Reika's Update Checker

[GreenZombie]

Its easier to distribute a config file, and have people drop it into the config folder than it is to say open config A, set X to 37, Y=false ect ect.


Not really. Its actually not difficult to install a mod, and even if you're struggling there is a tonne- an absolute friggin tonne -of step by step guides on youtube to help with the install process, so even those who don't know but- ARE willing to learn- can help themselves.

​

If you aren't willing to learn, then tough shit- you have no right to complain about not having access to something when you refuse to learn the basic skill needed to gain access.

Saying otherwise is akin to saying 'I don't know how to drive, but you should let me borrow the keys to your car anyway'​

You realize we are talking about a game in which the user builds with bloody blocks.

I just DO NOT understand this attitude that discriminates against non technical users. "if you aren't willing to learn then tough shit"? What an elitist thing to say.

You (, @Reika) and myself clearly have a difference of opinion on how to treat people.

 

[Reika]

You realize we are talking about a game in which the user builds with bloody blocks.

I just DO NOT understand this attitude that discriminates against non technical users. "if you aren't willing to learn then tough shit"? What an elitist thing to say.

You (, @Reika) and myself clearly have a difference of opinion on how to treat people.

We are talking about people that, even with a tutorial that walks them through a simple process step-by-step, are unable or unwilling to try. I fail to see how such a mindset can exist without either extreme laziness or a total inability to comprehend anything, and as a result, yes, I care little for how my decisions might affect them to benefit the more reasonable people, including myself.

If valuing people who are able and willing to actually think over those who are not is elitism, then I fail to see why that is a bad thing, and I really am getting sick of the - real-world and online - mentality that that sort of "I don't care if there is a tutorial, do it for me"/"how do I click the button?" behavior is something to be accepted as permissible.

Actually it is. It's entirely possible to get a piece of software to a state where bugs are unnoticeable.

Take a look at Thaumcraft. While it might not have quite as many features as Reika's mods, it certainly has a decent percentage. It hasn't updated in 2 months. And yet it's stable and supports a large suite of addons.

That is the point, though. TC rarely adds new features mid-version, and when it does, it takes months upon months to release them. I am not saying this is wrong, but it is fundamentally different from how I operate.

That's when it's helpful to delegate. If you have some experienced users, you can give them access to tag and close bug reports.

I tried that once, and it led to ten times as many problems as I started with, because the guy doing the "community interaction" miscommunicated basically everything. This in fact directly led to tensions between me and two other devs, and at one point it appeared I was nearly going to be pulled from Monster.

This has led to trust issues.

Monster, like all 1.6 packs, are past their support lifecycle. We would ignore bug reports and tell users to play a current and supported pack.

You have to pick a stand and stick with it. Either you still support the 1.6 versions of your mods and address bug reports, or universally ignore them. I don't see why you keep bringing that point up.

Now, yes, but what about back when I was still working on 1.6, but months after Monster's last update?

 

[Celestialphoenix]

You realize we are talking about a game in which the user builds with bloody blocks.
I just DO NOT understand this attitude that discriminates against non technical users. "if you aren't willing to learn then tough shit"? What an elitist thing to say.
You (, @Reika) and myself clearly have a difference of opinion on how to treat people.

Thats how the world works.

If you want a car- you learn to drive.
If you want to be in a band- you learn to play an instrument
If you want to be a blackbelt- you train in martial arts
If you want to be an author- you learn about creative writing.
​

What is it about refusing to learn technical skills that makes it so different from refusing any other skillset?

Because -if anything- its worse, as the startup cost is lower and its far more accessible than the examples I gave.​

When someone makes a conscious decision not to learn a skill (which we are all free to do if we choose) they also forfeit the benefits earned from gaining skill.
Making that decision comes with the responsibility to accept that.

Keeping the example within MC- "I don't want to learn to code, but I want to make mods for Minecraft"
-Then learn to code. Theres plenty of help available.
"I don't want to learn- I want to make mods"
-Tough shit, you need to learn how to write mods if you want to make one (or learn as you're doing so).​

This is not aimed at those who are genuinely unable to learn, which is a significantly different matter entirely.

 

[Reika]

Thats how the world works.

If you want a car- you learn to drive.
If you want to be in a band- you learn to play an instrument
If you want to be a blackbelt- you train in martial arts
If you want to be an author- you learn about creative writing.
​

What is it about refusing to learn technical skills that makes it so different from refusing any other skillset?

Because -if anything- its worse, as the startup cost is lower and its far more accessible than the examples I gave.​

When someone makes a conscious decision not to learn a skill (which we are all free to do if we chose) they also forfeit the benefits earned from gaining skill.
Making that decision comes with the responsibility to accept that.

