Tree breeding - Need more apples!

[Jeff Fisher]

Well I got a nice Biomass / Biofuel set up using a steves cart tree farm but I would REALLY like to get some more apples.

Now I messed with the tree breading a tiny tiny bit and noticed that if you put the apple oak in the tree analyzer there are"Yield" and "sappiness" traits..

Now I can't figure out how You would increase those.... I've Treealyzed a bunch of oak tress and they all have the "Lowest" Yield.. So what the heck would you bread these with to get a higher yield?

I'm not sure I understand this.. Also why are some of the active and inactive traits Blue or Red? I'm guessing that has to do with which traits will most likely be passed on.. I'm not to sure how this works, I'm also trying to work on bees so I think learning this will help with those also.

I have a diamond chest full of random saplings from my bees crossbreeding but not sure what to do with them. I found a chart that shows how to get what trees but it does not say anything about how to breed specific traits into trees.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks.

 

[baw179]

How many apples do you need and for what? I was running a slight deficit on apples (for mulch for my fermenters) when I was running a single SC tree farm but I had quite a sizeable track and only 1 cart. What I've done now is made 4 carts on 4 separate tracks in an E shape and with 2 water-fed fermenters running on max and 1 apple juice fed fermenter on max I'm slowly getting a surplus of mulch in my supply barrel.

The 4 tracks are 21 long on the vertical of the 'E' and each arm of the 'E' is 16 long. There are 3 spaces in between all sections of track. Just these 4 carts are providing me with enough wood and saplings to power 4 HP36 boilers with biofuel, 1 HP36 boiler with planks and enough wood left over to give me 520 EU/t from an array of IC2 generators.

Bear in mind that vanilla saps are supposedly being nerfed to only give a quarter of their current biomass output in the next version.

 

[Jeff Fisher]

How many apples do you need and for what? I was running a slight deficit on apples (for mulch for my fermenters) when I was running a single SC tree farm but I had quite a sizeable track and only 1 cart. What I've done now is made 4 carts on 4 separate tracks in an E shape and with 2 water-fed fermenters running on max and 1 apple juice fed fermenter on max I'm slowly getting a surplus of mulch in my supply barrel.

The 4 tracks are 21 long on the vertical of the 'E' and each arm of the 'E' is 16 long. There are 3 spaces in between all sections of track. Just these 4 carts are providing me with enough wood and saplings to power 4 HP36 boilers with biofuel, 1 HP36 boiler with planks and enough wood left over to give me 520 EU/t from an array of IC2 generators.

Bear in mind that vanilla saps are supposedly being nerfed to only give a quarter of their current biomass output in the next version.

What the saplings are going to be nerfed!? wth... Is there going to be a way to get that level of biomass production back, with forestry saplings maybe or something? thats nutz I'm all for balance and things being tough enough to make things rewarding to accomplish I'm not sure how I feel about that nerf yet considering I decided to use biomass and fuel in the first place instead of lava because the other guys on my server use lava and it just feels to easy and cheap to me.. But biofuel you have to have a tree farm and convert the saplings into biomass convert that into biofuel ect and trying to automate it is more rewarding then hooking a pump up in the nether and a bunch of thermal generators and getting power from that. Hmm..... If they do that as long as there is a way to breed some forestry trees to get that level of production back im fine with that.. I think...

I might just have to split my Steve's cart tree farm into 2 instead of 1 big farm because I tihnk im loosing production with itbeing so big and only having 1 cart. But I would still Like to know about breeding trees to increase apple output.

 

[baw179]

Jeff, there was some discussion about it in this thread if you go back a couple of pages: http://forum.feed-the-beast.com/threads/steam-boilers-vs-ic2-eu-generators.16613/page-4#post-194521

Personally I'm not happy about it (as you'll see from my post) because - like poppycocks - I don't like being forced to play the game in a certain way requiring me to do things I don't enjoy doing (bee breeding in this case, and to a lesser extent tree breeding as well). I'm preparing to either build more SC tree farms to increase the sapling production and/or build another solid fuelled boiler and produce the bulk of my MJ with wood instead. Either way, Sengir won't be forcing me into doing bees and tree breeding, that is for certain. As the old saying goes - there's more than one way to skin a cat.

 

[Sengir]

Would people please realise that there is such a thing as a config file before freaking out over an unreleased mechanic? Thanks.

Yes, you will be able to increase the sapling output back to its previous level via config file. Like almost any other balance point in the mod btw.

