Should ftb be... harder?

[zorn]

Although with greg tech things get tougher, many things are still super strong. Do server operators have to nerf things individually, or does the FTB team try to do such things when they release a pack?

The problem is that server operators, if they play, are never going to be unbiased. My friend loved that solars were nerfed in gregtech because in our last world I had made 90 hv solars, but quarries with landmarks are still stupidly strong. Lava from the nether, also strong. MFR tree farms... infinite charcoal in just a day or two of playing. EE2 minium stones allow tesseracts much easier than the guy who made TE intended, i think. 4 iron for an ender pearl? And the blaze rod exploit is also silly.

It seems these things were supposed to be very expensive. We have been playing, even with gregtech installed, for two weeks and my friend who runs the server has two quarries going, 10 MFSUs (thanks to RP making rubes and sapphires abundant, gregtech recipes now make energy and lapotron crystals stupidly cheap) and thousands of each type of ore ingot... in just two weeks.

The funny part is that in our last world, i made 90 hv solars, and that much power with a mass fab is just silly. My friend liked that solars were nerfed by gregtech because they were 'an exploit'. He pumps lava from the nether and runs two quarries, and considers it balanced.

Does the FTB team look at balance at all, or is it left up to the server operator? What if FTB were released in 'easy, normal, or hard' variants? Easy might have increased ore production for new players, hard mode could be ... no land marks, some sort of MFR nerf on harvesters and planters (the upgrades make these stupidly fast) and some sort of EE2 nerf? Or is this impossible?

In my years of gaming, ive found that players are usually VERY bad at balancing games, if the FTB team released versions like this, it would allow competetive players to not just gravitate to the easiest methods. How can i build a lapotron crystal with my diamonds, when I have hundreds of sapphires collecting dust? Only the very dedicated or masochistic players would do this when the option is right there in front of them. if the recipe were disabled, I would still pick this pack to play, but not be tempted in game to use the cheaper recipe.

thoughts?

edit: side question: crafted the advanced nano chest plate but i cant fly. I cannot find anything online about it, anywhere. Anyone know how this works? is it from gregtech? I assuemed so, but there is nothing online about it on gregtech wikis.

 

[dgdas9]

Sometime ago, greg made a version of his mod where you need Iridium for everything!Go get it!Now!(It was for 1.5)

 

[PoisonWolf]

Gauging difficulty is hard because it implies that there is an "end-goal". Difficulty for the sake of difficulty borders on turning the game into a redundant and lower grade definition of a game that exists already, real life.

 

[Grydian2]

In the newest version of gregtech the quarry has been made much more expensive. Maybe you should talk him into updating to the latest version of stuff... On a side note with 44 mining turtles I was able in about 3-4 days get 15k iron 10k gold tons of diamonds etc... So it may just be impossible to force everyone on the same progression.

 

[Symmetryc]

Yeah, in my opinion some things are really easy to do, but the thing is that in modded Minecraft, the standard for what is supposed to be hard to get and what is supposed to be easy to get has been lowered. It's just a different way to play were rather than going for a beacon in Vanilla Minecraft with your enchanted diamond pick, you are going for a Holy Plank of Sengir in FTB with your Gravitational Suit.

 

[casilleroatr]

edit: side question: crafted the advanced nano chest plate but i cant fly. I cannot find anything online about it, anywhere. Anyone know how this works? is it from gregtech? I assuemed so, but there is nothing online about it on gregtech wikis.

Isn't flying a terrible exploit? Have you turned the jetpack on? It is toggled by pressing the f key. It isn't gregtech, it is from the the gravisuite IC2 addon here is the link

http://forum.industrial-craft.net/index.php?page=Thread&threadID=6915

 

[DoctorOr]

Although with greg tech things get tougher, many things are still super strong. Do server operators have to nerf things individually, or does the FTB team try to do such things when they release a pack?

The base FTB packs are designed for challenge maps, not for servers. (This is as true for Mindcrack and DW20 as it is for Ultimate - nobody tuned any of those packs) As such, they are already broken as configured for servers, rife with griefing potential, resource dupes, and single "right ways" to do almost anything.

So yes, operators have to edit those configs. Nobody else has.

Does the FTB team look at balance at all

Not a single bit.

In my years of gaming, ive found that players are usually VERY bad at balancing games

"'It is not exactly hard to make mods 'better' in the views of the player. All you have to do is give them more stuff for less.''

