The Final Word on Steam Boiler Efficiency

  • The FTB Forum is now read-only, and is here as an archive. To participate in our community discussions, please join our Discord! https://ftb.team/discord

Badger

New Member
Jul 29, 2019
86
0
0
I figure massive numbers of LP boilers is a bit akin to the old BC model of ranks of redstone engines. Yes, it works, yes, it's efficient, but who wants that trash? Consolidating massive supply delivery systems, reducing lag and dps drop, keeping a single input/output to reduce unneccessary complication, as well as the sheer coolness factor of not having an octopoid mass of pipes in a huge area and having a gigantic boiler to supply power.

I did, however, appreciate the huge warm up costs paying for much higher long-term efficiency, though... I don't think altering that dynamic to more closely match other mod power systems is a great idea, considering the built-in vanilla nerfs. Is there any possibility that a config option could be included to allow the old, high-efficiency, high-warmup versions to be used?
 

MigukNamja

New Member
Jul 29, 2019
2,202
0
0
I wouldn't call 2x LP per 1x HP "massive" per se.

As for pipes and stuff, it's ironic that 36LPs actually *reduced* my pipes. 9x TE3 Steam Dynamos at 80 RF/t (8 MJ/t) or 9x Industrial Steam Engines (ISEs) at the same steam-to-power ratio fit perfectly directly on top of the 36LP with no need for pipes.

However, I wanted steam pipes between my boilers and dynamos so I could use the excess steam for other things, so placed a 3x3 grid of fluiducts directly between the top of the 36LP and the 3x3 grid of Steam Dynamos.

18x dynamos/engines per boiler is awkward, but 9x is perfect. So far, I have 12x 36LP boilers and will add more when I get my juice production up. I have saplings coming out of my arse still.

I don't need that much power, no, but it's an interesting project to see how much power I can get out of:

4x TC4 golem lumberjacks
4x TC4 golem gatherers
1x TC4 golem planter (the 'Use' golem core)
1x 5x5x4 Forestry Multifarm in manual fruit-picking mode
 

MigukNamja

New Member
Jul 29, 2019
2,202
0
0
Is there any possibility that a config option could be included to allow the old, high-efficiency, high-warmup versions to be used?

No config for the warm-up and I believe HP in 8.3 will always have roughly a 25% penalty over LP, but you can change this to return Ethanol to its pre-Player, pre-nerf value for 36LP, at least. The defaults are:

Code:
        boiler {

            # 
            # adjust the heat value of BioFuel in a Boiler
            # 
            D:biofuelMultiplier=1.0

            # 
            # adjust the heat value of Fuel in a Boiler
            # 
            D:fuelMultiplier=1.0
        }

Change to 2.0 to return to RC 8.2 and prior Ethanol/biofuel and Fuel behavior.

But, if you like the way it was in RC 8.1, I highly recommend downgrading to RC 8.1 . Not much in the way of content or bugfixes that I know of in RC 8.2 and 8.3, aka the liquid fuel nerf and solid fuel nerf versions, respectively.
 

Omicron

New Member
Jul 29, 2019
2,974
0
0
Actually, those config settings are just for the HU value of MFR biofuel and Buildcraft fuel, respectively. They don't change the boilers directly.

The setting you're looking for is the one right below:

Code:
        ####################
        # steam
        ####################

        steam {
            #
            # adjust the amount of fuel used to create Steam, min=0.2, default=1.0, max=6.0
            #
            D:fuelPerSteamMultiplier=1.0
        }

This will control the general HU consumption rate of boilers, making uniformly more or less efficient for all possible fuel types, liquid or solid. If you set this value below 1, fuel efficiency increases across the board. As mentioned before, you cannot configure away the additional fuel penalty for high pressure boilers - that will remain. But if you set that config setting to something like 0.8, it's like it wasn't there at all (but still, LPs also get buffed and continue to remain more efficient).
 

ladderff

New Member
Jul 29, 2019
8
0
0
Fascinated by the thread.