Keeping the example within MC- "I don't want to learn to code, but I want to make mods for Minecraft"
-Then learn to code. Theres plenty of help available.
"I don't want to learn- I want to make mods"
-Tough shit, you need to learn how to write mods if you want to make one (or learn as you're doing so).​

This is not aimed at those who are genuinely unable to learn, which is a significantly different matter entirely.

This is even worse than that, because we are talking about downloading and moving files, not learning to program. This is like someone refusing to learn how to operate a toaster then complaining when toaster manufacturers do not take their concerns into account.

 

[CoolSquid]

You realize we are talking about a game in which the user builds with bloody blocks.

I just DO NOT understand this attitude that discriminates against non technical users. "if you aren't willing to learn then tough shit"? What an elitist thing to say.

You (, @Reika) and myself clearly have a difference of opinion on how to treat people.

If they're not even willing to try to fix it, they void every single possibility to get my sympathy whatsoever. People can't expect that others do everything for them. If they never learn that, they won't come far in life.

 

[Golrith]

Mod packs by their nature will always be a "version behind" on the mods installed, just the same way as the entire modding scene is a version behind vanilla.
There has to be some tolerance with bug reports from out of date versions, but there has to be a cutoff point where the answer is "Update, the version being used is too old to support".

Reading through, I had a thought which someone else has mentioned. Only show update messages for OP users. By the nature of OP status, this tends to be admins of servers, the people who need to know about updates. A casual player joining a server doesn't need to have a wall of text about mod updates, it's not their responsibility regardless of their technical skill level.

I would love though that some mods would actually slow down on their mod updates. Some update nearly every day (and some of them include chat box messages about being out of date), so there's never a "moments peace" where I could actually play the game instead of staring at download screens, configs, loading screens and crash reports.

 

[1M Industries]

Most of my haters are "hit and run"; I see very few repeat offendors (and the ones that are are not so much random hate but people trying to spread rumors, which is usually done through platforms like twitter), so I doubt they will ever taper off, making this a full-time job, not to mention depressing.

Yes, but reading through it still takes time.


I know (although is this still maintained for abandoned packs like Monster?), but how many users actually listen? Experience tells me something like half.

I would be willing to help, if you opened the tracker. I have the time and technical knowledge to help out with an issue tracker.

 

[CoolSquid]

I would be willing to help, if you opened the tracker. I have the time and technical knowledge to help out with an issue tracker.

I would also be willing to help.

 

[Celestialphoenix]

I would volunteer but I don't think familiar enough with your mods to fulfill a useful function; I think I'd inadvertently cause more issues than I'll fix.

(I'll want to log several hundred game hours of intense playtesting and become innately familiar with 99% of your mod before I'll feel confident enough in such a position.)​

Though its worth noting that Reika had someone before- who did cause a lot of long term damage, and if you get your fingers burnt like that I can kinda understand the reluctance and inherent trust issues with delegating such responsibility again.

However if you feel do know someone you can trust; I think it'll be worthwhile testing the waters and seeing if it helps.
​

Edit- fair point Squiddy- I read a little too deeply into it

 

[CoolSquid]

I would volunteer but I don't think familiar enough with your mods to fulfill a useful function; I think I'd inadvertently cause more issues than I'll fix.

(I'll want to log several hundred game hours of intense playtesting and become innately familiar with 99% of your mod before I'll feel confident enough in such a position.)​

Though its worth noting that Reika had someone before- who did cause a lot of long term damage, and if you get your fingers burnt like that I can kinda understand the reluctance and inherent trust issues with delegating such responsibility.

Well, I was more thinking about checking for outdated versions, .jar.zip and similar stuff. I'm not too familiar with the deeper mechanics of RoC.

 

[1M Industries]

Well, I was more thinking about checking for outdated versions, .jar.zip and similar stuff. I'm not too familiar with the deeper mechanics of RoC.

Wheras I could do some "level 2" support, ie power requirements, ratios, etc.

 

[trajing]

While I don't have enough free time to do anything major, I could go around and take care of personal attacks in the issue tracker.

 

[TomeWyrm]

As much as I harp on FTB, I do understand that The Team has a good reason for the policies @Watchful11. I also understand that people are usually a version behind, which is what the grace period is supposed to be for, and I still think 2 weeks is a bit short, which is why I'm suggesting 4-6 weeks. Also this grace won't apply to pack authors/maintainers/ops/whatever, just average users. Because at some point the users have a right to know they're using absurdly outdated mods, especially in a situation like a few of the major updates which invalidated every single tutorial on how to play RoC. The Engine Chaining Nerf, the Magnetostatic Nerfs, and the Tokamak Lubricant/Coolant requirement are the three biggest offenders. I'm not kidding when I say it's like a lesser version of trying to use a TC3 tutorial for TC4. Some of the basic concepts are the same, but you are going to run into a very large number of issues with implementation.

