Redstone in Motion:[Why] will it never be in a FTB pack?

[Nebbie]

According to Vauthil, (here) it will never be in a FTB pack. However, the information in that thread was mostly secondhand and thus the reason for exclusion was unclear. Two questions:
1-What is the official (or unofficial) reason?
2-How does everyone feel about the possibility of it ever being added?

And please, keep it civil. I shouldn't have to ask this since it is essentially just saying "follow the rules", but the matter is quite emotionally charged and I fear posters will forget the rules.

 

[Vauthil]

Verbatim repeating the reasons why publicly would in themselves be toeing a breach of forum etiquette, which is why I didn't do that in the first place. The most sanitary synopsis I can provide is that there's no rational reason to include a mod in the packs that comes from an author who actively antagonizes and vehemently wishes ill to FTB and its staff members (and let me be clear: there are particular things you can say to another human being that there's no way you can possibly "walk it back" down the line. That's the level of antagonism that was projected). From a standpoint of a purely pragmatic interpretation it'd be flat out really stupid to expect flexibility and compatibility fixes from an author that has no wish to work with FTB and that takes every chance possible to play the antagonist to FTB.

There are more concerns to worry about when choosing mods than merely "does it work in a vacuum". Those concerns are all part of making mod packs. If the team can't reliably call upon the author to deal with interaction issues (especially in a mod that by its very nature can touch on stuff from every other mod), that's a very important thing to take into consideration when it comes time to discuss inclusion in the packs. When the team has been given every cause (and then some) to believe the mod author not only doesn't care to work with it, but is in fact actively antagonistic towards it, you can bet that mod isn't getting included.

Good enough?

 

[Zenthon_127]

Its author basically hates FTB and takes every opportunity to insult us. In addition RP2 Frames weren't exactly the most....stable feature in Modded MC.

That'll do it.

 

[Nebbie]

Yes, thank you for the info.

EDIT:

Its author basically hates FTB and takes every opportunity to insult us. In addition RP2 Frames weren't exactly the most....stable feature in Modded MC.

That'll do it.

Jakj hates certain mod authors, and seemingly the whole FTB leadership, but not the users.
RiM's method of movement is safer than frames as far as I know. Unfortunately, that means it causes ComputerCraft computers to reboot.

 

[Lawbroken]

Removed the Poll.

No matter how much voting happens it's up to Slowpoke and the modpack team if something is accepted or not, Nothing to do with the public.

 

[Dorque]

I'm experimenting with Calclavia's Force Manipulator and getting great results, I just need to figure out how to speed it up somewhat. WAY easier to work with than frames though in my opinion.

 

[Zenthon_127]

I'm experimenting with Calclavia's Force Manipulator and getting great results, I just need to figure out how to speed it up somewhat. WAY easier to work with than frames though in my opinion.

I've never used it myself,but maybe add more? Out of curiosity how does it work?

 

[Dorque]

I've never used it myself,but maybe add more? Out of curiosity how does it work?

It's a little complicated to explain in brief, but I'll give it a shot:

It functions like frames, but rather than attaching frames to the things that you want to move, you create a "pattern" for the area you want to work with, either by using a custom pattern (works by right-clicking two points and saving everything inside) or by taking a predefined pattern (like a cube) and shaping it until it matches the area you want. It'll also display for you, in the world, which blocks it will move and in what direction, or all blocks within the selection.

Basically, you push and prod the force field into shape by adding "scale" and "translation" modules to the GUI until it's where you want it, select which way the blocks are going to move by wrenching the sides, then give it a redstone pulse and it'll move every block in the selection by one block (well, once you provide enough power... but I'm not going to attempt to explain all of MFFS here.) It's slow going but I'm working on an elevator right now and I have to say that it's way smoother than frames ever were, plus being able to move the elevator down to z10 from z64 and back up without a giant frame shaft is nice.

Still working on getting the correct number and speed of pulses from a PRC, but that's a different issue entirely.

 

[Nebbie]

Redstone in Motion is also a significant improvement over frames, though the MFFS system is a bit more compact (at minimum you need two blocks connected to the "carriage" blocks, a ComputerCraft terminal and the drive that works with ComputerCraft commands). An elevator is simple with some support carriages (when moved, they move anything a straight line in front of their facing with them, and if I remember correctly putting two facing each other allows you to limit the movement to only blocks including and between the two), one carriage drive and either ComputerCraft commands or some Redlogic wires.

 

[Dorque]

Just noticed this post by KirinDave in another thread, thought I'd add it to the mix:

There are four mods I've tried. Truss and Redstone In Motion crash a lot because they try and do rendering. Of the two, Truss is less crashy. Which is too bad, because RiM is actually a really awesome mod that actually advances the concept of frames.

Complex Machines adds frames, but don't use them. Every time I've tried I've corrupted a world.

MFFS3, Calclavia's mod, has the best frame equivalent right now. It's incredibly good, it lets you move whole volumes of space with forcefield inchworm drives. It requires a lot of power, but I've successfully moved online nuclear reactors (both AtSci and IC2) powering the manipulators. I've also moved buildcraft tanks, and with some careful design you can even move animal farms (I used MFR conveyors to make this work, btw).

