What Makes a Modpack

[Celestialphoenix]

1) Cluttering NEI. I know this may not bother some people, but if there's a mod that adds 30 pages of stuff in NEI, and they have a common word in minecraft (e.g. ingot) and you know you want <x> ingot, but you don't know what <x> is, so you search ingot until you see the texture you recognize

Theres an NEI culling mod floating about that'll hide a lot of the extra junk.

Mostly "Microparts" and Forestry/Binnie's trees/bees [which is about half of NEI].​

 

[jordsta95]

Theres an NEI culling mod floating about that'll hide a lot of the extra junk.

Mostly "Microparts" and Forestry/Binnie's trees/bees [which is about half of NEI].​

I know, INPureCore. But it doesn't work for everything.

 

[Reika]

Well if it has a performance impact, the obviously there's that, but as you said there isn't then...
1) Cluttering NEI. I know this may not bother some people, but if there's a mod that adds 30 pages of stuff in NEI, and they have a common word in minecraft (e.g. ingot) and you know you want <x> ingot, but you don't know what <x> is, so you search ingot until you see the texture you recognize

2) There's no need. If there's 3+ other mods that cover every aspect of whatever that mod does, it's just a waste being there, especially if that mod has something that means it doesn't work with other mods, e.g. a different power system, or it only accepts items through the mod's own piping system, etc.

3) Over-simplification/complication. Let's say there's a mod that replicates Rotarycraft, a complex mod, but it runs entirely off of the RF system, no need for gearboxes, etc. BUT it has what is essentially the same machines. That would intgerate it, but that would make something which should be hard, too easy. Or if there was a mod like JABBA, but it required End Stone to make the barrels (overly complicated). When a mod makes something which other mods do too easy/too hard, they (in my opinion) shouldn't be included.

There's probably other reasons, but they are probably my main 3.

My point is that this community is increasingly getting tunnel vision on what mods are the best to play and a view of what mods are the "right" mods to put in packs, to the detriment of everything else. My mods, BuildCraft, IC2, and just about everything that is not a FTB staple is suffering as a result, because 75% of the community is telling everyone not to touch them and go with TE, MFR, and Big Reactors instead, and a trend is starting on reddit of downvoting everyone who suggests a non-core mod on threads like "how to do X?".

 

[jordsta95]

My point is that this community is increasingly getting tunnel vision on what mods are the best to play and a view of what mods are the "right" mods to put in packs, to the detriment of everything else. My mods, BuildCraft, IC2, and just about everything that is not a FTB staple is suffering as a result, because 75% of the community is telling everyone not to touch them and go with TE, MFR, and Big Reactors instead, and a trend is starting on reddit of downvoting everyone who suggests a non-core mod on threads like "how to do X?".

Buildcraft and IC2 seem to be in most FTB packs (that involve tech). I understand that your mods don't get included, but I think this may be because of the rough start DragonAPI had with API issues (mainly the Buildcraft one), it may be fixed now, but a mod which relies on other APIs, is sorta awkward when it comes to updating because if mod <x> updates and DragonAPI doesn't have an update yet, then there's crashes.
As for other mods, I know a lot of people do that on Reddit, but that's Reddit. I find Reddit to be one of the worse communities when it comes to opinions. "OMG THEY WANT TO DO SOMETHING DIFFERENT, BURN THEM!" is the sorta thing I think of when people talk about new things on Reddit, hence why you rarely, if ever, see me on there

 

[Reika]

Buildcraft and IC2 seem to be in most FTB packs (that involve tech).

And look how much hate is getting slung at the FTB team for it, and how many threads we see that are basically "should we make IC2 just stop existing?".

I think this may be because of the rough start DragonAPI had with API issues (mainly the Buildcraft one), it may be fixed now, but a mod which relies on other APIs, is sorta awkward when it comes to updating because if mod <x> updates and DragonAPI doesn't have an update yet, then there's crashes.

Those were fixed long ago and should never happen again. Also, I know for a fact that the reason RC is no longer an FTB pack mod is because it is not an RF mod, which community pressure has dictated as a requirement. I do realize that originally there were plans to have packs so "other power systems could shine", but as far as I can tell those plans died long ago from lack of interest. I have also been told that such packs were left for the community to make as third-party packs, but that helps little as most third party packs are either "FTB +/- one mod" or "50000 new recipes, nothing works the same", neither of which will ever include RC.

