Where is the line between contraption and exploit?

[ECrownofFire]

I only consider something "overpowered" if it completely outclasses everything else in every way. In the context of multiple mods, and especially within each individual mod, I don't like it when I'm forced to go down one route because it's the most efficient (EE2, GregTech, etc). I don't care if it's incredibly difficult to go down a path, I just care when one mod is so much better at doing everything that there is practically zero reason to even consider doing anything else.

Exponential growth is not bad. In fact, it's a basic design that a lot of games follow. The problem is when that growth is 100% self-contained like EE2 (use collectors to make collectors), incredibly fast with minimal setup (block of diamond is minimal in this context), and generally requires relatively little time and effort (pull the collector out of a condenser). UUM takes an incredible amount of time and work to get to, and even then there are a few resources that it still can't get you.

 

[PhilHibbs]

The mod maker thought it was so OP that he discontinued it and decided instead to rewrite the entire mod.
It wasn't balanced, if your opinion on balance differs from the opinion of the guy who wrote the mod, then your opinion is wrong.

That's a bit harsh. Modders are worthy of a great deal of deference, but saying that they are always right is a bit much! Not even the Pope claims that nowadays. For example, is Voxelmap "balanced"? It allows all players to se all entity radar options regardless of op status, so I'd say no, even if the mod author disagrees with me.

 

[Lambert2191]

That's a bit harsh. Modders are worthy of a great deal of deference, but saying that they are always right is a bit much! Not even the Pope claims that nowadays. For example, is Voxelmap "balanced"? It allows all players to se all entity radar options regardless of op status, so I'd say no, even if the mod author disagrees with me.

No idea if Voxelmap is balanced or not, never used it, never will. All Voxelmods are immediately disabled by me. And no, mod makers are not infalliable deitys, but they're the most likely to defend their creation, and if even they are like "ok hands up, I goofed, it's broken" enough to rewrite the entire thing from the ground up, the chances are, if you disagree with that, you're in the wrong.

 

[DoctorOr]

UUM takes an incredible amount of time and work to get to, and even then there are a few resources that it still can't get you.

With the base IC2 mass fab, there is very little time and even less work.

 

[Hoff]

The mod maker thought it was so OP that he discontinued it and decided instead to rewrite the entire mod.
It wasn't balanced, if your opinion on balance differs from the opinion of the guy who wrote the mod, then your opinion is wrong.

An opinion about something that is 100% subjective can never be wrong. There is no universal balance; it's all relative based on who is playing and what they want. He may have chose to discontinue the mod because it did not suit his personal balance preferences but that does not make it right or wrong. It is simply a decision. In my opinion it was a selfish one and for others it was the best thing ever. It all comes down to what you wanted from the mod he did make or is making. The mod maker isn't the decider of what is and isn't balanced for their mod their simply the one that can do something about it if they think something is imbalanced.

 

[BirdOfPrey]

what should be considered OP is purely subjective and mod creators choose the direction of a mod, not the community

exploits are more like bugs and should be fixed

it's a bad thing if a mod creator caves in under the pressure of the community and changes balance purely because of it

a modpack can change things just because a combination of mods changes the balance of individual mods in it, therefore mods should be configurable (like GT changes a lot)

another reason to make it configurable is because people are playing it SMP and SSP, a chunk loader on a server which is up 24/7 and a PC who runs minecraft once a week a couple of hours do not require recipes the be the same way (like I never gonna use advanced solars because by the time I recover the energy needed to build one from using that one, Minecraft will be on version 1.155.xx)

 

[DoctorOr]

it's a bad thing if a mod creator caves in under the pressure of the community and changes balance purely because of it

Only children think persuasive argument is pressure. I don't know what kind of person would never change their mind, but they must be worse than psychopaths.

 

[BirdOfPrey]

Only children think persuasive argument is pressure. I don't know what kind of person would never change their mind, but they must be worse than psychopaths.

what's the point of you post? insulting people
so, your saying the only reason people change their mind is because of good arguments or they are children?
and people who do not change their mind (often), psychopaths?

people change their mind all of the time even just because of pressure and even adults or I don't think you have a job or a family to run
the line between persuasive argument and pressure is thin sometimes and subjective

 

[DoctorOr]

what's the point of you post? insulting people
so, your saying the only reason people change their mind is because of good arguments or they are children?
and people who do not change their mind (often), psychopaths?

No, I am not saying any of that, but I am now saying I question your literacy.

the line between persuasive argument and pressure is thin sometimes and subjective

Subjective would mean you should stop making that determination for the mod author.

 

[Grydian2]

No, I am not saying any of that, but I am now saying I question your literacy.



Subjective would mean you should stop making that determination for the mod author.

It doesn't do your argument any good when your response is a personal insult. Try actually addressing his comments or ignore them. Personal insults are getting really too frequent around here. Take your hurt butt and deal with it yourself before you get so snarky ok? Because your acting like the child you are accusing him of being...

 

[Hoff]

Only children think persuasive argument is pressure. I don't know what kind of person would never change their mind, but they must be worse than psychopaths.

