I imagine it's to do with having infinite water for hydroangeas but non-infinite lava for thermalillys.
The good things about Botania despawning passive plants
- Thread starter GreenZombie
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I imagine it's to do with having infinite water for hydroangeas but non-infinite lava for thermalillys.
Wait, hydroangeas's can decay as well? There's plenty of mod packs that have a finite water mod of some sort, so....
I don't use Botania, but dang, that's a design decision I just can't get behind. Passive generation has it's use. Might as well just remove them from the game, if you are making them completely useless outside of making the 1st set of other flowers...
I don't use Botania, but dang, that's a design decision I just can't get behind. Passive generation has it's use. Might as well just remove them from the game, if you are making them completely useless outside of making the 1st set of other flowers...
There's a fourth option if you play single player or it's your server. When decay was added, a config option to disable it was also added. So you can get all the new goodies added to the mod by updating without having to deal with decay.
The latest versions remove the config option because it was being configured not to decay at all.
Well that is plain stupid to me. If you were playing a Botania centered pack where it's the main mod, I could understand. But in packs like infinity where it's just one of many mods, I have enough other stuff going on that dealing with decaying flowers for the few things I need mana for is a problem. Guess I just won't bother going any farther with the mod. I really liked it alot, but that's enough to make me not even care to use it.
It's still there in the recommended version of Infinity, but not sure how far behind that version of Botania is from the newest.
Ok then. I see we have irreconcilable differences.
For myself, no other mod forces me to advance past Tier 1, if Tier 1 is all I am interested in.
So the overwhelming 'vote by config' is that decay is a mechanic that no one wants.
Meaning the pro-decay camp is a vocal forum minority.
And yet - the response is to remove the config option?
Wait, this isn't a bug? I just spawned back my flowers creatively because I was getting really annoyed that they kept disappearing...
Did you even read the blog post linked by Texaporta? Vazkii explains that she intends for Botania to be played by people such as myself that enjoy the challenge of automating things like the active generating flowers, and that she would rather let the people who do not enjoy doing so use some other mod.
The main reason for removing the config, as I understand it, was to encourage the people who do like automation but hadn't discovered and/or bothered with the more interesting flowers yet to use (and automate) them.
It was a foolish ham fisted method of balancing the mod. I say this whilst being one of those players who actually doesn't use passives past the first hour of tinkering with Botania. I usualy only use enough to make my first endoflame.
I actually agree with he withering mechanic though, but 2 mc days is the epitome of stingy the absolute minimum imo should be an in game week. Vas should have kept the config but prevented the -1 option. Or make difficulty levels; 2 days for hardcore 7 for normal and 30 for pussycore. And technically you don't even get a days worth of generation with the daybloom/nightshade as they stop at the oposite time of the day. So they only give you a day and a bit of mana. If you make 4 you might have enough mana for an endoflame after those 2 days.
I agree with withering but 2 days is way to stingy and relegated them to the status of Botanias wooden pickaxe. Only need them very briefly only to ignore them.
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I actually agree with he withering mechanic though, but 2 mc days is the epitome of stingy the absolute minimum imo should be an in game week. Vas should have kept the config but prevented the -1 option. Or make difficulty levels; 2 days for hardcore 7 for normal and 30 for pussycore. And technically you don't even get a days worth of generation with the daybloom/nightshade as they stop at the oposite time of the day. So they only give you a day and a bit of mana. If you make 4 you might have enough mana for an endoflame after those 2 days.
I agree with withering but 2 days is way to stingy and relegated them to the status of Botanias wooden pickaxe. Only need them very briefly only to ignore them.
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So,
* Because I am content to let a small mana pool in the corner of my base tick over so I can make the occasional mana steel,
* Because I don't care for any of the botania automation I've seen as it all involves redstone and moving parts that detract entirely from the theme of flowers and nature
Its OK for Vazkii - because they are the mods author - to break my stuff - and take away the config option I might use if I am perfectly content to not invest more in their mod right now?
I don't have words...
