Reika's Update Checker

[SynfulChaot]

Right there I'm going to have to disagree with you. Forever. There's a reasonable grace period that I am perfectly willing to accept, but there are no excuses for running 19b a year later when 25z is both out and stated to be the final 1.6 update. None. In keybounce's cases? That's where you ask the mod author for support. Which he has done with CoG and RoC. That is what startup notification mods are for (I had one a while back, can't remember what it is called)

If you as pack maker can flip a switch that literally 100% permanently turns the update notification off for users? The update checker is no longer doing its originally stated purpose, its raison d'être, the whole reason it was made in the first place. That's precisely what FTB would have done for Monster, and that would not have stopped Monster from happening. I'm going to re-state. Always keep Monster in mind when talking about update checking in regards to Reika's mods. I pop in and catch up from time to time and even I am sick and tired of the complaints that you can't chain hydrokinetics, that magnetostatics don't work, that the tokamak doesn't exist, wondering why the tokamak won't work (it probably needs LN2, and they didn't even know it used to take lubricant), that bedrock can't be obtained with the borer anymore, etc. etc. etc. You can't fix stupid, but when 90% (probably more) of your "bug" reports are fixed by saying "You're using an old version, I fixed that bug 11 months ago"? There's a problem and it's not with the mod or its author.

The problem there is the pack, yes. But, as said pack isn't running the newest version, that kinda makes it so they're not supported, no? After all if you want the fixes to anything, anyways, you have to run the newest version. Anyone who expects old versions to have all the fixes or expects all modpacks to always run the newest versions are the ones at fault.

In addition you might note that I have stated multiple times including at least once in this thread that when a modpack goes unsupported that all those flags should be turned back on as from that point forward support is entirely on the users.

And yet again, it's not up to the mod author to determine what's too old. That is entirely up to the users. That being said, if they run anything older than the newest then they shouldn't be expecting, or receiving, support in any fashion.

I currently play and test/build a THREE HUNDRED PLUS MOD modpack. Don't talk to me about updates being a pain. I get 10 updates (on average) a DAY. Testing boot on server/client and downloading the updates takes less than 30 minutes (even if I wait and let half the pack update), and most of those are waiting for a full boot 4-or-so times. Checking for config changes is what file diff applications are for. If you're using a typical 100-150 mod pack, and it's taking an hour? You've got some pretty big inefficiencies in your process somewhere, or your testing computer is rather underwhelming. Testing for the major issues I look for takes maybe a half hour on top of that. Things like world generator ****ups from added biomes, etc. I use the time while booting up to look at the changelogs, and accept that something is probably going to get through. Striving for perfection is a waste of time, in my opinion.

If it takes you so little time then you're not as thorough. You call me inefficient? Perhaps by your methodology. I will state again that I do server and network support at an enterprise level professionally. I hold myself to a higher standard with how I test and verify as I do not want to adversely affect my users unless there is no other option. If you're taking so little time then you're taking risks I would find unacceptable.

It isn't striving for perfectionism but for adequacy. My method isn't perfect, but I doubt I'd find yours adequate.

It will come back repeatedly if the pack is abandoned. That is the POINT of this. Monster was abandoned and STILL causes regular headaches for Reika and his thread.

And I'll state again that the last update to any modpack should be to turn those damn notifications back on.

Nothing that stops/pauses the server boot will ever be acceptable unless it's for critical issues that will break your world, Reika is exactly right.

Of course, but I don't know how you think I wouldn't agree with that from my response.

Oh you know what screw it. I'm done with this disable argument! This will never be permanently disable-able. If that causes people to leave then THEY WERE THE PROBLEM. If you can actually bring up an issue with it like "Two weeks is too short a timeframe" then we might be able to go somewhere. As-is, that argument is a broken record. Please turn off the power to your turntable.

That is entirely up to Reika to include it or not, but if there isn't an option to do so then Reika must be aware that that will bar the mod from the vast majority of modpacks, even those by good maintainers. Few modpack makers will put up with such. That is a fact. And that's why I repeat myself. As long as he remains aware that it hinders uptake in modpacks then the purpose of me stating it worth it, even if you don't care to hear it.

Oh, and I can say the same on any 'broken record' response to my arguments. I see the same ones alot and lots of them have logical errors and oversights, including many of your own.

