What marks a mod/item as "OP" or "Unbalanced"?

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Wagon153

New Member
Jul 29, 2019
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I've seen these terms thrown around like candy, and I feel like it's time to settle this once and for all.
(This is NOT a mod/item hating thread! This thread is for intelligent debate, not raging. Also, wasn't sure whether to put this here or in Mod Discussion, so if a mod decides to move it, I've got no problems with it)

Now that the technicalities are sorted out, let me continue,
I see OP as an object that is abnormally powerful and cheap. Now, by cheap I don't just mean cheap to make. I also mean cheap to run. For example, a ore tripling system that costs only wood to make and needs no power. But what do you guys believe?
 

trajing

New Member
Jul 29, 2019
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OP is relative to a mod. So golems in TC4 are not OP, but they would be in MFR. How would you feel if you could use little men running around farming things for you in the same mod with identical farms, but powered?
 

Pyure

Not Totally Useless
Aug 14, 2013
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Waterloo, Ontario
I'm looking forward to the storm this thread causes. Here's my contribution:

Mods are very simply OP if they accomplish a given task as another mod (or vanilla) but with a much friendlier cost-effort/result ratio.

A sword that does 1000 hearts damage is usually OP in standard modpacks because most other weapons don't do that sort of absurd damage, and its imbalanced because most standard existing mobs won't withstand that kind of damage.

However the same sword can be considered balanced if the game is designed around that sort of damage in the first place. (either mobs have more hearts, or there's more of them and you're expected to spam-kill a la Diablo games)
 

Hoff

Tech Support
Oct 30, 2012
2,901
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Quite simply; you do. I don't mean to say you as the almighty Wagon153 is the great decider of balance but that each person decides something as balanced or not.

Now there are other ways to determine balance given a relative base value of balance. This can be for the sake of mod packs and choosing a certain level where you want things to be and things that don't meet the criteria are UP/OP. This is still ultimately decided by someone when they choose where the starting point for the balance level is.

Universally those words hold no weight at all.
 

steve g

New Member
Jul 29, 2019
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soul shards could be op once u have a few t5 spawners going. a witch spawner would result in massive amounts of redstone, glowstone, sugar, bottles, sticks. a wither spawner = free coal and wither bosses. a blaze spawner = free eu, pigmen spawner = free gold/iron/diamonds (with EE3, combine with dartcraft for even more gold), all of the above in massive quantities. good thing they can be controlled by redstone to turn them on/off as needed. combine a few of the above and you can make an insanely massive steam boiler setup running nothing but lava crystals, with comparable power output to a GT fusion reactor or 2...look in the builds thread for my lava crystal reactor. hell a lot of my factory builds relied on t5 spawners for resources or fuel.

but i normally just build huge factories with them anyway. regardless if its OP, it doesnt mean you cant play with it anyway ;)
 

Pyure

Not Totally Useless
Aug 14, 2013
8,334
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Waterloo, Ontario
Quite simply; you do. I don't mean to say you as the almighty Wagon153 is the great decider of balance but that each person decides something as balanced or not.

Now there are other ways to determine balance given a relative base value of balance. This can be for the sake of mod packs and choosing a certain level where you want things to be and things that don't meet the criteria are UP/OP. This is still ultimately decided by someone when they choose where the starting point for the balance level is.

Universally those words hold no weight at all.
If balance is relative between mod vs mod or item vs item, one can state objectively and mathematically that a given entity (machine or what have you) is imbalanced, provided enough information (cost of CoolThing, effort of CoolThing, produce of CoolThing).

This is why I'd hate to be in charge of assembling mod packs. Too many variables, and therefore too many ppl yelling at me to rebalance things.
 

vertagen

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Jul 29, 2019
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Morph is Op fair and square, ofcourse without config options such as being able to fly and other abilities only once you kill the wither, but it is still quite better than other mod fly mechanics, since they ocupy armor slots, which can be used to get armor points.
 

Hoff

Tech Support
Oct 30, 2012
2,901
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If balance is relative between mod vs mod or item vs item, one can state objectively and mathematically that a given entity (machine or what have you) is imbalanced, provided enough information (cost of CoolThing, effort of CoolThing, produce of CoolThing).

This is why I'd hate to be in charge of assembling mod packs. Too many variables, and therefore too many ppl yelling at me to rebalance things.

You still have to choose which mod is the "balanced" one and which one is UP/OP in comparison.

Do you go with the weakest one? The strongest? Something else? It's all up to SOMEONE'S choice.
 

Pyure

Not Totally Useless
Aug 14, 2013
8,334
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Waterloo, Ontario
You still have to choose which mod is the "balanced" one and which one is UP/OP in comparison.

Do you go with the weakest one? The strongest? Something else? It's all up to SOMEONE'S choice.
That's not really a question of balance sir. You're choosing the perspective, but no matter where you stand, one building is taller than another.