I'm liking the new botania wither mechanic and how vazki handled it. There are some re-balancing that could be made based on it though of course. Right now day blooms, and hydrangeas work pretty well in the with the new mechanic. Nightshades on the other hand kinda got the shaft. With a day bloom a keeping it day as much as possible will give you the best mana returns. Though picking up the flowers near night has similar returns, it kinda defeats the purpose of being a leave it and forget it mana gen. Hydrangeas are now the server friendly withering flower. As night and day don't matter. Nightshades though don't really have a easy time being the superior passive mana generator. Except in extremely rare cases you won't find a permanent night situation, or where someone keeps it night through a in game mechanic.
I also don't think that their withering makes them completely useless. Time will tell for that though. I guess. I do like that the motif flower version were added for those that are just wanting to decorate. Still need to try them out though. Been collecting flowers from quest rewards for just that purpose though.
Before the withering mechanic was added I ran my entire botania setup off of passive flowers. I was using hydrangeas mainly as my flower of choice. The mod didn't require any thinking of me. I just make a bunch of hydrangea towers and let them fill the mana pools. Now that the withering is in there if I want to have a leave it and forget it mana generation system I have to put a lot of thinking into. I actually have to learn how minecraft works to get it up and running well.
All the naysayers that are talking bad about vazki and botania seem to be alright. They are airing there opinions. They aren't being dicks for the most part. They are just stating what they think. Which is fine. Everyone needs to remember though this isn't your mod. This isn't your game. If you want to truly play a game your way go play make believe. If you play this game and this mod though you aren't playing with yourself and by your own rules in your own vision of things. You are playing in someone elses vision altogether. Doesn't mean you can't proceed your own way based on the rules presented. Just means you are taking parts in someones elses make believe.
(really started this to put down me opinion on the current state of things. That last paragraph didn't go at all as intended. Was supposed to be more a calling out then acceptance thing. Dang thoughts changing direction mid gallop and such.)
I also don't think that their withering makes them completely useless. Time will tell for that though. I guess. I do like that the motif flower version were added for those that are just wanting to decorate. Still need to try them out though. Been collecting flowers from quest rewards for just that purpose though.
Before the withering mechanic was added I ran my entire botania setup off of passive flowers. I was using hydrangeas mainly as my flower of choice. The mod didn't require any thinking of me. I just make a bunch of hydrangea towers and let them fill the mana pools. Now that the withering is in there if I want to have a leave it and forget it mana generation system I have to put a lot of thinking into. I actually have to learn how minecraft works to get it up and running well.
All the naysayers that are talking bad about vazki and botania seem to be alright. They are airing there opinions. They aren't being dicks for the most part. They are just stating what they think. Which is fine. Everyone needs to remember though this isn't your mod. This isn't your game. If you want to truly play a game your way go play make believe. If you play this game and this mod though you aren't playing with yourself and by your own rules in your own vision of things. You are playing in someone elses vision altogether. Doesn't mean you can't proceed your own way based on the rules presented. Just means you are taking parts in someones elses make believe.
(really started this to put down me opinion on the current state of things. That last paragraph didn't go at all as intended. Was supposed to be more a calling out then acceptance thing. Dang thoughts changing direction mid gallop and such.)
Would you rather Vazkii taken the other approach? Removed all the generating flora EXCEPT for the passives? As it seems every other person I come across talking about botania seems to want endless passives back. As it stood, it's a case of effort vs conveinece. Passives, without withering, are far in away much simpler to set up, to the point where people used solely hydrogea towers for their mana, with no intention of at least trying non-passive flowers, as hey, I've got 1000 hydros and have more mana than I could ever need, I don't need other flowers. (Yes I am possibly exaggerting here) I'm sure that would have caused even more uproar.
DeathofTime makes alot of good points. This also reminds me slightly of AE2's introduction of channels and the vocal backlash against them, simply due to them being more effort, and requiring thought. (Personally I prefer channnels, although there are parts of AE2 I'm not so fond of.) With Passives, Particually hydrogeanas, being the end-all-be-all of mana, the biggest thought you had with botania is automating mana infusions, the functonal flowers, such as the clayconia and pure daisy, which are often nowhere near as complex to automate (especially without restricting yourself to Vanilla + Botania), the Terrestrial Allogamtion plate and runic alter, which are fair challenges, and two I'm probibly going to take on sooner or later.