I will report people that bring up permanent disable as an issue from this point forth. I am being deadly serious here. A peace had been reached, and then this crap came back up. I'm regretting even commenting on a thread that I STARTED because my comment apparently provided fuel for this frankly asinine repetitive argument. If you have actual concerns that maybe the time is too short and can provide alternative timeframes with actual examples that aren't completely hypothetical? Bring them up, you're the kind of person that this thing needs. People that brought up actual issues are why this currently is supposed to not nag users every reboot (the implementation had flaws. That happens), why the notification is removable, and why I kept at this discussion instead of reporting it to the mods. I could see the merits of the other side. At this point people bringing up the "turn it off forever" argument are just inciting argument for the sake of argument, or haven't actually been paying attention.

Go ahead and abuse the report system. That's not what it's for and I'm doing nothing against any of the rules of this site by responding with a valid response, even if it's not one you consider valid. Maybe I should refresh your memory:

Perhaps more importantly, when not to use the Report button (i.e. you may actually get warnings yourself if you do these things repeatedly):

• When somebody disagrees with your view on the topic (we aren't the Point-of-view Police, and if they aren't violating the rules it isn't something we will address).

I should also add that there are merits do having it able to be disabled and that I have brought up 'actual' concerns and issues as well as given non-hypothetical situations. That you refuse to see such is more than a bit libellous and unkind. Please don't do that.

 

[trajing]

Look. We've come to a calm and reasoned compromise that everyone's happy with, now could we all please stop resurrecting an argument that won't lead anywhere?
Mods - I'd suggest locking this thread. There isn't really anything to be gained by letting this argument go on.

 

[Lethosos]

Before that happens, at least let me throw in a suggestion.

If a mod becomes the final version specifically for the MC version that it runs on, can we disable further notifications since there's no point for it at that point in its life cycle? (They would be turned back on for the new versions for the next MC version, of course.)

Sent from my SGH-T769 using Tapatalk 2

 

[trajing]

Before that happens, at least let me throw in a suggestion.

If a mod becomes the final version specifically for the MC version that it runs on, can we disable further notifications since there's no point for it at that point in its life cycle? (They would be turned back on for the new versions for the next MC version, of course.)

Sent from my SGH-T769 using Tapatalk 2

That's a given.
Also, I'll start a thread for the new version checker idea. One second.
EDIT: Thread made.

 

[Celestialphoenix]

And I'll state again that the last update to any modpack should be to turn those damn notifications back on.

Thats a very nice theoretical ideal, which sadly gets pushed out by human nature and not something that can be relied on.

When abandonment happens between updates, the last update would have been designed for continuing work- and not as the last update.
So with the exception of a conscious decision being made to discontinue a pack, the dev won't actually know its the last update, therefore notifications don't get turned on.

And since we can't predict the future; the rest of us don't know that its the last update until its too late.​

 

[SynfulChaot]

Thats a very nice theoretical ideal, which sadly gets pushed out by human nature and not something that can be relied on.

The unfortunate truth. >.<

When abandonment happens between updates, the last update would have been designed for continuing work- and not as the last update.
So with the exception of a conscious decision being made to discontinue a pack, the dev won't actually know its the last update, therefore notifications don't get turned on.

And since we can't predict the future; the rest of us don't know that its the last update until its too late.​

A modpack creator should have a version with the alerts turned on for themselves, no? I know I run with mine on as it's crucial that I know. Not that I need to with how frequently I frequent and contribute to the 'What's New' thread, but that's neither here nor there. If a modpack creator has a sudden leave then they can push an 'update' which is no more than sending out their 'alerts enabled' version instead of the default 'alerts disabled' one they distribute. That would take mere minutes and I think anyone should be able to spare that.

That being said, yes, some won't do that. It's unfortunate. But I do think that punishing the end users because of a few negligent modpack creators is a bit excessive.

 

[GreenZombie]

And. Pray tell. If a pack is abandoned. The users can't do anything about it. As the servers version is what matters.
The server ops can't do anything as the whole point of using a modpack is to avoid managing a custom set of mods.

If every mod author had the attitude espoused here the users of the pack would have 40 to over 200 update notifications to deal with each time they try to play.

Modpack a get abandoned. Annoying users is not an acceptable solution.

 

[keybounce]

Hmm ...