 

[LokiChaos]

It is a shame some mods go unnoticed or underused, but I think making it easier for people to roll their own packs and share them to play with friends will help with this. It should minimize the ability for pack makers to passively act as "gatekeepers". I know I actively seek out mods I don't see in FTB packs when making my own. I still avoid IC2 because I disagree with various design decisions that make the game less fun and a unnamed mod maker's mods because of external factors regarding terms of use which I avoid on principle. I don't generally like overlap in my mods, so I don't do things like put EnderIO and TE in the same pack, I do one or the other, but I'm happy to play a pack with either one.

 

[jordsta95]

And look how much hate is getting slung at the FTB team for it, and how many threads we see that are basically "should we make IC2 just stop existing?".


Those were fixed long ago and should never happen again. Also, I know for a fact that the reason RC is no longer an FTB pack mod is because it is not an RF mod, which community pressure has dictated as a requirement. I do realize that originally there were plans to have packs so "other power systems could shine", but as far as I can tell those plans died long ago from lack of interest. I have also been told that such packs were left for the community to make as third-party packs, but that helps little as most third party packs are either "FTB +/- one mod" or "50000 new recipes, nothing works the same", neither of which will ever include RC.

I was actually thinking of making a RoC pack, but that meant figuring out how to balance other mods around it

I may talk this over a little more in detail with the Phoenix team, but a pack with no "ORIGINALLY RF" mods (i.e. Buildcraft is allowed, but TE isn't - just because, although it was originally MJ, it created RF)


But yeah, I understand it was a long time ago, and it probably was a bit of a PITA on your part, because of the "death of MJ" causing massive BC changes.

 

[Celestialphoenix]

Buildcraft and IC2 have had a lot- as in a absolute metric f*bleeping*tonne- of time to shine in modded MC over the years.

During that time quite a few other mods (such as the UE family) got somewhat shafted by the mainstream community.​

While it is refreshing to have a change, I'm personally not a fan of this new trend- making everything as 'user friendly' as possible, which inadvertently cuts out a lot of the design, creativity and ingenuity that came with playing [modded] MC.

The community has always had its favourites, its just a shame it comes at such a high cost- not only in lack of exposure to those who need it, but those who buckle under community pressure and sacrifice their design integrity to appease the unwashed masses.

I also find the RF only attitude somewhat hypocritical as "magic based" power systems get let off the hook. Energy is still energy regardless of source, so why is it demanded that technology must conform to a certain standard?

Can anyone explain to me how a daybloom is different to a solar panel? Or sacrificing mobs for blood power is different to burning mob essence [exp] in a dynamo?​

 

[Reika]

Buildcraft and IC2 have had a lot- as in a absolute metric f*bleeping*tonne- of time to shine in modded MC over the years.

Very true, but that need not reverse and go to the current state of people actively calling for the death of BC and IC2 (and any other "greggy" mods, as one person put it).

a unnamed mod maker's mods because of external factors regarding terms of use which I avoid on principle.

You should probably try harder in disguising who you are talking about. Also, there is no need to; I am not going to get angry with you for avoiding them (so long as you do not try and claim I am morally/legally wrong for having the rules or try to start a "everyone avoid Reika" movement).

But yeah, I understand it was a long time ago, and it probably was a bit of a PITA on your part, because of the "death of MJ" causing massive BC changes.

That and classloading issues that actually causes crashes if I do not ship the APIs (Minechem, BC, and Waila being examples).

I was actually thinking of making a RoC pack, but that meant figuring out how to balance other mods around it

It is set up in such a way that you do not really need to. It coexists nicely.

 

[asiekierka]

Very true, but that need not reverse and go to the current state of people actively calling for the death of BC and IC2 (and any other "greggy" mods, as one person put it).

BC is "greggy"? I can't hold it anymore... Seriously, one of the least microcraft-y mods in modern modding, with very simple rules of how things intearct with each other, is "greggy"?

Also, to everyone actively calling for the death of BC: You'll have to take me down first. And about IC2, Player doesn't look like he will give up any time soon either.

The community has always had its favourites, its just a shame it comes at such a high cost- not only in lack of exposure to those who need it, but those who buckle under community pressure and sacrifice their design integrity to appease the unwashed masses.

