone manually have to add/remove mods and change config settings to match the server I set up, so only basic modpacks for me (until they add the private server configuration setups as Slowpoke mentioned in his Mindcrack Interview).

Anyway. As I noticed in your last statement, you just are complaining at people for wanting to store more than a tiny bit of stuff. Has nothing to do with sorting methods or blocks that hold stuff. So maybe you should have said that in your op. I'm kind of sorry that I even got involved in this conversation, because its basically arguing on the internet. But it bothered me enough that you were using code that did not explain how things were actually in effect. Sure, you reiterated saying that it was explaining a physical representation, but even then it was still a bad example. It was a lapse explained by this comic .