If you want frames in 1.5/1.6, the most reliable and useful mod to do it is MFFS3 as far as I can tell. Redstone In Motion is very promising, but the author is obsessed with fancy rendering for every block and this is just... not going to happen. Too many blocks have custom rendering code and you can't crash every time someone has an unusual implicit multiblock or .obj. RiM also has the downside that once you're on it you get locked in place and it can be insanely hard to stop the machine without relogging. Just a very poor design decision.

 

[Hyperme]

{words}

so i could write out a incoherent paragraph about actions and words, but i'm ill and don't feel like it. instead i'll compress my feeling on the subject into a pithy phrase that i feel sums up the problem that i see here. warning: may contain criticism of FTB people.

"Feed the Beast: Where attacking users gets your own pack, but disrespect us and you can enjoy the blacklist!"

I'm aware this is a pretty 1D viewing of issues I should talk about more, but illness. Also mod talk incoming!



So moving away from broad criticisms of FTB policy and on stuff that matters ever so slightly. In my opinion RiM is the superior frames replacement. Why? Because options. You get four different types of carriage and three engine type (and computercraft support), with various useful features. You can pretend you're just playing Redpower with the orange carriages and non-moving carriage engine. Or you can select an entire cuboid with the yellow ones, and take it where ever using a motor that moves along with the carriages. Also you can blacklist blocks to prevent people stealing the top of your multiblocks. And there's plans for energy requirements, with tiers and burdens and all that stuff you can optimize. But it's optional so if you just want to move things you can. Yay choices.

 

[PeggleFrank]

"Feed the Beast: Where attacking users gets your own pack, but disrespect us and you can enjoy the blacklist!"

To the first part of that statement:

Unhinged isn't a reward for Greg, it's a separation. mDiyo and Greg both asked not to be in the same pack together, so they aren't.

As to the second part:

FTB has no reason to respect those who send no respect back. Would you pick somebody back up after they knocked you down? Of course not. You would either ignore them or keep them down, the latter being the less preferred choice. If Jakj shows that he doesn't care about FTB, then FTB has no reason to care about his mod. If you look at his history, he's actually decompiled numerous mods, which by itself would get him a denial from the FTB packs. Technic packs are less official (to say the least), and as such most of the modpacks are made by the community and put up for download. You can't disrespect an infinite range of modpacks, since there's no chance that you could know about all of them or have any experience with all of them, but you can disrespect an organization a company quite easily for a particular subjective reason.

I'm tired, so sense been have may not made.

 

[Dorque]

so i could write out a incoherent paragraph about actions and words, but i'm ill and don't feel like it. instead i'll compress my feeling on the subject into a pithy phrase that i feel sums up the problem that i see here. warning: may contain criticism of FTB people.

"Feed the Beast: Where attacking users gets your own pack, but disrespect us and you can enjoy the blacklist!"

I'm aware this is a pretty 1D viewing of issues I should talk about more, but illness. Also mod talk incoming!

Both decisions were made in the best interests of the users, not the staff, and I think that's all that need be said on that subject moving forward.

As for RiM, you're welcome to add it manually, I'd be curious to know how you find it on a server being used by multiple players. If it is as crash-prone as has been suggested, I suspect it's best restrained to single player worlds.

 

[John Anthony Kazos Jr.]

I'm getting rather tired of seeing people claim that I'll ignore what they say out of spite just because I don't like them. I have 63 pages of community interaction in my Technic thread, chock-full of people talking about things they'd like changed or giving bug reports, and guess what? I discuss back, and I fix bugs. I even frequently google my mod and look through the crash reports people have put up that never make their way onto my Technic thread, to keep up to date with what non-Technic people are saying.

I've never said word one against the people who PLAY with the FTB pack. And guess what? That means they're the ones I care about. If my mod were put into FTB, and someone from the FTB team were to say "dude, X from Y breaks Z when it does A before B" then I'd go "derp, hang on, let me fix that". Becuase guess what? It affects the people who play the FTB pack. You know: The ones I care about.

I don't have to give a flying flip about the people "in charge" in order to make a quality product. Do you think I go out for steak and beer with my bosses at work? No, most of them I think are chuckleheads that are nice people but rather hypocritical and certainly toe the company line way too much, and a few of them I really don't like at all. But guess what? I still do a great job, and I get the full raise every time I come up for evaluation, and I still get first pick of the shifts each time the fiscal period switches.

I am 33 years old, and I by now have learned how to separate "how I feel" from "what I do". It would be great if more people in the world learned the same.

 

[Dorque]

Being that so few people can separate how one feels from what one does, your rather obtusely rude comments about them and the fact that they don't really know you from Adam, would you really expect them to give you the benefit of the doubt?

And now you come charging in here all indignant about their opinion of you, which may I remind you, you started.