You're silly. Why do you care about the community? Why do you care about the masses? Play what you want for the love of the craft. Mod for the love of the craft. Mod for the few dedicated players who love your mod and will walk through with it to the very end. You don't need the masses. The masses don't need you. They have their own brains and their own minds to choose what they prefer.

 

[GamerwithnoGame]

Sorry for the rather late callback @Reika but:

My word of advice is if you want to experience the mods as they were intended, or are learning them for the first time, avoid strongly themed packs at all costs. They dramatically - or even unrecognizably - change the way those mods work, and rather little of the gameplay will be the same as you are expecting (and if you are learning the mod, just about everything you learn about how it works will likely prove useless as soon as you play a different pack).

I agree strongly on this point. I'm really enjoying AgSkies, but I found myself quite disappointed at the lack of ExUtilities pipes. It's immediately obvious why they were excluded, and I love the balance of the pack; that said, I don't feel like I'm getting the full ExUtilities experience! Likewise for a couple of omissions from OpenBlocks.

I probably would come across as tunnel-vision-ey (I think that's a word ) in my choice of mods for my personal pack, but that is a product of necessity - my computer is very low spec, so it's now struggling with AgSkies, and I'm having to go with an FTB Lite 2 base. I really can't seem to do 1.7.10 I was most disappointed to realise that all the characterful things I'd seen in EnderIO (slice n splice, hootch and so on) were 1.7.X only!

Ultimately, there is definitely the chance of missing the full experience of a mod in a heavily tweaked modpack. I can also say, hand on heart, that there are some mods I just wouldn't have used without a quest-driven modpack, so there's definitely two schools of thought!

- GwnG

 

[asiekierka]

My mods, BuildCraft, IC2, and just about everything that is not a FTB staple is suffering as a result, because 75% of the community is telling everyone not to touch them and go with TE, MFR, and Big Reactors instead, and a trend is starting on reddit of downvoting everyone who suggests a non-core mod on threads like "how to do X?".

As I said many times, the only reason I don't support your mods is your license.

About BuildCraft and IC2... BuildCraft gets the slack because most people haven't played it since 1.2.5 or - sometimes - 1.4.7, and thus have no idea about the new features, changes and improvements. IC2 gets it because by following GregTech's design ethos, it alienated a lot of its more casual players (see IC2 Classic vs. Experimental).

 

[Reika]

As I said many times, the only reason I don't support your mods is your license.

That may be the case, but I would hope that you are not one of the ones going around telling people to remove it from their packs or not to play it.

 

[asiekierka]

That may be the case, but I would hope that you are not one of the ones going around telling people to remove it from their packs or not to play it.

No. I actually defended your right to have that license a while back, because I believe that people should have the right to disagree.

 

[Vauthil]

What makes a good mod pack? A few things:

• Coherent Vision: The mod pack creator needs a clear and coherent vision of what they want to achieve with the pack. Tastes will determine who gravitates to what vision, but there needs to be a vision (and yes, even "kitchen sink" is one, although not particularly my favorite of all). Without this, it's just a collection of mods.
• Expertise: The mod pack creator should be aware of the mods in the pack and their place in the pack, and should know how to wrangle configurations to ensure they operate in these places. Without this, you can't achieve a coherent vision.
• Support: The mod pack creator needs to have some mechanism in place to support the pack. At a minimum, this means somewhere to collect issues and assist users and a means and willingness to communicate issues to mod developers when they arise. Without this, people will throw up their hands and go do something else after they've had enough.

My personal preference is for tighter packs with a coherent progression. I do play the kitchen sink packs on a server, but largely because (a) people I play with don't spend as much time sampling mods so they just want the smorgasbord (b) kitchen sink packs give me exposure to things I want to meld together later for a coherent personal pack to meddle with. RotaryCraft et al. kept me in Monster for a good while, for example.

My word of advice is if you want to experience the mods as they were intended, or are learning them for the first time, avoid strongly themed packs at all costs. They dramatically - or even unrecognizably - change the way those mods work, and rather little of the gameplay will be the same as you are expecting (and if you are learning the mod, just about everything you learn about how it works will likely prove useless as soon as you play a different pack).