 

[Slaagathor]

At least its easy to get regular apple oaks... just run regular oak saplings through a treealyzer, and they automatically turn into Apple Oak Saplings. They still have crappy sappiness and yield, but I think they output more apples than a regular oak. They don't work in an SC tree farm though, only manual planting or a Forestry multiblock farm in orchard mode (afaik).

 

[Omicron]

Well what did you expect, Sengir?

After all, requiring people to invest more than than five minutes worth of effort for eternally infinite energy is complete heresy!

@ Slaagathor: apple oaks work fine in a multifarm arboretum too. The multifarm will even treealyze all regular oak saplings for you automatically and plant them as apple oaks. As a result you get about 4 times as many apples from a multifarm as you do from a Steve's Carts farm cutting the same amount of oak trees (at least in 1.4.7, we'll see how the genetic trait rebalance of 1.5.1 affects that). The nominal difference is 5 times as many apples, but the SC cart farm can get huge oaks while the multifarm is limited to normal ones.

 

[Jeff Fisher]

Well what did you expect, Sengir?

After all, requiring people to invest more than than five minutes worth of effort for eternally infinite energy is complete heresy!

@ Slaagathor: apple oaks work fine in a multifarm arboretum too. The multifarm will even treealyze all regular oak saplings for you automatically and plant them as apple oaks. As a result you get about 4 times as many apples from a multifarm as you do from a Steve's Carts farm cutting the same amount of oak trees (at least in 1.4.7, we'll see how the genetic trait rebalance of 1.5.1 affects that). The nominal difference is 5 times as many apples, but the SC cart farm can get huge oaks while the multifarm is limited to normal ones.

I didn't realize that there was going to be a config option no one stated that for one. And Also I don't mind things being harder I play with gregtech its defualt settings in on the mindcrack pack and I don't use lava or solar panels for power as i think there cheaty. Just for some reason 4x lower the amount sounded like alot to me. Its really no big deal you guys make it sound like I crying my eyes out about it or something wth geesh If I was that concerned about it I would have made a damn post just to cry about it. I can't reply to someone without being labeled a whiner or crybaby because i was surprised it was being nerfed.

Anyways back to my ORIGINAL question.........

Is there a way to breed a higher apple yield into a tree using the foerestry tree breeding? I would imagine there has to be but can't think of how to do it I mean if you combine an apple oak with something that has a higher yield wont you just get a completely different tree.. And as far as just combining two different apple oaks every one I have seen so far has the same yield amount .

 

[Dravarden]

because every apple oak is the same, i think is with the cherry tree, since it gives one per leave block.

 

[Omicron]

Tree breeding works just like bee breeding. That means that to get a new tree, you actually need to get a mutation to happen during the breeding, which is a fairly low random chance. Most of the time, if you crossbreed tree A with tree B, you're just going to get AB hybrids instead of tree C.

What you need to do is find or breed a tree B that has a higher yield rating than the apple oak (your tree A), and then breed an AB hybrid that combines the apple fruits of A with the higher yield of B. Once you have one such sapling, you can plant it, bonemeal it, and harvest it for saplings which will all inherit exactly those traits. In that respect, tree breeding is actually more comfortable than bee breeding, where it's sometimes quite hard to stabilize a breeding pair at exactly the traits you want (unless you run ExtraBees of course).

 

[Dravarden]

Tree breeding works just like bee breeding. That means that to get a new tree, you actually need to get a mutation to happen during the breeding, which is a fairly low random chance. Most of the time, if you crossbreed tree A with tree B, you're just going to get AB hybrids instead of tree C.

What you need to do is find or breed a tree B that has a higher yield rating than the apple oak (your tree A), and then breed an AB hybrid that combines the apple fruits of A with the higher yield of B. Once you have one such sapling, you can plant it, bonemeal it, and harvest it for saplings which will all inherit exactly those traits. In that respect, tree breeding is actually more comfortable than bee breeding, where it's sometimes quite hard to stabilize a breeding pair at exactly the traits you want (unless you run ExtraBees of course).

the sad part is that there is no extra trees yet, to have the specific traits you want with tree DNA and stuff...

 

[baw179]

Would people please realise that there is such a thing as a config file before freaking out over an unreleased mechanic? Thanks.

Yes, you will be able to increase the sapling output back to its previous level via config file. Like almost any other balance point in the mod btw.

Given the 300 pages of complaints about the introduction of the multi-farms which was closely followed by another 10 pages of complaints about the removal of the old style farms, a far better option would be to leave the farms, bees and trees as they are and let people adjust the config files themselves if they want to grind bees and trees for months on end. That way everyone would be happy instead of only pandering to the vocal minority that continually whine about everything being "OP".