 

[Loufmier]

so the only way for people to keep playing is to move further into tech tree? when people are done with it, they get bored and quit?
in order to keep those people playing the increased time investment into tech tree, before its completion is required. since adding appropriate content isnt an option(hello lack of mv producers...), the only option for achieving such is addition of resource investment aka time sinks or tedium(hello gt).

so if time sinks=hard, i have a bad news about your creativity, because you cannot create a goal for yourself(which is survival mc is all about) to utilize all resources you`ve gathered, and instead you want someone to create a goal for you, by asking more time sinks.

somehow i dont feel like its a good situation...

 

[Hyperme]

Step 0: Define 'hard'.

Seriously do this before talking about balance/difficulty/marmots because in Minecraft 'hard' varies between players. Remember, some people liked their EE2 Red Matter farms.

Also, nerfing is not the only way to balance. Sometimes things need buffing.

 

[namiasdf]

It's difficult if you make it difficult, it's easy if you make it easy.

Limit yourself to solar, spend the time to perfect your systems and stick with that plan. I've spent enormous and stupid amounts of time perfecting my lava->EU source. It doesn't exactly give that much returns either. The fun I find is creating the automation and ensuring that input = output. Especially now with an AE system, memory is an issue. I don't want to waste quartz building storage units to store things I don't need, so finding a way to get rid of a lot of that stuff is important.

Also, where is the fun in building 5000 generators off of the infinite coal. Building 10 lightning rods and calling it a day for energy for the rest of your FTB career.

Seems... Boring?

 

[Redweevil]

Although with greg tech things get tougher, many things are still super strong. Do server operators have to nerf things individually, or does the FTB team try to do such things when they release a pack?

The problem is that server operators, if they play, are never going to be unbiased. My friend loved that solars were nerfed in gregtech because in our last world I had made 90 hv solars, but quarries with landmarks are still stupidly strong. Lava from the nether, also strong. MFR tree farms... infinite charcoal in just a day or two of playing. EE2 minium stones allow tesseracts much easier than the guy who made TE intended, i think. 4 iron for an ender pearl? And the blaze rod exploit is also silly.

It seems these things were supposed to be very expensive. We have been playing, even with gregtech installed, for two weeks and my friend who runs the server has two quarries going, 10 MFSUs (thanks to RP making rubes and sapphires abundant, gregtech recipes now make energy and lapotron crystals stupidly cheap) and thousands of each type of ore ingot... in just two weeks.

The funny part is that in our last world, i made 90 hv solars, and that much power with a mass fab is just silly. My friend liked that solars were nerfed by gregtech because they were 'an exploit'. He pumps lava from the nether and runs two quarries, and considers it balanced.

Does the FTB team look at balance at all, or is it left up to the server operator? What if FTB were released in 'easy, normal, or hard' variants? Easy might have increased ore production for new players, hard mode could be ... no land marks, some sort of MFR nerf on harvesters and planters (the upgrades make these stupidly fast) and some sort of EE2 nerf? Or is this impossible?

In my years of gaming, ive found that players are usually VERY bad at balancing games, if the FTB team released versions like this, it would allow competetive players to not just gravitate to the easiest methods. How can i build a lapotron crystal with my diamonds, when I have hundreds of sapphires collecting dust? Only the very dedicated or masochistic players would do this when the option is right there in front of them. if the recipe were disabled, I would still pick this pack to play, but not be tempted in game to use the cheaper recipe.

thoughts?

edit: side question: crafted the advanced nano chest plate but i cant fly. I cannot find anything online about it, anywhere. Anyone know how this works? is it from gregtech? I assuemed so, but there is nothing online about it on gregtech wikis.

In the case of the blaze rods and the red power gems, those are both exploits and aren't meant to work that way. I dont really think difficulty matters. You can have tons and tons of resources but what are you going to use it for? Alternately you give everything an extreme recipe and no one tries to be creative?

 

[Loufmier]

In the case of the blaze rods and the red power gems, those are both exploits and aren't meant to work that way.

i`m pretty sure greg would blocked rp gems in ic2 recipes if he viewed them as an exploit, which they arnt.

 

[zorn]

Gauging difficulty is hard because it implies that there is an "end-goal". Difficulty for the sake of difficulty borders on turning the game into a redundant and lower grade definition of a game that exists already, real life.