Children? Oh you must mean those Indigo children or something. Any kind of argument with intent to change another persons mind is, by definition, pressure toward them. Also it's called being stubborn or not really giving a rats ass what anyone else thinks about what you're doing. In fact that's exactly what Pahimar did. He didn't care what anyone else thought and he didn't really change his mind about anything he's just now taking a new course toward the destination he wanted his mod to reach. He's re-developing the mod because he was dissatisfied with the previous. His mind was not changed.

 

[BirdOfPrey]

It doesn't do your argument any good when your response is a personal insult. Try actually addressing his comments or ignore them. Personal insults are getting really too frequent around here. Take your hurt butt and deal with it yourself before you get so snarky ok? Because your acting like the child you are accusing him of being...

thx
some people can't or do not want to understand that not everybody can be native English speaking or an English major and explain something
or he is just an asshole

 

[YX33A]

thx
some people can't or do not want to understand that not everybody can be native English speaking or an English major and explain something
or he is just an asshole

Ugh, English is a language which despite how common it is, and how almost everyone on the Internet seems to know some of it, continually fucks over people who aren't native speakers(and occasionally the native speakers get fucked themselves).
I am Canadian, and have known English my whole speaking life, and despite this, I'm only decent at spelling. My vocabulary is large, but I can only spell a portion of what I know how to speak.

Personally I want to learn a Logical Language, but then I would have to get other people to learn it as well so I could speak to them in it.

 

[Grydian2]

I also think its intellectually lazy to avoid the issues and just resort to name calling. Stick to the ideas and don't worry how they are packaged imo. Otherwise you seem petty to me. But then i am not an english major. I am a math and science guy.

 

[DoctorOr]

It doesn't do your argument any good when your response is a personal insult.

I'll survive. When somebody creates straw man arguments out of thin air and attempts to apply them to my statements, I presume they must be illiterate.

Try actually addressing his comments or ignore them.

I did.[DOUBLEPOST=1364501208][/DOUBLEPOST]

Children? Oh you must mean those Indigo children or something. Any kind of argument with intent to change another persons mind is, by definition, pressure toward them.

You are incorrect, by definition. Arguments are facts and propositions in support of a claim.

Also it's called being stubborn or not really giving a rats ass what anyone else thinks about what you're doing. In fact that's exactly what Pahimar did.

To believe that Pahimar wasn't engaged in arguments (both pro and con) with users before coming to the conclusion he did is fanciful and ignores how reality, humans, and society works.

 

[PhilHibbs]

I also think its intellectually lazy to avoid the issues and just resort to name calling. Stick to the ideas and don't worry how they are packaged imo. Otherwise you seem petty to me. But then i am not an english major. I am a math and science guy.

What's happened here is, in my estimation, that BirdOfPrey misread something Doct0r wrote as being an insult, reacted accordingly, and it inevitably went downhill from there. Looking back, I can totally see how the mistake was made, it was somewhat ambiguous wording. So, no-one actually "resorted" to it, it was all a big mistake.

I'll try to explain what I think the misunderstanding is, just a mo...

 

[tehBlobLord]

What's happened here is, in my estimation, that BirdOfPrey misread something Doct0r wrote as being an insult, reacted accordingly, and it inevitably went downhill from there. Looking back, I can totally see how the mistake was made, it was somewhat ambiguous wording.

We should be all high-and-mighty so that they get wound up and united against a common enemy!
That's how all good bromances are born!

....
I seem to be unable to stop myself from being condescending....

 

[Hoff]

You are incorrect, by definition. Arguments are facts and propositions in support of a claim.

First off; there were no "facts" about the balance of EE2 in those argument. It was purely opinions. More importantly, how is it you claim that attempting, through argument, to change the mind of someone or change what they're doing not to be pressuring them?

To believe that Pahimar wasn't engaged in arguments (both pro and con) with users before coming to the conclusion he did is fanciful and ignores how reality, humans, and society works.

It doesn't matter the arguments he was in. He didn't have to use any of them in his decision to change because the decision ultimately is with him. If you believe he set aside his own opinion on the matter and changed the mod to be something more acceptable to those who argued against his mod, please, bring him here and have him say it.

 

[Grydian2]

I'll survive. When somebody creates straw man arguments out of thin air and attempts to apply them to my statements, I presume they must be illiterate.

Isn't the very idea of insulting someone a logical fallacy? I am just saying don't do what you are accusing the other of doing. It doesn't make you sound smart it makes you sound like you are interested in causing a fight. If you want to attack his straw man then do it. Don't just resort to well he cant read and write. Its intellectually lazy.

 

[DoctorOr]

First off; there were no "facts" about the balance of EE2 in those argument.

How do you know? Are you privy to Pahimar's conversations?

It doesn't matter the arguments he was in. He didn't have to use any of them in his decision to change because the decision ultimately is with him.

Yes, and you've stated that it's ok if an author comes to such conclusions entirely on their own, but if they listen to input from others it becomes unacceptable.[DOUBLEPOST=1364516971][/DOUBLEPOST]

Isn't the very idea of insulting someone a logical fallacy? I am just saying don't do what you are accusing the other of doing. It doesn't make you sound smart it makes you sound like you are interested in causing a fight.

The actual goal is that it should sound like I am writing the person off as uninteresting to converse with. Because that's what it is.