Thermal Expansion Status

[natnif36]

That's like saying "aren't they called Pneumatic Tubes by Eloraam", or "aren't they called Logistics Pipes by davboecki & co".

Logistics pipes may have been more fitting with BC perhaps.

But Energy Conduits aren't pipes that move a strange liquid pneumatic energy thing.
It is one system, and that whole system netword contains a certain amount of energy.

Energy is added and subtracted as appropriate, with no delay.

Infitubes can essentially do this, but with items, or AE for the whole system/network ideal I have been basing on.

 

[PhilHibbs]

OK I see what you mean. But there's no reason to equate instant energy transmission with instant item transmission. It makes sense Thermal Expansion Energy Conduits transmit energy instantly, or as near as makes no difference, because energy behaves that way. To take that to mean that Thermal Expansion Item Conduits would also transmit items instantly is not logical. By that logic, since blulectric wires transmit blutricity instantly, so surely Pneumatic Tubes should also do so? Sure, there are computational advantages to doing so, so maybe TE will have instant item transfer, which would also avoid the spill-out or back-stuffing alternatives. And, by the way, I am convinced that those are the only three options: spill out, infinite backstuffing buffer, or transfer instantaneously. I'd be interested if there are any other solutions to the item transfer problem.

 

[natnif36]

OK I see what you mean. But there's no reason to equate instant energy transmission with instant item transmission. It makes sense Thermal Expansion Energy Conduits transmit energy instantly, or as near as makes no difference, because energy behaves that way. To take that to mean that Thermal Expansion Item Conduits would also transmit items instantly is not logical. By that logic, since blulectric wires transmit blutricity instantly, so surely Pneumatic Tubes should also do so? Sure, there are computational advantages to doing so, so maybe TE will have instant item transfer, which would also avoid the spill-out or back-stuffing alternatives. And, by the way, I am convinced that those are the only three options: spill out, infinite backstuffing buffer, or transfer instantaneously. I'd be interested if there are any other solutions to the item transfer problem.

Yeah, that's the problem that has existed since item transport began.

I guess liquiducts aren't really instant either...

But basically TE works in whatever way is the most conditionally efficient way possible.
Energy is best done instantly.
Liquids don't matter - KL is rewriting the forge Liquid Api in 1.6
And items seem to be best done instantly, so that they don't need to be rendered while "traveling".

AE and Infitubes do items like this and it seems to be very effective.

But again, whatever is most conditionally effecient.

 

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Problem with Infinitubes: Why bother when it requires power and you already have AE? If it didn't require power, then sure, Infinitubes. Since it does... kinda no point to it. I'd much rather have something like RP2 tubes which don't spit things out but don't need power to run and have a consistent logic for item routing.

 

[PhilHibbs]

Problem with Infinitubes: Why bother when it requires power and you already have AE? If it didn't require power, then sure, Infinitubes.

That doesn't make any sense at all.

 

[giesergast]

Problem with Infinitubes: Why bother when it requires power and you already have AE? If it didn't require power, then sure, Infinitubes. Since it does... kinda no point to it. I'd much rather have something like RP2 tubes which don't spit things out but don't need power to run and have a consistent logic for item routing.

the ae wires do require power

 

[PhilHibbs]

the ae wires do require power

I interpreted Shneekey as saying "AE is superior to Infinitubes, so the only reason to use Inifinitubes would be if it were cheaper to run by not requiring power". However, I don't see Infinitubes as being a pure subset of AE. If you want to do stuff with your input before it gets into the AE system, you need something outside of AE. Once it goes into the AE network, it becomes indistinguishable from your storage reserves. Most people have adapted to that by having waterfall systems with level emitters, but those need to be adjusted as your reserves expand to cope with higher burst usage. A full rebuttal would need greater knowledge of Inifinitubes than I have, but I'm uneasy about the statement that AE can do everything that Infinitubes can do equally well.
*Edit* Of course that "something outside of AE" could be a separate AE network just to preprocess input before it goes into storage. Want to process half of your ores? Two ME Export Buses, one goes to a bank of Macerators/Pulverizers, one goes to the storage network input. Of course if the ore processing fills up then that breaks the 50/50 rule, so build more machines or overclockers!

 

[RedBoss]

I think he meant that since AE is already using power to transport items, then he sees no advantage to using an additional item transport system that needs power of its own. You would be better off just using one system since it's power usage stays in one network.

 

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I think he meant that since AE is already using power to transport items, then he sees no advantage to using an additional item transport system that needs power of its own. You would be better off just using one system since it's power usage stays in one network.

Yes, this.

Since Infinitubes requires power, there is no 'value added' for using it over AE. The sorting system is different, but neither superior nor inferior, so it ends up a wash. Sure, you *could*, and it doesn't really require any infrastructure outside of aforementioned power requirements, however you run into the quandary of 'what does this mod do for me that can't be done elsewhere?'. And it comes up with a huge blank when AE is involved.