My point was to give a reason to use the lower and medium power items. Im a pretty slow and cautious player early on, i hate dying even once, and im rolling in ores... without using a quarry. Im going to make forestry stuff for fuels and energy for the fun of it, but only because i want to build it. People naturally get a bit competitive, which is why you see everyone using steam boilers: very strong for their cost.

Isn't flying a terrible exploit? Have you turned the jetpack on? It is toggled by pressing the f key. It isn't gregtech, it is from the the gravisuite IC2 addon here is the link

http://forum.industrial-craft.net/index.php?page=Thread&threadID=6915

Thanks ill check it out. Flying is... a valuable ability. It should cost some resources to be able to fly. Without lava from the nether or infinite charcoal, id probably be a bit more careful with recharging my jetpack. As it is, i dont even think about energy at all... just a week into playing. My theory is that people play survival for a reason, the closer you get to creative mode, the more boring it gets for those of us who enjoy survival. So if you can get a quantum suit and 100 hv or advanced or whatever solars in a week of playing, people will get bored soon after. Its the struggle for getting there that makes the journey enjoyable.

In the newest version of gregtech the quarry has been made much more expensive. Maybe you should talk him into updating to the latest version of stuff... On a side note with 44 mining turtles I was able in about 3-4 days get 15k iron 10k gold tons of diamonds etc... So it may just be impossible to force everyone on the same progression.

We do have the expensive quarries. Admittedly i think mining by hand is the most boring thing in the world. Mining turtles are argued to be too strong on computercraft.info also. using the basing excavate they arent, but programming them makes them comparable to quarries. Why not make a turtle cost a stack of iron? The problem is that once you get even one turtle mining, things escalate FAST. Just one run iwht a turtle lets you build many more right away.

so the only way for people to keep playing is to move further into tech tree? when people are done with it, they get bored and quit?
in order to keep those people playing the increased time investment into tech tree, before its completion is required. since adding appropriate content isnt an option(hello lack of mv producers...), the only option for achieving such is addition of resource investment aka time sinks or tedium(hello gt).

so if time sinks=hard, i have a bad news about your creativity, because you cannot create a goal for yourself(which is survival mc is all about) to utilize all resources you`ve gathered, and instead you want someone to create a goal for you, by asking more time sinks.

somehow i dont feel like its a good situation...

I cant say i like gregtech's idea of just making more hurdles to build something, and spending 10 minutes at a crafting table just to build one item. I like the hv solar idea: to get a really strong item, you have to spend thousands of resources.

If you think its silly to just create hurdles for yourself... how is direwolf not doing the same thing, when he said in season 5 that he didnt want to use lava from the nether, or solar panels? Because its too easy, he is *making his own hurdles* to make things more fun for himself. I thought i was doing this by avoiding laval form the nether, and going for charcoal, but the amount of charcoal is just so great from an MFR tree farm, that its basically just as bad.

 

[KirinDave]

Although with greg tech things get tougher, many things are still super strong. Do server operators have to nerf things individually, or does the FTB team try to do such things when they release a pack?

The problem is that server operators, if they play, are never going to be unbiased. My friend loved that solars were nerfed in gregtech because in our last world I had made 90 hv solars, but quarries with landmarks are still stupidly strong. Lava from the nether, also strong. MFR tree farms... infinite charcoal in just a day or two of playing. EE2 minium stones allow tesseracts much easier than the guy who made TE intended, i think. 4 iron for an ender pearl? And the blaze rod exploit is also silly.

It seems these things were supposed to be very expensive. We have been playing, even with gregtech installed, for two weeks and my friend who runs the server has two quarries going, 10 MFSUs (thanks to RP making rubes and sapphires abundant, gregtech recipes now make energy and lapotron crystals stupidly cheap) and thousands of each type of ore ingot... in just two weeks.

Two things about this.

1. Quarries are weak compared to some of the stuff you can actually do in 1.4.7 Ult or 1.5.2bwgt. They're just convenient.
2. If all you want is the "Most Stuff" then go creative. That cannot be the point of a long term enjoyable minecraft experience. You can start to automate things, or build pretty warehouses, or collect all the bees, or make a castle, or whatever. But at the end of the day the only sustainably fun experience is one where you set goals (however arbitrary), then meet them and set new ones. Lots of people get locked onto GT or Bee treadmills as if the progression there is the game. But this couldn't be further from the truth. I hear people say, "Well I built a fusion reactor. I guess it's time to reset the map." To me, this is a bummer! This should be the time where you say, "Cool! Now I can use this power to make that crazy _______ I dreamt about! I dunno if you CAN build that, but now is the time to try."

