Really stupid things that people have said about Modded MC(Off topicness makes moderators tired)

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Is this a good idea?

  • Yes

    Votes: 66 18.2%
  • No

    Votes: 18 5.0%
  • if people don't get out of control

    Votes: 68 18.8%
  • POTATOES

    Votes: 210 58.0%

  • Total voters
    362
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Reika

RotaryCraft Dev
FTB Mod Dev
Sep 3, 2013
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Toronto, Canada
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how hard is it to timestamp releases and feed that info into minecraft along with the update check?

If you can distinguish between a pack maker and a user by using something similar to Coolsquid's method, then perhaps one way to not bother users of up-to-date packs is to have something like a 2-week* grace period for them. Users of out-of-date packs would usually be using mod versions that are over two weeks old*, so they'll be asked to update. When this happens, you can remove the 'user' status so it has to be restored by a pack maker supplying an update.

In this way:
- People not using a mod pack, or pack maintainers, are immediately notified of updates (if they load up).
- People using an out-of-date pack are no longer flagged as 'users' if the version one above the one they're using is over two weeks old*, meaning they will start to receive update notifications just as a pack maker would. (so if I'm a user using v4a, I'll be notified when v4b is over two weeks old*)

Edit: third point invalid :p.

The only thing unaccounted for is 'holding off' rather than laziness, which could be hard to detect. Although it does allow 'holding off' for up to two weeks*, which could probably be deemed 'enough'

* it doesn't have to be two weeks.
This is exactly what I suggested and was crucified.
 

Antaioz

New Member
Jul 29, 2019
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This is exactly what I suggested and was crucified.
hmm, I must've glossed over it or forgot or somehing.
The response is not entirely unexpected...
I suspect unless you provide an option for complete removal of all update notifications this'll be the case unfortunately.
 

TomeWyrm

New Member
Jul 29, 2019
898
1
1
This is exactly what I suggested and was crucified.
Are you sure? Because what Antaioz proposed seems to fix every problem I have with the current marquee.

Use CoolSquid's method to generate a time or version stamped hash involving the user's UUID or something unique to a machine (personally prefer UUID... but meh as long as I am forced to see it as the pack maintainer that is actually a GOOD thing. If I could get similar functionality in all the mods I use? I would die in bliss), and if the generated hash is different from the stored hash don't show updates for X time, Y versions, or both.

Also while we're talking about that, Version Checker is incorrectly detecting your mod versions... which is slightly annoying as I always have "updates" reported in the title screen now. Are you directly supporting it, or is it somehow detecting the wrong version itself?
 

Hyperme

Popular Member
Apr 3, 2013
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It's kind of funny to watch all you peeps who constantly despair over users not following simple instructions attempt to make users follow simple instructions. If you try to make something idiot-proof, the universe will provide a dumber idiot. If you want people on the latest version and only the latest version, you have two (bad) options:

1. Prevent the game from loading if mods are out of date. Fun way to obliterate your reputation.
2. Auto-download new updates when they are pushed. Do not do this*. If you change Forge versions, you break everything using your mod.

*If you are doing it, stop. Having a modded MC setup suddenly stop working despite not touching it for a week is infuriating.
 

DrowElf

New Member
Jul 29, 2019
649
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Have to agree with HyperMe here. Plus forcing people in the MC community to due something by annoying them is like putting a kick me sign on your own back. I get where you were coming from (you are tired of bug reports and complaints from people who have not updated in a while with problems that you have already fixed) but forcing your will upon others is never going to end well on the internet, especially in the remarkably entitled modded Minecraft community. I having nothing but respect for most modders, you included, as you guys make content others enjoy as a hobby and put up with the terrible idiots in the community, but considering your experience in dealing with your idiot users, I can't help but think that the massive amount of hate was entirely predictable and preventable.
 

Reika

RotaryCraft Dev
FTB Mod Dev
Sep 3, 2013
5,079
5,331
550
Toronto, Canada
sites.google.com
Are you sure? Because what Antaioz proposed seems to fix every problem I have with the current marquee.

Use CoolSquid's method to generate a time or version stamped hash involving the user's UUID or something unique to a machine (personally prefer UUID... but meh as long as I am forced to see it as the pack maintainer that is actually a GOOD thing. If I could get similar functionality in all the mods I use? I would die in bliss), and if the generated hash is different from the stored hash don't show updates for X time, Y versions, or both.?
My version was even more lenient:
What I have done is add a config that turns off the marquee...so long as you are not two major versions out of date and it has been less than two weeks since the update, since if either of those conditions are met it is fairly clear the user had no intention of updating.
The two are the same except that my version also lets the pack maintainer turn it off for the grace period.