Omicron could you be convinced to recreate the graphs in the OP for 8.3?

Either way thanks for something interesting to think about.
 

Omicron

New Member
Jul 29, 2019
2,974
0
0
At the time I started doing this, Forecaster's online calculator didn't really exist yet. Nowadays however that tool is so encompassing and powerful, it should tell you everything you need to know.

I could make another graph, but even with the assistance of the calculator, it still involves several pages worth of raw excel data to produce. And I'm currently way too addicted to my christmas present (see signature) :p Maybe at a future point in time.
 

ladderff

New Member
Jul 29, 2019
8
0
0
Ok, cool. I played with the calculator and it is indeed encompassing and powerful. My contribution to the thread will therefore be a table showing minimum burn fuel/time that it takes for each of the liquid boilers to beat the combustion engine in efficiency (i.e. MJ/HU) (obviously the smaller boilers will never get there). I should hopefully have it up tonight. Before I dive in though, can I ask exactly where the new value of 3.125 for combustion engine efficiency comes from? I was able to derive the old value (6.25) under the old numbers but having read the relevant posts several times I still don't see where 3.125 comes out. How much total MJ does a combustion engine now produce burning 1 bucket of fuel?
 

ladderff

New Member
Jul 29, 2019
8
0
0
Also, how does one calculate how much fuel it takes to keep a boiler hot when the steam is not being consumed? In heatup only mode, the calculator gives a result like
Fuel/h after heating up: 1.003125
This is the amount of fuel you must provide to keep the boiler from loosing heat.

but that is the same as the amount that the same running boiler would use while actually outputting steam. Anecdotally, I don't think the boiler uses as much fuel just staying hot as it does when it's actually exporting steam to engines/appliances.
 

ladderff

New Member
Jul 29, 2019
8
0
0
This post is about low-pressure boilers burning buildcraft fuel post-v8.3.

Here is the table that tells you how long a burn you need in order to beat 3.125 total MJ/HU (so, be more efficient than a combustion engine.) You will see in the graph why the data for the 36LP are lacking.

Code:
boiler  time    fuel    max eff.
1LP       never   n/a    2.99
8LP       7.77     58      3.20
12LP      4.31    46      3.33
18LP      3.37    51      3.55
27LP      2.9      58      3.95
36LP      notsure        4.44

Here is the graph. Left axis: MJ/HU, like in the second series of graphs in Omicron's original post. Right axis: fuel usage. This is included to remind people that 2 hours in a 36LP is much much more fuel than 2 hours in an 8LP, and therefore also much more MJ, which if you don't have a use for, is wasted. I assumed that fuel usage is still linear w.r.t. time during heatup; if that was an error please let me know.
out4.png

You will note the kink in the 36LP efficiency graph. This was a kludge made necessary by the fact that Forecaster's calculator (thanks to Forecaster for a neat tool) will not tell you how much MJ is produced if the boiler does not finish heatup. I noticed that the other curves intersect so I drew a line right to the intersection to complete the 36LP efficiency curve. The other curves begin when heatup is finished and are so inefficient before that point that I didn't investigate any further. (That was a result of my error. New 36LP curve in attached graph. All the efficiency curves start when heatup is finished.)

For all boilers except the 36LP this is not a big deal because when heatup is over efficiency is still low. So surprisingly this implies that only the 36LP boiler is efficient before it's done heating up, that it reaches efficiency (which I define here as "better than a combustion engine") before any other engine. If I interpret this correctly, the 36LP would always be the dominant choice—if you had something to which to apply its enormous power output.