 

[Loufmier]

If you think its silly to just create hurdles for yourself... how is direwolf not doing the same thing, when he said in season 5 that he didnt want to use lava from the nether, or solar panels? Because its too easy, he is *making his own hurdles* to make things more fun for himself. I thought i was doing this by avoiding laval form the nether, and going for charcoal, but the amount of charcoal is just so great from an MFR tree farm, that its basically just as bad.

i`m not quite sure if you agree with my post or not...

They do make it a ton of a lot easier. GT gems are pretty rare, unlike RP2 gems which I come home with a stack of each on every mining trip. Chrome chrome chrome!

while such cross-mod interaction makes resource gathering a bit easier, i wouldnt call it an exploit.
ee2/3 blazerod maceration is an example of cross-mod interaction that causes exploit.[DOUBLEPOST=1373304854][/DOUBLEPOST]

To me, this is a bummer! This should be the time where you say, "Cool! Now I can use this power to make that crazy _______ I dreamt about! I dunno if you CAN build that, but now is the time to try."

that`s the problem with gt that i personally have: increasing power to feed that one block feels more like a goal than a tool, because of how much investments it requires.

 

[zorn]

Two things about this.

1. Quarries are weak compared to some of the stuff you can actually do in 1.4.7 Ult or 1.5.2bwgt. They're just convenient.
2. If all you want is the "Most Stuff" then go creative. That cannot be the point of a long term enjoyable minecraft experience. You can start to automate things, or build pretty warehouses, or collect all the bees, or make a castle, or whatever. But at the end of the day the only sustainably fun experience is one where you set goals (however arbitrary), then meet them and set new ones. Lots of people get locked onto GT or Bee treadmills as if the progression there is the game. But this couldn't be further from the truth. I hear people say, "Well I built a fusion reactor. I guess it's time to reset the map." To me, this is a bummer! This should be the time where you say, "Cool! Now I can use this power to make that crazy _______ I dreamt about! I dunno if you CAN build that, but now is the time to try."

Like what, turtles? other than setup time, i think turtles are amazing. 4 turtles out run a quarry at comparable cost to the non-gregtech quarry, and use far less energy doing it.

I guess im saying the progression IS part of the fun.

 

[Redweevil]

i`m pretty sure greg would blocked rp gems in ic2 recipes if he viewed them as an exploit, which they arnt.

When people were starting to build 1.5 packs I decided to have a go. One of the suggested mods was something to disable/reduce the amount of gems spawned in the world. So yeah he viewed them as an exploit, they are far too common to be otherwise

 

[Loufmier]

When people were starting to build 1.5 packs I decided to have a go. One of the suggested mods was something to disable/reduce the amount of gems spawned in the world. So yeah he viewed them as an exploit, they are far too common to be otherwise

if he does view them as an exploit, then i can understand why his balancing is so fucked up. that guy simply doesnt know what exploit means...

 

[zorn]

the gems are definitely not 'balanced', you can have a few dozen diamonds mined up by hand and have a few hundred sapphires and rubies. obviously letting players use more common materials to build powerful items is not what greg intended.

side note: why couldnt someone just increase the cost of items, and not complexity like greg did? Can't a recipe just call for a stack of an item? Change a quarry to require 5 diamond picks and 20 iron gears, not 1 pick and 2 gears. No added tedium, but it makes it more of an investment. Longer time to mine up those resources, and harder to build a second or third quarry. Shouldnt a machine that does so much be pretty hard to build? There is a reason almost every single player uses them, other than people who get fancy like turtles and mining wells, etc.

the EE3 ideas are awesome... just not balanced. An enderpearl should be like 8 gold bars to make, not 4 iron. Or a diamond or something. I heard the guy doing EE3 made some new system that is supposed to figure out EMC values nomatter what mods you use to stop exploits, but it should be expensive to change things into other materials. Really, ender pearls go from super hard and rare to aquire, to super cheap and easy. That isn't the definition of an 'equivalent exchange', is it?

 

[dgdas9]

Me, the awesome detective discovered something...


Zorn=Greg


Just kidding