Now, this is just me talking and I've only got 29 years to your 33, but perhaps respect is a two way street and needs to be given to be received? Perhaps if you were to curb behaviours some might refer to as rude and arrogant, people would be more likely to treat you the way you seem to expect to be treated?

I understand your frustration, but I do not understand why you feel you've earned the right to be the injured party here. Please consider that next time you want to fling insults.

 

[John Anthony Kazos Jr.]

I'm not the injured party: I don't make any money off this mod, not even petty little adf.ly pennies; I don't get fame or recognition; I get exactly jack-diddly-squat from anyone anywhere doing anything with this mod. My license is so absurdly open and inviting that it's actually completely allowed for someone to take my entire source-code base, change the name to "Joe's Redstone In Motion", recompile and release it, without even CREDITING me. I have relinquished complete and total control of anything to do with my mod, because I want it to be forkable, and maintainable, and known: If I drop dead tomorrow, I want someone else to take it and keep it going.

You know who gets hurt here? The people who play your pack who want to use my mod but don't know a byte from a biscuit. The entire reason your pack (and our pack) exists is for those people, for whom "go in your config file and change 'sidesensitive' to 'true'" may as well be Sanskrit for all they can figure out how to do it. For all the people for whom "just add it manually" is a fruitless pursuit.

If you tell me my mod sucks, I'll say "Why?" and then change it. If you tell me my mod is broken, I'll say "How?" and then fix it. If you tell me "Screw you, you don't like us so we don't like you.", then you're a fool.

I honestly do not care in the slightest whether my mod gets into any pack anywhere. What I care about is your technologically-incapable players being denied the possibility of using my mod for grounds not connected to quality or reliability. If the day comes where my mod's feature-requests and bug-reports have fallen to the same density as the rest of the mods in the FTB pack, and it's still not in there, then the hypocrisy will be undeniable.

Test me: Tell me something that's broken in my mod, file a bug report, and see if I change it. Call the "bluff" I'm not making about caring what FTB people say regarding my mod. Pretend I'm in your pack, and see how I act.

 

[Dorque]

I'm not the injured party

Sigh. Ok, the subtle, polite method was obviously lost on you, so off with the kid gloves and then I'm out of this discussion.

If you want to tell me you don't feel you're the injured party and you don't care what we think, then don't come in here acting all butthurt the moment someone says something uncomplimentary about you.

You said a pretty nasty thing about FTB, FTB decided that was a good reason not to trust you and you're sure not doing anything now to make me doubt their decision.

Grow up and stop acting like a petulant child. You're 33 and throwing a tantrum because someone said something mean about you on the internets and it's embarrassing to watch.

If you want people to respect you, try starting your next post with the words "I'm sorry" because personally, I think you owe both Eloraam and the FTB staff an apology and I frankly don't care how great your mod is if you're going to insist on acting so entitled.

Ok, I'm done, and apologies in advance to the mods, I felt it needed to be said.

 

[John Anthony Kazos Jr.]

Crashing, corrupted aura, exploding bees, and freakish hats, back and forth like a tennis game, at the whim of the moment, all these people present and accounted for in your packs and lauded to the skies.

But some nasty words versuses a 100% open-source codebase that has a history of supporting almost every wish the community using it has and at least working around every bug that comes in, and I'm too volatile to be trusted. Sure. Okay then.

If you want to come back with some logic, feel free. In the mean time, I'll stop trying to make you see it. "You cannot reason someone out of a position they did not reason their way into."

 

[Vauthil]

What I care about is your technologically-incapable players being denied the possibility of using my mod for grounds not connected to quality or reliability.

Oh I'm sorry, you mean to say FTB should find somebody who expresses nothing but contempt towards members of FTB staff to be a completely and totally reliable and trustworthy partner? I'm not the decision-maker on this one, but I'll save you some time and say that's probably going to be a no.

You have your views of FTB based on your outlook of what FTB has done and is doing. Fair enough. You claim you can compartmentalize what you say in your social time to what work you do in your modding time. Unfortunately given the continual nature of your speech, your word is not your bond in that regard in my view and the view of others with a lot more say than I have. Review this month's case of Pax Dickinson for an object lesson in public speech being taken at face value.

But some nasty words versuses a 100% open-source codebase that has a history of supporting almost every wish the community using it has and at least working around every bug that comes in, and I'm too volatile to be trusted. Sure. Okay then.

Given the nature of the remarks as they have been conveyed by others to me, for what is alleged to have been said in my opinion there's no walking that back, ever. That aside, given the sheer lack of respect you have for FTB, its team members, and many of the mod authors that work with it, there is no basis for a mutual understanding to ever be reached that would involve a working relationship.

And with that, I think I've said all that needs be said on this subject. Answers are given and you got your fair shot on the soapbox to make your case for good or for ill in front of this community (and those points will stand for this community to make their own assessments on). This thread is now locked. Good day.

(Moderation Disclosure: I have edited my initial statement upon reflection that 5am-insomniac-Vauthil is not the nicest person I know, and that if there are any stories to tell that those should be left to other parties. Providing gossip or titillation is not one of my duties here.)