Some day I will stop being lazy/evasive and will pick your brain about making a mod pack centered around your tech mods that you'd want to actually play. I grew attached to your tech stuff but that was in the context of larger packs, where I could fudge some of the problem-solving; having seen some of your private play videos made me wonder if stripping down to just the basics of your stuff is how I should put it out there, though, or if there are some must-have things you'd want in such a pack. Of course over-pondering it instead of just asking is what I've been doing. =)

 

[Reika]

Some day I will stop being lazy/evasive and will pick your brain about making a mod pack centered around your tech mods that you'd want to actually play. I grew attached to your tech stuff but that was in the context of larger packs, where I could fudge some of the problem-solving; having seen some of your private play videos made me wonder if stripping down to just the basics of your stuff is how I should put it out there, though, or if there are some must-have things you'd want in such a pack. Of course over-pondering it instead of just asking is what I've been doing. =)

The pack we are playing on my dev server is basically a kitchen sink pack with a strong focus on my mods. It is similar to Monster or Unleashed, but with anything that duplicated functionality of my mods for less or equivalent effort removed (so we have MFR, but only for the laser drills and a few items, parts of TTKami and ExU and MagicCrops are disabled (as is the magiccrops ore essence)). This is largely because on the 1.6 version of the server there was no such effort, and I was the only one to use RC, making it less a testing server and more a TE and MFR server.
That said, we still have all the mods that I like to use, even if only for a part, such as AE, TC, RailCraft, and IC2. And mods like TE are included because they make a fairly good early game until superseded by RC.

Another big rule for me though is that I really hate large-scale terrain damage, either at worldgen or later, so for me things like AE2 meteor gen and TC taint are absolutely unacceptable. I will not play a pack with those on. Sinister nodes biome changing is on the edge of permissibility, accepted because it can be reverted.

Also, I really want the "feel" of the game to remain recognizable, which means mods with lots of new mobs (especially ones not styled after vanilla), such as Lycanites or Gany's mods, or things that dramatically change the "vanilla" portion of the game, such as TFC or unconfigured GT, have a very hard time getting my acceptance. Biome mods run this line, though more realistic biomes (Some of highlands, BoP shield, EBXL Temperate rainforest [which I really liked]) are usually OK. Unconfigured BoP (which is basically 1/3 realistic, 1/3 "everything is brown", and 1/3 acid trip) is not.

Finally, I prefer easier gameplay. I will never touch a pack like BnB or with mobs like Lycanites. This also ties into my view that unavoidable punishment is extremely poor game design. Whether it is punishment for using the mod - which I categorize TC Warp as, seeing as it is basically "you used some TC stuff, now suffer for it forever" - or something like "mob spawns in your face and immediately kills you without warning or a way to defend yourself"/"mobs can rip apart every block in the game, there is literally no way to shield yourself", are not acceptable because both are merely frustrating. Similarly, things that do nothing but slow down gameplay (such as reducing inventory size, or adding ten new crafting steps to various things) are not enjoyable.

No. I actually defended your right to have that license a while back, because I believe that people should have the right to disagree.

 

[Lethosos]

I'll step in now and say that I largely agree with the advice regarding modpacks. I'm in the middle of one right now, and I just want to add that if you're gonna get some advice from the public, be up front with your vision. I asked the Kitty Jail folks on mine, and I think they thought it would be like a kitchen sink pack of sorts. Had to clarify some points and, thankfully, they're all a bunch of smart cookies. I'm investigating some of their good suggestions right now.

(RoC and ReC were initially in the first iteration of the pack, but there's no good way to output to RF as Mcjty kinda wrote RFTools that way. Had to replace it with TE temporarily. Sorry.)

Sent from my SGH-T769 using Tapatalk 2

 

[ljfa]

as RWTema kinda wrote RFTools that way

what?
RWTema didn't write RFTools.

 

[Lethosos]

what?
RWTema didn't write RFTools.

*goes back to check*

Whoops. Fixing right now.

Sent from my SGH-T769 using Tapatalk 2

 

[Reika]

(RoC and ReC were initially in the first iteration of the pack, but there's no good way to output to RF

And with the new conversion ratio, it is better than ever. Even the DC engine generates 1RF/t, and the jet engine generates 129kRF/t, and the ReC turbines generate 1.827MRF/t and 16.519MRF/t respectively.