I find it odd that you do not remember this, because you were explicitly against it.

My post seems to have recovered a bit (at +2 now), but about 24 hours after writing it it was at -8, and it spawned at least three private messages.

Also while we're talking about that, Version Checker is incorrectly detecting your mod versions... which is slightly annoying as I always have "updates" reported in the title screen now. Are you directly supporting it, or is it somehow detecting the wrong version itself?
I do indeed directly interface with it now, but it is fed the same data that I use for generating my native update notifications, meaning the two should never disagree.




Now, about an idea suggested earlier for a sixth modpack rule, regarding remaining up to date:
The rule would have to read something like the following:
"The pack must make a reasonable effort to remain up-to-date with the latest versions of my mods for the applicable Minecraft version, and understand that no bug reports or other support will be accepted for older versions. If using an old version is unavoidable, you must refrain from making any negative public judgements about the mod on topics of balance, design, performance, stability, or otherwise, as it is very likely your information is out of date and incorrect. Any person caught complaining about the mod when their complaints are nullified by a later version will be penalized and may have to remove the mod from their pack or publicly retract their statements. This responsibility is shared with the pack creator and all users of the pack, something they must be aware of. In the event that the pack stops being maintained, the task of updating falls on people who continue to use it."
 
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CoolSquid

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Jul 29, 2019
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Reddit user about Botania:
I've gotten stuck a bunch of times, and luckily through the help of friends and google, have gotten my questions answered. However, I'm now at a point where the documentation is vague and others' experience seems to be only with previous versions of the mod.
*cough*Lexica Botania*cough*
 

SynfulChaot

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Jul 29, 2019
599
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Ok. This will be my last two cents on the 'update marquee' issue as continued discussion is going nowhere. This all seems to stem from a basic disagreement of principle. Between a modmaker who believes all should only run the newest version, and players who understand that that isn't always feasible.

On the side of the modmaker, I agree that having everyone run the newest version is most desirable. And in SSP, this is often easy enough. Especially from the more tech savvy players like most of the crowd here. But updating a mod always has it's inherent risks, such as unexpected cross-mod issues. Most are benign, but some can cause world corruption and chunk resets.

Now on the side of modpack creators and maintainers, running the newest version *isn't* always feasible, even if it *is* desirable. This can be for a multitude of reasons. First off, modpacks need to be stable. They often lag a bit behind the bleeding edge mod updates so they can properly test all the updated mods and make sure no issues arise. Just as a modmaker needs to do internally for just their mod, a modpack creator needs to do so for all the mods in the pack *together*. This is not an insignificant amount of time. And once they do that, they need to send out the updated pack. For some launchers, this is easy. For others, such as FTB, this can, again, take some time. Second off, some modpacks are purpose-built, such as packs like Crash Landing and Agrarian Skies. These ones have a *very* fine balance and tend to ingest updates excessively slowly after they launch as any even *minor* change within a mod can upset the balance of the pack. Third, modpacks aren't upkept for eternity. After a certain point, any modpack becomes abandoned as the makers either step down or move onto something new. Lastly, modpacks should be professional. They shouldn't harass the users with mod update notifications as players are not just playing the mods in question, but the mod*pack* in question. When running a pack, mod updates are generally the purview of the modpack creators.

Then onto the side of the server owners. Not all owners create and host their own modpacks. Many run common hosted packs through launchers such as FTB, meaning they are not the modpack maintainers themselves. They are then at the mercy of the modpack. Yes, they *could* require people to manually update or host it themselves. For the convenience of their users, though, this rarely happens. It's easier to just be able to point at a launcher and tell people to just run modpack x. This is true of both large servers and small servers. And if the modpack that a server is running becomes abandoned, then the issues redouble. Server owners then would have their workload increase with having to not just maintain the server, but all of a sudden needing to maintain the modpack as well. And when mods have 'major' revisions, this often can require a world reset. Especially when shifting major Minecraft or Forge versions. Users on a server do *not* like world resets. Thus the continued existence of servers running 1.6.4 modpacks. And again, servers, like modpacks, should be professional. They shouldn't harass users with mod updates as, at this point, the updates are up to both the modpack maker *and* the server owner. It doesn't matter if there's a newer version of a mod as if you're not running the *server's* version of the modpack then you can't connect.

Finally on to the users, namely those who play on servers. If they needed to update mods manually, this can cause issues. Especially if they play on more than one server using particular launchers. To modify one particular modpack just for one server often means that that modpack is modified *period*. So if two servers run different versions of one mod with the same modpack as a base then they can be SOL unless they run the pack with a different launcher. This is the very reason most servers run unmodified modpacks straight from a launcher.