So, what is needed is a way to easily update modpacks? So that, for example, a final version of a mod can be added to a modpack -- examples being update 164 monster to 25z.?

...

Let me give you a counter-argument for why that can never happen automatically.

Extra Utilities.

Do I really need to go into details here? EU has, over time, added new things that are completely unrelated to what it had before, and completely changed the behavior of other things. Any pack that was balanced for one set of behavior from the unstable ingot tools, for example, may be broken with the new behavior; the introduction of stable ingots might have broken someone else; the introduction of the deep dark in the first place, as well as the newest dimension (which I have not even seen yet), etc.

If an upgrade from 19 to 25z were forced on monster users? How many builds would break; how many things would suddenly explode? Did that change include the industrial coils having a max charge, and old coils being over-powered going kaboom as soon as the chunk loads?

 

[Reika]

And. Pray tell. If a pack is abandoned. The users can't do anything about it. As the servers version is what matters.
The server ops can't do anything as the whole point of using a modpack is to avoid managing a custom set of mods.

If every mod author had the attitude espoused here the users of the pack would have 40 to over 200 update notifications to deal with each time they try to play.

Modpack a get abandoned. Annoying users is not an acceptable solution.

If a server owner is either unable or unwilling to even consider updating mods, they are not fit to run a server. Server owners are expected to spent quite some time managing and maintaining their server, and are expected to have the requisite computer skills to download a file and put it in a folder. I know many do not. They are bad server owners and I care exactly nothing for them.

Yes, I know that part of the appeal of packs is point and click downloads with no further effort, but look where that mentality got us: "I don't care that it's configurable, make it the default!/Who told you you could make changes that would break my world?/You broke my world, I don't care if you warned about it, I don't have time to read changelogs!".

If an upgrade from 19 to 25z were forced on monster users? How many builds would break; how many things would suddenly explode? Did that change include the industrial coils having a max charge, and old coils being over-powered going kaboom as soon as the chunk loads?

No, that was added in v16, but you are nonetheless correct overall.

Oh you know what screw it. I'm done with this disable argument! This will never be permanently disable-able. If that causes people to leave then THEY WERE THE PROBLEM.

This - much the same way people who stopped using RC because of magnetostatic nerfs were the problem - plus again the argument - which has still not been acknowledged - that the alternative is "unless you are this specific pack I know keeps up to date, don't bother with support, I do not care".
If I allow modpacks to sit idly by months out of date, with the ability for the author to totally say "I don't care, I like the old version better/I update once a year, that's plenty/If the mod author wrote better code then they wouldn't need me to update", while 5000 users are reporting bugs I fixed longer ago than half my mods existed?
Then I am going to just tell packs they are ineligible for tech support. Do you want that?
Of course not. That will lead to more complaining and accusations of pack hating.
So stop and think.
What exactly is it you want? Because it is starting to sound like people are demanding - but not willing to openly say - they want both tech support and the ability to host old versions as long as they please.
If this describes you, and you do want support for whatever version you happen to be hosting, old or not, then guess what. You can take your desire and stick it in the garbage, because it will count for exactly as much there as it does here. You are demanding of me services that even most paid software developers do not provide. If you do not see the problem with that, then your sense of entitlement has blinded you to anything but your own self-interest.

Mods - I'd suggest locking this thread. There isn't really anything to be gained by letting this argument go on.

I vote against that. As long as it remains civil - and it is, as heated is not exclusive with civil - and within the forum rules, the only reason to lock it would be if nothing is getting said, something I do not see as being the case. Like I said before, prematurely shutting down discussions leads to higher tensions than before. I also want to see my server point acknowledged, having made it like 10 times now without it being responded to, addressed, quoted or mentioned.

 

[GreenZombie]

If a server owner is either unable or unwilling to even consider updating mods, they are not fit to run a server. Server owners are expected to spent quite some time managing and maintaining their server, and are expected to have the requisite computer skills to download a file and put it in a folder. I know many do not. They are bad server owners and I care exactly nothing for them.

Um. None of us are expected to do anything. This is a hobby. For server operators, players and modders.

But, even if server operators could be expected to update their servers, the practical upshot of that is they would no longer be running a server with FTB pack "X". They would be running some custom pack that would require the users to manually patch their mod lists to match. And the user dropoff there is massive.