AE requires about the same sort of materials requirements to get started, so by the time you start thinking about Infinitubes, you've also got AE going, which has storage and sorting built in as 'value added'. The Controller, Disk Drive, and Monitor are three blocks which completely replaces your whole storage facility.

 

[Molten]

A poor excuse for picking a mod's pocket every time there's a version update! *buttons up greatcoat* But I suppose you must have the whole week. Be here all the earlier the next morning!

I see an old tesseract in the corner, carefully preserved but without an owner...

Go out an but a brand new bucket of liquid redstone before you dot another I.

 

[SandGrainOne]

... I am convinced that those are the only three options: spill out, infinite backstuffing buffer, or transfer instantaneously. I'd be interested if there are any other solutions to the item transfer problem.

In BuildCraft, the solution to the item transfer problem is called gates, triggers and wires. I personally think it's brilliant that it's put in the players hand to configure a system in a way, so that the receiving system have room for any items still in transit. It's all about finding the right conditions to turn the supply on and off based on the length of the pipes and the speed of the items. Instant travel and built in overflow protection take away what I think is a very interesting system design problem.

 

[PhilHibbs]

In BuildCraft, the solution to the item transfer problem is called gates, triggers and wires.

That's a useful tool set for avoiding the problem, but what I meant was, an "if all else fails" last resort. Eventually an item has to go somewhere. You can't have infinite items circulating (and I just realised - there's a fourth opton which Buildcraft also uses, "destroy the item") so when all else fails, the mod has to do something with it. RedPower backstuffs it, Buildcraft either spills it out on the ground or destroys it if there are too many items in a pipe (you get explosion noises when this happens).

You can set up a gate to send a pipe signal when there's space in the inventory, and an autarchic gate to pulse when it gets the signal, but there's always a chance that the space will be filled up by the time the items get there. When that happens, something has to give.

Instant travel and built in overflow protection take away what I think is a very interesting system design problem.

I agree - I like systems that have problems that can be solved in interesting and creative ways.

 

[PsionicArchon]

I come here to say but one thing: Please, please, please for the love of all things just and, unjust in this universe, do not create yet another power system for us to manage. Thermal Expansion is a fantastic mod, it adapts well to Buildcraft energy and, with the array of converters available at our disposal opting to run TE machines via EU or UE is a breeze. It is however, a major headache for anyone in the business of configuring config files for balance see: every budding mod pack creator, with just three power distribution models to worry about. Tacking on yet another system will force another power converter, more balancing between each network revolving around, "This much TE energy equals a certain amount of MJ, which must also equal out to a set amount of EU and.." I'm sure you can see where I'm going with this.

As for the questions about new pipes and, pipe logic. Gates/wires/caps, they're all fantastic additions to Buildcraft that when utilized properly allow for some truly intriguing setups. Still, they are far from perfect. Pneumatic tubes filled a niche for me, they offered a low cost method of routing items that appealed to me when initially starting out in a world. A viable low cost alternative would be much appreciated.

 

[Golrith]

Small issue is that the BC teams idea of how MJ works is not the same as TE teams idea/method. It's not supposed to be storable, but TE offers it being storable with only one type of "pipe" to worry about.
Personally I much prefer the TE ideal over the original design idea of BC. It allows you to get on and build stuff, not worry about all your "wiring" systems and ensuring that you've got the correct pipes for the right machines, and sufficient engines to supply a constant amount of power.
Without TE, I doubt I'd be playing with MJ based mods as it makes managing power/energy much easier, but at a much more greater resource cost.

 

[natnif36]

In guessing, if anything new needs implemented in regards to power PsionicArchon, it will be done like MFR - all converted internally.

 

[Harvest88]

In guessing, if anything new needs implemented in regards to power PsionicArchon, it will be done like MFR - all converted internally.

GT does that too and there no way to get it out either like MFR.

 

[PhilHibbs]

I come here to say but one thing: Please, please, please for the love of all things just and, unjust in this universe, do not create yet another power system for us to manage.

KL has stated that he sees no reason to stop using Buildcraft power.

 

[PsionicArchon]

I made a large response post about infinite power loops with MFR among other things and, well, the gods decided I wasn't worthy. In said post I went into grave detail about WHY I would prefer any new system not function like MFRs does because, it makes balance complicated.

PhilHibbs, I made that post on the off chance that he suddenly becomes inspired to create another power network. I hope he stands by his recent statements in sticking with Buildcraft's.

 

[Bellaabzug21]

That's fine. People waited six months for eloraam, I'm sure we can wait a week for you to get started.

 

[namiasdf]

Log out, turn off, get drunk, eat lots, have fun ... most of us are a patient bunch