DeathofTime makes alot of good points. This also reminds me slightly of AE2's introduction of channels and the vocal backlash against them, simply due to them being more effort, and requiring thought. (Personally I prefer channnels, although there are parts of AE2 I'm not so fond of.) With Passives, Particually hydrogeanas, being the end-all-be-all of mana, the biggest thought you had with botania is automating mana infusions, the functonal flowers, such as the clayconia and pure daisy, which are often nowhere near as complex to automate (especially without restricting yourself to Vanilla + Botania), the Terrestrial Allogamtion plate and runic alter, which are fair challenges, and two I'm probibly going to take on sooner or later.
A bunch of things could have been done to make passive flowers more inconvenient for mass mana generation.
Requiring a clear view of the sky would prevent hydrangea stacks.
Getting them to use sugar cane semantics and require water directly adjacent to their root level would make them a damn sight more attractive, as well as more inconvenient to stack. (Same applies to the lava eating flowers - root level please!)
That is all, because all the "I have too much mana to move from passive flowers" really seems to revolve around hydrangea stacks.
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PS. Someone from the 'i love to automate botania' camp please post some screenshots of a build where flowers are automated, but the flower is on the surface, and the automation is hidden underground. The 3x3 area around the flower should be flat grass.
Requiring a clear view of the sky would prevent hydrangea stacks.
Getting them to use sugar cane semantics and require water directly adjacent to their root level would make them a damn sight more attractive, as well as more inconvenient to stack. (Same applies to the lava eating flowers - root level please!)
That is all, because all the "I have too much mana to move from passive flowers" really seems to revolve around hydrangea stacks.
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PS. Someone from the 'i love to automate botania' camp please post some screenshots of a build where flowers are automated, but the flower is on the surface, and the automation is hidden underground. The 3x3 area around the flower should be flat grass.
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I hate automating stuff, so no screenies, sorry.
But just because I hate something, doesn't mean I want it gone.
Imagine how quick Thaumcraft would be to get the end game stuff if you didn't have to scan (which I believe SHOULD go) and research stuff (which SHOULD stay)
As for the hyrdos. I agree on the "root level" (level above the water) as it would look a damn sight nicer. However, it wouldn't have balanced them in any way, shape, or form. And hydros aren't meant to see the sky, although I get where you are coming from, I don't think that is a change people would take kindly to either.
Dayblooms and nightshades are supposed to be the only 2, to my knowledge, that require a sky view. After that you are free to have all your flowers hidden underground.
Back when Botania first came out, unless I am mistaken, you could have dayblooms (I will just use the one) next to each other and they would still generate the same amount of mana. However, people abused that, and spammed them. So vazkii nerfed them, by saying they couldn't be next to each other. Did that dissuade people? No. So she lowered how much mana they gave. People still used them, but used more of them.
After nerfing, and nerfing, trying to get people to stop using them* she probably just said "the easiest way to stop their use would be to remove them" and came to the conclusion that withering was the only option.
*She wanted people to stop using them as she got multiple "bug reports" complaining that they (the people using the mod) couldn't do X with passives. Or that they weren't making enough mana with passives. Or some saying things like "I have 100 dayblooms, but it still takes ages to create enough mana to Z"
Nightshades, last I checked, don't even need the sky. They should work just fine underground.
Anyway, the problem is that most people will go to a lot of work to avoid doing work. Automation underground with nothing visible but the flower? Entropinnium. TNT underground, behind obsidian or some other blast proof material. It'll eat it without issue and still be invisible above it.
As for Thaumcraft scanning? It's a lot better than the old method which was dump stack upon stack of expensive things in for destruction and pray you get a research.
Anyway, the problem is that most people will go to a lot of work to avoid doing work. Automation underground with nothing visible but the flower? Entropinnium. TNT underground, behind obsidian or some other blast proof material. It'll eat it without issue and still be invisible above it.
As for Thaumcraft scanning? It's a lot better than the old method which was dump stack upon stack of expensive things in for destruction and pray you get a research.
Sorry if I have a problem with detonating tnt as a means of feeding flowers. I guess a lot of my issue with this is, Vazkii is forcing me to consider the flowers I consider too stupid to use. Like, in ExU I don't make potion generators or pink generators. In botania I don't want to make things that are quite obviously not actually flowers. This leaves me with a small set of flowers I consider sensible enough to use. And so when that set is further reduced, I get ... angry. I'd use the Entropinium if it was the block machine that its mechanics imply it is.