There is simply nothing wrong with the balance of the mod as it stands right now. How often do you see a thread on here complaining that trees or saplings are over-powered? I can recall precisely none = there is no issue. Like I said above, there is a vocal minority of members here that spend all their time whining about everything being OP and needs nerfing, but even if you made saplings only produce 1 mb of biomass they would still whine that they're OP and want them nerfing even more.

 

[Maldroth]

the sad part is that there is no extra trees yet, to have the specific traits you want with tree DNA and stuff...

Given the experimentation that I've done with Tree breeding so far messing with treeDNA would be kinda a power sink.

As stated with Omicron, stick your apple tree down next to a tree that has the sappiness or yield trait that you want and wait for mutated leaves. Hit them with the forestry tool that gives 100% drop rate on saplings and see if the sapling has the traits you want. If so plant it away from the bees and then harvest the leaves for more saplings. If you don't get what you want your original trees will still continue to mutate over time and you can keep hitting the leaves until you find what you want. In a way it is easier than bees to splice traits, just no way to speed the process up.

If you manage to get a Bamboo tree you can splice that too into your apple oak for a greater number of saplings to drop. With that you will have saplings and apples for days.

 

[Omicron]

Well, there is one thing that can speed the process up... MOAR BEES!

 

[Sengir]

That way everyone would be happy instead of only pandering to the vocal minority that continually whine about everything being "OP".

You misunderstand. The change wasn't done to appease anyone crying "OP". The change was done because I like it better that way.

 

[Maldroth]

Well, there is one thing that can speed the process up... MOAR BEES!

Also using bees that have the Fastest pollination rate will make trees mutate MUCH faster. I'd use them if you want to be serious about tree breeding.

Sengir, any chance you might do something similar with other crops? The crossbreeding aspect such as Bees and Trees.

 

[Sengir]

Sengir, any chance you might do something similar with other crops? The crossbreeding aspect such as Bees and Trees.

So many ideas, so little time. More is planned.

 

[Lambert2191]

give IC2 crops a bit of competition... it's not a popular mechanic by any stretch of the imagination but it still has no competition as far as I can tell... would be nice to see a forestry implementation.

 

[Jeff Fisher]

You misunderstand. The change wasn't done to appease anyone crying "OP". The change was done because I like it better that way.

I don't mind the change really. I was just surprised since I didn't hear anything about it before. I tend to be one of the people that like things to be harder like I said I keep my gregtech stuff on the hard settings, I don't use UUmatter because I want to try to do everything with bees instead , I don't pump lava for power because I think its cheap, I don't use solar because I think there cheaty. I like to over complicate things I guess. I try to find ways to do things that alot of people wouldn't bother doing because they would rather take the easy route. Like I could easily just make a bigger tree farm, But I want to experiment with tree breeding and just make my trees produce more apples. I like to do things like that because is lets me mess with alot of things in the mods most people just skip over. When you change the trees to give less biomass I will just find a way to make more then I did before the change.

I didn't want this to turn into a thread with people complaining about things they think are to hard because I wont stick up for the people that complain about that. I like things hard so if he wants to nerf the saplings go for it, I was just surprised that I never heard anything about it and never really though it was needed. I will just make an overly complicated way to get more biomass ..
Keep up the good work btw sengir. I have to say I wasn't happy about the multifarms when they were released.. That was until I actually started using them lol. They work great I have one set up for Rubber trees and Cactus and It barley ever uses fertilizer, Plus I have 2 peat farms powering a boiler so I have alot of ash to increase my fertilizer output.

As it stands rite now my Biomass produciton cant keep up with my biofuel processing so thats why I wanted to get some more apple juice. It will be alot harder when the change happens to saplings so I have a feeling more people will just take the easy route of throwing a pump in the nether and hooking up 20 thermal generators or making a lava mystcraft age and doing the same.

Given the experimentation that I've done with Tree breeding so far messing with treeDNA would be kinda a power sink.

As stated with Omicron, stick your apple tree down next to a tree that has the sappiness or yield trait that you want and wait for mutated leaves. Hit them with the forestry tool that gives 100% drop rate on saplings and see if the sapling has the traits you want. If so plant it away from the bees and then harvest the leaves for more saplings. If you don't get what you want your original trees will still continue to mutate over time and you can keep hitting the leaves until you find what you want. In a way it is easier than bees to splice traits, just no way to speed the process up.

If you manage to get a Bamboo tree you can splice that too into your apple oak for a greater number of saplings to drop. With that you will have saplings and apples for days.

Thanks thats the reply I was looking for ^ I'll give it a shot

 

[Chocorate]

What really need is a system where nearby bees can act like an area-of-effect bonemeal for trees. :3