As for why Monster keeps getting brought up... because Monster keeps getting brought up in his forum thread. I haven't been truly reading the thread in (well) over a week, but I remember seeing at least one v19 bug within a week before I went on hiatus in the open thread... I shudder to think how many Reika has to deal with in PM.

Let me also extend my offer of support help. I don't know the ins outs and roundabouts of your mods yet, but I can sure help wade through the ID: 10T errors, and some basic issues.

 

[ljfa]

I guess there are only very few people who know everything about Reika's mods - perhaps only Reika himself. So questions or reports about unfamiliar parts must be forwarded.
Anyway, in case you decide for this solution, you can also count on me helping out a bit.

 

[keybounce]

the argument - which has still not been acknowledged - that the alternative is "unless you are this specific pack I know keeps up to date, don't bother with support, I do not care".
...
Then I am going to just tell packs they are ineligible for tech support. Do you want that?
Of course not.
...
What exactly is it you want? Because it is starting to sound like people are demanding - but not willing to openly say - they want both tech support and the ability to host old versions as long as they please.

I agree with you. Saying that old packs can get no warnings, no notice, no nothing, and still expect people to report problems, is crazy.

Lets put this into perspective:

1. I had a world destroying problem with forge. I was not on latest (No, I don't update forge three times a day when it updates rapidly in a weekend, I wait for it be stable for a bit. No, I don't update to versions that people report introduce bugs, see the biome issue from ... 1224 to 1230?). I reported it. I got banned from the forge forums as a result.

2. I regularly report problems -- SERIOUS problems -- with Mac OS 10.9.5 to Apple, even though the current version is 10.10.3. I'd love to see these fixed, because Apple does still release patches for 10.9.5. But, they only fix 10.10, and tell me to retest with the newest OS.

Never mind that this breaks several programs that I use, or that a time machine backup, once 10.10 has been seen/backed up, will refuse to restore 10.9. Or at least, I think that's how it works -- I know that when I tested 10.9 on my 10.7 machine, found it had serious problems, and tried to go back to my TM backup, that it refused. I had to redownload 10.7 from the internet, and then restore my system/personal data after the software was back. That was slightly less than 100%, and it took me a while to track down and reinstall the (few, but not zero) programs that did not restore properly.

(BTW, the current issue I've reported is that time machine has failed to backup some major files for me. So ... guess what I do *NOT* want to do?

(And yes, when my machine was partitioned/formatted, I made sure to set aside enough room to have a second copy of the OS on a second partition, so I could do test installs. But if I can't rely on time machine to rescue me if time machine is what is having the problems, it becomes worthless.)

3. Imagine the idea of saying "First go to the modpack creator for support, then go to me". If you wanted people to have customized modpacks, this might be the approach. But in truth, people won't -- they will go directly to you.

There is no functional difference to you between "This is a customized, pack-specific behavior", and "This is a year-and-a-half old monster pack".

You have found that people don't go to the FTB monster people, they go to you. Ditto for custom packs.

I do not blame or disagree with you at all for the "Packs must use stock formats; personalized system can use customizations". If anything, I'd like to see single-player server setups permit customization.

I do not know if this has always been the case, but MT is server side controlled, and RFTools configs being overridden by the client sounds like a bug for most configs.

My memory: MT used to have some things that were not resettable; so, if I loaded up one world, and then tried to load up a second world, some things in the first world would persist. And, this affected server configs differently than single user.

I have not played with minetweaker since ... almost a year ago now? Before Jampack 1; I planned to use it in JP1, but never got to that point of pack development.

The issue with RFTools was fixed; the whole "client and server had to be synched" was causing too many problems, so it had to be addressed.

Maybe, but you are the minority and are not who I have in mind when designing policies. Also, doing so both makes you totally ineligible for support anyways and means you are more competent than the majority.

To clarify: That was a hypothetical based on "what if I ran true single player". Since I do want to play with friends, even if I'm the only one doing RoC, I can't.

Question: Of the two options, which is preferable?

1. The update checker as currently agreed to: the closeable popup that can be disabled until the next major version with a command, which will have a config to make it so that only the pack maker can see it, until the pack is determined to have been abandoned (or at least has ceased being updated)
2. Modpacks get no support at all. Period. End of story.

I was surprised to see so much "2" support here.
I do like the idea of "Notify OPs, but not normal players".
I do think that "Put a big notice at the start of the report saying Out-Of-Date mod, do not expect a fix without updating" would help, but we've also seen it won't stop the reports.

But the issue is this: People do run old versions. People do want support. Requiring people to update to the latest, and retest, before being able to even _REPORT_ a bug?