So, one can either run a server thats fully up to date, and has 1 or two users. Or a server that just uses an out-the-box FTB pack, and is full to capacity at peak times.

A huge number of users can only enjoy your mods specifically, and modded minecraft generally, because launchers like FTB exist, which can download mods and configuration automatically. And it is the height of arrogance to discount them due to their lack of technical skill.

 

[Kotaro]

Um. None of us are expected to do anything. This is a hobby. For server operators, players and modders.

Correct. The whole issue started started when these people don't try to manage their servers and then complain stuff is broken or needs to be updated. Can't really have your cake and eat it too, you know? From what this thread has produced, is that people are looking into making updating easier and less stressful now. That is a good thing.

But, even if server operators could be expected to update their servers, the practical upshot of that is they would no longer be running a server with FTB pack "X". They would be running some custom pack that would require the users to manually patch their mod lists to match. And the user dropoff there is massive.

I think you're underestimating how many people actually add and mod Minecraft outside of FTB. I use FTB packs as a baseline and then add or remove stuff from there, with the exception of those modpacks that if they're modified beyond what they were shipped with they would break the whole progression of the pack, something like AgSkies. Boy, that's starting to sound awfully familiar.

A huge number of users can only enjoy your mods specifically, and modded minecraft generally, because launchers like FTB exist, which can download mods and configuration automatically. And it is the height of arrogance to discount them due to their lack of technical skill.

In Reika's defense, his mods are currently featured in any recent mainstream pack, so it's not accurate to say that his mods are popular only because of FTB at this point.

If anything, this whole conversation just drives home how much of a pain it is to keep a modpack up to date.

 

[Reika]

Um. None of us are expected to do anything. This is a hobby. For server operators, players and modders.

One, while true, it is still not an unreasonable expectation, not unlike expecting them to deal with griefers or me to provide some technical support.
Two, many server admins do this not just as a hobby but as employment. I got yelled at by one for calling it a hobby. (He was trying to justify taking $60K/yr in donations).

But, even if server operators could be expected to update their servers, the practical upshot of that is they would no longer be running a server with FTB pack "X". They would be running some custom pack that would require the users to manually patch their mod lists to match. And the user dropoff there is massive.

While true, I do not see this as being an issue, because let's face it. Someone unwilling or unable to install a mod is not going to be able to use my mods, because they require far more than that in both willingness to expend effort and problem-solving ability.

A huge number of users can only enjoy your mods specifically, and modded minecraft generally, because launchers like FTB exist, which can download mods and configuration automatically.

I know many people know of me from FTB, but most people I deal or dealt with on topics of using my mods - people like you, Pyure, Padfoote, YX33A, Demosthenex, ljfa, leldra, StrikingWolf, NotSteve, and so on - would be more than capable of doing it had they wanted to. I see it as that most people held back by an inability to install them manually are much the same people as were complaining about the magnetostatic nerfs and so on, complaining that I was forcing them to play the game a certain way - i.e. people who neither like to or in many cases can play the mods as they are designed.

And it is the height of arrogance to discount them due to their lack of technical skill.

For me - and this is me as a person, not just with topics like the mods - once someone falls below a certain threshold of capability, I lose all ability to feel sympathy, much the same as I might - and this is a real occurrence - fail to feel sorry for someone who was fixated on their phone and was struck and killed by a bus they walked in front of.

Given how easy mods are to install - click a button or link and copy the file to a folder - I find it hard to imagine someone unable to do that who is going to do anything but whine when something goes wrong, or who is not going to get stymied by "this machine needs X". Such people, again, have no chance of using the mod and likely are going to be a source of major headaches as they complain every ten minutes and post 75 bug reports all due to their lack of understanding.

Call me arrogant for that if you like - others certainly have, including in the real world - but if your definition is that loosely applicable, I do not see it as being either accurate or useful, and given its connotations, I would find its use rather unjustified and as a result potentially malicious. Personally, I see nothing wrong with requiring of someone both some level of basic comprehension, thinking, and - though this is not directly the case here - rationality, which I do understand many do not have and many others will decry as expecting too much.

 

[GreenZombie]

I know 10 year old kids who play modded minecraft on servers. While the stereotype of pre teens is they are super tech savvy... Not always so much.