The intersection of the efficiency curves means that for any burn time over 2 hours and 26 minutes, the larger the boiler, the more efficient it gets, faster. This is so pronounced that, contrary to my expectations, you're better off burning 58 buckets of fuel in a 27LP than an 8LP; you'll burn it faster and more efficiently (cf. the table at the top of the post). I could do another graph with fuel on the x-axis to see which boiler size should be used for a given amount of fuel, but it looks like for anything higher than 46 buckets, the answer is just, 36LP (and for anything lower than that the answer is, combustion engines). (Wrong; see post #254 for how this all shakes out.)

I didn't investigate the HP boilers at all so... I will if there is demand but if someone who knows the math well can tell me that that is a waste of time, tell me. Thanks.

I'm satisfied this is enough information to choose a boiler, with one missing piece: does the boiler really consume just as much fuel just staying hot as it does when it is being harnessed?
 

Attachments

  • out4.png
    out4.png
    15.5 KB · Views: 97
Last edited:

Forecaster

New Member
Jul 29, 2019
20
0
0
Also, how does one calculate how much fuel it takes to keep a boiler hot when the steam is not being consumed? In heatup only mode, the calculator gives a result like


but that is the same as the amount that the same running boiler would use while actually outputting steam. Anecdotally, I don't think the boiler uses as much fuel just staying hot as it does when it's actually exporting steam to engines/appliances.
Steam output does not affect anything. The boiler doesn't care if the steam is being used or not.

Fuel usage is tied to temperature and size. (RC 8.3+)

Also, at one point I was looking into having the calculator graph the calculated data.

I was looking into 3rd party services that would do that sort of thing but couldn't find one simple enough that I could figure out quickly so I dropped it eventually.

If someone knows an easy way of drawing graphs on a website I'd love to know!
 
Last edited:

Forecaster

New Member
Jul 29, 2019
20
0
0
Just a quick question for this thread: Would 36 X 1LP boilers be more efficient than 1big one?
Only in the sense that you can easily scale up or down depending on your need.

If all of them are run at once they would use the same amount of fuel and produce the same amount of steam as if they were combined.

As I said earlier, it is only concerned with the temperature and size. The size being the amount of tanks. It doesn't matter if the tanks are in separate boilers, the sum is the same.

Edit: Read down.
 
Last edited:

TheAwesomater

New Member
Jul 29, 2019
243
0
0
Forecaster said:
Only in the sense that you can easily scale up or down depending on your need.

If all of them are run at once they would use the same amount of fuel and produce the same amount of steam as if they were combined.

As I said earlier, it is only concerned with the temperature and size. The size being the amount of tanks. It doesn't matter if the tanks are in separate boilers, the sum is the same.

OK, thanks for the info. Nw to design an anticipative power supply system ...
 

ladderff

New Member
Jul 29, 2019
8
0
0
If all of them are run at once they would use the same amount of fuel and produce the same amount of steam as if they were combined.

As I said earlier, it is only concerned with the temperature and size. The size being the amount of tanks. It doesn't matter if the tanks are in separate boilers, the sum is the same.

Have to disagree. The following is based solely on Forecaster's calculator:

Burning 180 buckets of fuel in a 36LP yields 38632282 MJ.
Burning 180 buckets of fuel in a 1LP yields: 25839307 MJ.


If my method used above doesn't have any mistakes in it, the 36 LP starts beating combustion engines after 64 buckets and starts beating other boilers after approximately 73 buckets.
The major caveat is that you actually need to be able to use those MJ within two and a half hours (a rate of approx 72 MJ/t), or you're gonna waste a lot of fuel.

Here is another table which I made by inspecting the attached graph. out4fuel.png

Fuel to be burned
boiler to use
<46 combustion engine
>46 12 LP
>53 18 LP
>67 27 LP
>73 36LP

So here is my grand finale:
*Last value is based on eyeballing the curve since I don't have a complete curve for 36LP. (Full curve for 36LP included. Each curve begins when the heatup phase finishes and the boiler reaches 500°)

*Note that the 1LP and 8LP don't even show up. If you are trying to get the most for your fuel you'll never use those boilers, not for liquids anyway.