Or, put another way: you have forum powerz, so you're right :)
 

Feniks

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Jul 29, 2019
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For me mod is op if it makes other mods usless and not worth playing. If you look at mod and you think this mod is better than other mods it is avaliable early in the game and cost less then it is op. For example if mod gives you sord that 1kill enderdragon but requires you to have insane amount of energy quite a few satages and costs tones of gold diamonds and eemeralds then I wouldn't class it as op even though it is powerful.

The same automatic far with speed growth and no running cost is op as it makes other automatic farms usless.
 

YX33A

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Jul 29, 2019
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I was gonna write out a fancy math equation that explains how most people decide on what is OP or not, but realized I don't remember how to show that a number is meant to be negative without using a minus before it, which doesn't really work when using words. Basically is the cost, but the number here is meant to be calulated by how little it uses and thus how cheap something is, multiplied by what it does, multiplied by number of alternate options for this sort of object. So if the cost is small, and the effect is massive, yet it is the only thing that does this, the resulting number is 0, but if any other options exist, the equation does not result in a zero as one can compare it to things and thus decide how balanced it is relative to other options.

The real issue is that this would work very well if "what it does" could be easily assigned a number; which it can't be easily assigned as while this is clear, how useful the feature is can change wildly in opinions and even situations.

For Example, Using TE3 Itemducts for Apiaries. One can pull things out and send them down different paths if you install a servo thingy. This means one can bypass the need for a apiarist pipe if one uses workhorse bees(aka genetically sterile and basically clones of each other). So in this case, using the apiarist pipe may seem dumb as the bees can be easily sent into the apiary again and bee goodies sent elsewhere, but they are somewhat expensive(a diamond pipe plus some propolis, which isn't all that easy to get, though squeezing honey drops occasionally nets some(and honey drops are easy to get, eh?)), and itemducts somewhat cheap... so in this example one could say that itemducts are OP. But outside of this situation? They are not too expensive or that much better then your other options(except they cause less lag if used correctly), so they are comparable to your other options and perhaps could be used for a baseline for this sort of thing.

But a great example I wish to bring up: Dartcraft Tools(not rods/tools/weapons, nor the force mitt, tools). While it's true one can easily use DC to get a tool that automatically smelts logs and cuts down whole trees, making charcoal farms easy to use, this costs XP, liquid force, and MJ. Or one could make such a thing with TiC, where it costs a lava gem thingy and requires you to use a lumber axe.
The DC Tool will break easier then if you had not upgraded it, the TiC tool wears out no faster. The DC Tool will break when it runs out of durability, leaving you a force shard as a parting gift, the TiC Tool breaks leaving a broken tool that can be fixed by adding some of the tool head material. DC Tools technically can get repaired automatically by using liquid force in it to repair it, or by using a TC Crystal Cluster. TiC does this with a patch of moss or ignores it with a energy source.

So why is DC OP yet TiC Well Balanced? Because actual balance is just a matter of opinion, no matter what, and this is universally true for things that are called "OP" or "UP".
 

Bruigaar

New Member
Jul 29, 2019
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Over Powered is one of those truly objective statements that gets used too often. And that is because everyone has their own opinion and "OP" is the flavor word for the gaming community. As a rule I don't consider an item or ability as OP unless it breaks the balance of the setting its in.

As for balancing there has too be a true baseline in order to do that. With the addition of Mods a game like minecraft losses its baseline. So really any mod you use unbalances the game.

So really in Minecraft unless someone creates a new baseline for everyone to follow, and then modders adhere to it. There can never be balancing and no items or mods can be OP


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

vertagen

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Jul 29, 2019
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The tendency of most mods that add extensive stuff is to have a ore doubling machine or magic or whatever. Atleast thats what ive seen, then add their own kind of gadjets, toys and machines.
 

Celestialphoenix

Too Much Free Time
Nov 9, 2012
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Tartarus.. I mean at work. Same thing really.
Generally I consider it '"OP" when a mod/item effectively removes or kills gameplay by adding too much functionality.
(usually to do with stuff like routing energy/fluid/items and signal through the same "pipe", overriding basic rules like 1 block per block, 6 sides to a block ect. Stuff like machine outputs you can adjust with minetweaker anyway.)
Also 'Cheating'; using out of game/context stuff for an in-game advantage.
(Xray Vs. Mining, Minimap & GPS Vs Actual navigation ect)​
 
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trajing

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Jul 29, 2019
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Generally I consider it '"OP" when a mod/item effectively removes or kills gameplay by adding too much functionality.
(usually to do with stuff like routing energy/fluid/items and signal through the same "pipe", overriding basic rules like 1 block per block, 6 sides to a block ect. Stuff like machine outputs you can adjust with minetweaker anyway.)​
So TT and EnderIO are OP.
Also 'Cheating'; using out of game/context stuff for an in-game advantage.
(Xray Vs. Mining, Minimap & GPS Vs Actual navigation ect)​
Oh no, It's so OP, I can see where I'm walking..