What's not obvious perhaps is the vast bulk of players are not posting invalid bug reports. The vast bulk of players don't have forum accounts or post anything at all.

And installing mods for the purpose of connecting to a server is not just a case of dropping in the jar. The server and client config can easily get out of sync meaning a server op now needs to maintain and update a config drop.

 

[Reika]

I know 10 year old kids who play modded minecraft on servers. While the stereotype of pre teens is they are super tech savvy... Not always so much.

While true I fail to see how it changes anything.

What's not obvious perhaps is the vast bulk of players are not posting invalid bug reports. The vast bulk of players don't have forum accounts or post anything at all.

I do doubt the truth of this, but even if true, again, I do not see your point.

And installing mods for the purpose of connecting to a server is not just a case of dropping in the jar. The server and client config can easily get out of sync meaning a server op now needs to maintain and update a config drop.

This is very rarely the case with my mods, but even if it was, "open this file and change the value from 2 to 7 or true to false" is still so simple I would feel I was severely insulting someone's intelligence by walking them though it. Also, 95% of configs are serverside only.

 

[goreae]

I know 10 year old kids who play modded minecraft on servers. While the stereotype of pre teens is they are super tech savvy... Not always so much.

What's not obvious perhaps is the vast bulk of players are not posting invalid bug reports. The vast bulk of players don't have forum accounts or post anything at all.

And installing mods for the purpose of connecting to a server is not just a case of dropping in the jar. The server and client config can easily get out of sync meaning a server op now needs to maintain and update a config drop.

wait, why are they dropping files into the instance at all?

 

[GreenZombie]

While true I fail to see how it changes anything.


I do doubt the truth of this, but even if true, again, I do not see your point.

My point is there are a lot of players of modded minecraft that are extremely non technical. And expecting them to be technical is a bit of a d--- move.

 

[Reika]

My point is there are a lot of players of modded minecraft that are extremely non technical. And expecting them to be technical is a bit of a d--- move.

My whole point is that the mods already do that, and that anyone not able to install an update is going to plop a machine down next to a conduit then submit a bug report about how it doesn't work. And yes, that is a real story. Ask @wolfenstein19.

Therefore, yes, I am shutting some people out, but I already am doing that by the very nature of the mods.

 

[Celestialphoenix]

wait, why are they dropping files into the instance at all?

Its easier to distribute a config file, and have people drop it into the config folder than it is to say open config A, set X to 37, Y=false ect ect.

My point is there are a lot of players of modded minecraft that are extremely non technical. And expecting them to be technical is a bit of a d--- move.

Not really. Its actually not difficult to install a mod, and even if you're struggling there is a tonne- an absolute friggin tonne -of step by step guides on youtube to help with the install process, so even those who don't know but- ARE willing to learn- can help themselves.

​

If you aren't willing to learn, then tough shit- you have no right to complain about not having access to something when you refuse to learn the basic skill needed to gain access.

Saying otherwise is akin to saying 'I don't know how to drive, but you should let me borrow the keys to your car anyway'​

 

[goreae]

Its easier to distribute a config file, and have people drop it into the config folder than it is to say open config A, set X to 37, Y=false ect ect.


Not really. Its actually not difficult to install a mod, and even if you're struggling there is a tonne- an absolute friggin tonne -of step by step guides on youtube to help with the install process, so even those who don't know but- ARE willing to learn- can help themselves.

​

If you aren't willing to learn, then tough shit- you have no right to complain about not having access to something when you refuse to learn the basic skill needed to gain access.

Saying otherwise is akin to saying 'I don't know how to drive, but you should let me borrow the keys to your car anyway'​

no, I'm saying for the hpothetical of a server, why would I be dropping an individual mod or config instead of a full updated pack?

 

[Kotaro]

Not really. Its actually not difficult to install a mod, and even if you're struggling there is a tonne- an absolute friggin tonne -of step by step guides on youtube to help with the install process, so even those who don't know but- ARE willing to learn- can help themselves.

And now it's even easier than what it use to be.

Add mods to an FTB pack, start server. Server has crashed due to conflicting IDs. &^$#. Ok. Lemme go fix that. Restart server. Server has crashed due to conflicting IDs. (&$@. Ok, finally fixed it, server boots up. Cannot connect to server, client has conflicting IDs. (#&$.

...Why is that tree made out of ender chests?