I don't mind -- seriously, I expect this now -- being told "Yep, we found that bug, it's fixed in the updated version". (NB: Just imagine trying to transfer stuff from a 10.7 time machine backup to a 10.9 new machine, only to run into a bug that was discovered during 10.9 beta testing, was fixed in 10.9, but affected any earlier backup -- and Apple saying "We won't release a critical bug that prevents you from transferring data from your old systems". Not a joke. Took me over a week, and several attempts, to fix. Had I known it would be that long, I would have gotten their customer service people to send me a firewire adaptor for this new computer, and pointed them to that technician's report as justification -- firewire (direct drive mode) did not have the flaw that time machine transfers did.)

I would love to see people actually maintain good branching behavior, and have a bugfix branch, release branch, etc.

But the reality? GIT is probably the first SCCS that does this behavior properly, the setup needed to handle this is the exact opposite of the "introduction to GIT" chapter one tutorial of almost every book on git (every book/tutuorial I've seen, anyways; I'm not the only one that has made this observation), and the GIT branching system is as powerful and undisciplined as "goto", if not "calculated goto". (Actually, from what I've seen of some of the plumbing, probably calculated goto).

Given the lack of a tutorial on a proper branching model that accurately supports a vendor code base, the local code base, the various releases, hotfixing the releases and pushing the hotfixes to both the maintenance and the new development, etc. -- I'm not surprised that it isn't yet widely done.

 

[Reika]

As much as I harp on FTB, I do understand that The Team has a good reason for the policies @Watchful11. I also understand that people are usually a version behind, which is what the grace period is supposed to be for, and I still think 2 weeks is a bit short, which is why I'm suggesting 4-6 weeks. Also this grace won't apply to pack authors/maintainers/ops/whatever, just average users. Because at some point the users have a right to know they're using absurdly outdated mods, especially in a situation like a few of the major updates which invalidated every single tutorial on how to play RoC. The Engine Chaining Nerf, the Magnetostatic Nerfs, and the Tokamak Lubricant/Coolant requirement are the three biggest offenders. I'm not kidding when I say it's like a lesser version of trying to use a TC3 tutorial for TC4. Some of the basic concepts are the same, but you are going to run into a very large number of issues with implementation.

As for why Monster keeps getting brought up... because Monster keeps getting brought up in his forum thread. I haven't been truly reading the thread in (well) over a week, but I remember seeing at least one v19 bug within a week before I went on hiatus in the open thread... I shudder to think how many Reika has to deal with in PM.

...You do not want to know...

Mod packs by their nature will always be a "version behind" on the mods installed, just the same way as the entire modding scene is a version behind vanilla.
There has to be some tolerance with bug reports from out of date versions, but there has to be a cutoff point where the answer is "Update, the version being used is too old to support".

I would love though that some mods would actually slow down on their mod updates. Some update nearly every day (and some of them include chat box messages about being out of date), so there's never a "moments peace" where I could actually play the game instead of staring at download screens, configs, loading screens and crash reports.

I only release major updates every few months - the rapidfired minor versions are all bugfixes that have no good reason to refuse using - so I do not see this as a major issue. Now, it is true that most of my issues come from versions much more than one version old, but even allowing, say three versions back today would be allowing the reporting of bugs I fixed in September.

Reading through, I had a thought which someone else has mentioned. Only show update messages for OP users. By the nature of OP status, this tends to be admins of servers, the people who need to know about updates. A casual player joining a server doesn't need to have a wall of text about mod updates, it's not their responsibility regardless of their technical skill level.

Yes, and as I said I am very willing to implement this.



The thing is, as for delegating the support role, I have three concerns:

1. [Already mentioned above] The issue of miscommunication. This is particularly severe in cases of dealing with sensitive topics. The worst with the other guy were related to power conversion and complaints of the mod being overpowered.
   
2. Availability: Just because someone is available and willing now to help does not mean they will remain so; if I were to select, say, three people to help, it is not unlikely there will be long periods where none are available and I am forced to take on their role myself. This does become less of an issue the more people I have.
3. Efficacy. I have no desire to withdraw from the community - I still want to participate in discussions, especially "deep meaning" ones like the one here regarding "acceptable power limits" in mods, as well as my suggestions threads here and my thread on MCF. Now, with me still being present there, I see it as overwhelmingly likely that people will still report bugs, old and not, to those media, kind of negating the point of the issue tracker. Yes, they can be refused support - though that will generate some drama, and many will do the "repost every 6 hours until they get a response" behavior - but they still clutter the thread.

 

[CoolSquid]

The issue tracker is up.

 

[Reika]

The issue tracker is up.

But, as said before, this is not going to replace the thread, nor can it. So the need for a version checker remains.

 

[Arkandos]

The issue tracker is up.

I see you all had fun with the issue tags

 

[CoolSquid]

I see you all had fun with the issue tags

Uhm, kinda...

Spoiler

We had to test it, okay...