*In fact I'd rule out the 12 and 18 too since they are only your best bet for a narrow range of fuel use (46-67), and they can be replaced with a mere 4 or 6 combustion engines, a very manageable number.

*The 27 LP is in its glory for burns between 67 and 73 buckets, a small range but a more manageable power output (54 MJ/t) than your 36LP, good for those of us who wouldn't know what to do with 72 MJ/t but still a big improvement long term over combustion engines.

*The 36 LP: if you know you can use 72 MJ/t for about a three-hour stint, then this is the clear winner, and for anything longer it really starts to spank the 27 LP in terms of what you get for your fuel.
 
Last edited:

Forecaster

New Member
Jul 29, 2019
20
0
0
Yes you are right.
The fuel usage of a fully heated 1LP boiler run for exactly 24 hours is 682.560 fuel units.
For an 8LP boiler it's 622.080 fuel units.

There's a 60.480 fuel unit difference.

Running 8 1LP boiler in tandem would cost 5.460.480 fuel units, while the 8LP still only cost 622.080 fuel units, yelding a 4.838.400 loss in fuel units.

The 8 1LP boilers would however produce the same amount of steam as the single 8LP boiler during this time.

This of course is because of the various modifiers that are applied in the fuel calculation that offset the difference in size a lot more than I thought apparently.
 

ladderff

New Member
Jul 29, 2019
8
0
0
Forecaster I don't know anything about how you're serving the calculator but I generated my graphs by querying your site and using [gnuplot](http://www.gnuplot.info/). This can be completely automated and the resulting .png graph is quite small, <15k. If you like I can share what I've done with you, or you can tell me what you had in mind for the kind of graphs you wanted to serve.
 

Forecaster

New Member
Jul 29, 2019
20
0
0
All my websites (by extension the calculator) run on my private LAMP server.

Gnuplot looks very interesting! I'll have a look at it soon!
 

Forecaster

New Member
Jul 29, 2019
20
0
0
Forecaster I don't know anything about how you're serving the calculator but I generated my graphs by querying your site and using [gnuplot](http://www.gnuplot.info/). This can be completely automated and the resulting .png graph is quite small, <15k. If you like I can share what I've done with you, or you can tell me what you had in mind for the kind of graphs you wanted to serve.
It'd be great if you showed me what you used to generate those graphs. Will probably make it easier to get the system figured out.

Tried installing it onto the server but it seems the most recent package depends on a higher version of ubuntu.

Will look into installing it manually sometime tomorrow probably.

Edit: Found a package that installed. Now trying to figure out how the program works, so far hasn't been able to get it to print a graph to a file.
 
Last edited:

ladderff

New Member
Jul 29, 2019
8
0
0
The way gnuplot works is you feed it a script full of instructions for how you want the data to appear. The plot command tells it what function to plot; in this case I told it to plot data in a text file that I generated by querying your calculator.

I'm attaching the instructions I fed to gnuplot along with one of the data files I generated using your calculator. What I think you'd have to do is make a script to generate that file based on the user's parameters. I'm away snowboarding until Monday but I'd be happy to collaborate on this further.
 

Attachments

  • 36___.txt
    2.1 KB · Views: 101
  • gnuplot_instructions.txt
    1.1 KB · Views: 113

Forecaster

New Member
Jul 29, 2019
20
0
0
The way gnuplot works is you feed it a script full of instructions for how you want the data to appear. The plot command tells it what function to plot; in this case I told it to plot data in a text file that I generated by querying your calculator.

I'm attaching the instructions I fed to gnuplot along with one of the data files I generated using your calculator. What I think you'd have to do is make a script to generate that file based on the user's parameters. I'm away snowboarding until Monday but I'd be happy to collaborate on this further.
I've so far tried feeding it example scripts, but it's only generated zero byte images so far. With no output indicating any errors.

I will give your files a look and see if I can make sense of it.