Yes, I understand getting bug reports for fixed issues is a pain and a waste of time. But that's just life in software development. It happens. A lot. To try to pass that responsibility on to the end user by trying to force them to update ... well as Hyperme said above, the only way to force people onto newer versions is auto-updating, which can corrupt worlds, or not allowing it to launch, which prevents access to servers. Or your method of non-disableable (temporary isn't sufficient) user harassment which just irritates people, especially those that need to run a particular version to play on a server.

Basically, this whole situation is a *lot* more complicated than just 'update, it's easy'. There are a lot more variables in the grand scheme of things, especially in the world of modpacks and servers. It's *not* just users being lazy. It's *not* just modpack makers and server owners being lazy. It's not just *you* being lazy. It's all this put together, making for a veritable mess when one tries to force updates.

Sorry. No TL;DR. If I could have simplified it that much, I would have.
 
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SynfulChaot

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Jul 29, 2019
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That is not harassment. A few examples of real harassment I've recieved:

Incorrect. Both are harassment.
Dictionary.com said:
harassment
noun
1. the act or an instance of harassing, or disturbing, pestering, or troubling repeatedly; persecution:

This would fall under the 'disturbing' or 'troubling repeatedly' definitions. Yes, it's not on the same severity as the the 'real' harassment that you've received, but that doesn't change the raw definition of the word.
 
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Hyperme

Popular Member
Apr 3, 2013
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Now, about an idea suggested earlier for a sixth modpack rule, regarding remaining up to date:
The rule would have to read something like the following:
"The pack must make a reasonable effort to remain up-to-date with the latest versions of my mods for the applicable Minecraft version, and understand that no bug reports or other support will be accepted for older versions. If using an old version is unavoidable, you must refrain from making any negative public judgements about the mod on topics of balance, design, performance, stability, or otherwise, as it is very likely your information is out of date and incorrect. Any person caught complaining about the mod when their complaints are nullified by a later version will be penalized and may have to remove the mod from their pack or publicly retract their statements. This responsibility is shared with the pack creator and all users of the pack, something they must be aware of. In the event that the pack stops being maintained, the task of updating falls on people who continue to use it."

Everything I've coloured purple is a bad idea that will fail. You've even managed to bold the dumbest part! What's weird is that you seem like a pretty intelligent guy, but somehow you have crafted, bar-none, the worst modpack term ever seen. Attempting to control what people say about your mod is futile. To start, it's a hilariously impossible task. What are you going to do, spend all your time reading what people say about you mods, in case they're talking about an out-dated version? Will you then meticulously inspect timestamps, to see if the complaints were actually in-date? Also, people not using packs are immune, so the complaints about past versions won't stop. Say hi to Sisyphus for me.

Secondly, if you actually post this officially, you are going to be metaphorically crucified. People already say that you're overly controlling, and all this does is prove them right. There are plenty of people with strong opinions on permissions, and you'll become the go to example for 'control-freak egomaniac mod author' even if that's pretty incorrect. All you'll lose all your reddit points but who cares about that.

Finally, it makes people wonder if you're all there. It's the continuing dissonance of saying "gah users can't even read" combined with a 'I can make users dance on my strings, I totally can' attitude that seems kind of weird at first, then seems a lot weird when you keep doing it. Basically, you need to consider two statements:

"You can bring a horse to water, but cannot make it drink" - Proverb about non-thirsty horses.

"There is a race between mankind and the universe. Mankind is trying to build bigger, better, faster, and more foolproof machines. The universe is trying to build bigger, better, and faster fools. So far the universe is winning." - Albert Einstein, probably.
 
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Strikingwolf

New Member
Jul 29, 2019
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All below is my opinion and does not represent FTB's or the PhoenixTeam's
Everything I've coloured purple is a bad idea that will fail. You've even managed to bold the dumbest part! What's weird is that you seem like a pretty intelligent guy, but somehow you have crafted, bar-none, the worst modpack term ever seen. Attempting to control what people say about your mod is futile. To start, it's a hilariously impossible task. What are you going to do, spend all your time reading what people say about you mods, in case they're talking about an out-dated version? Will you then meticulously inspect timestamps, to see if the complaints were actually in-date? Also, people not using packs are immune, so the complaints about past versions won't stop. Say hi to Sisyphus for me.
  1. The part in purple can be easily fixed by 1, requiring version number in bug reports (may be updated by user). And 2, having a bot that can read the timestamp and the version number (if there is none it auto-deletes). Then the bot can go through and see what is outdated and flag it.
  2. Most people who report these sort of things are using a modpack
  3. You provided no evidence that it is the worst modpack term. You only said it is futile

Secondly, if you actually post this officially, you are going to be metaphorically crucified. People already say that you're overly controlling, and all this does is prove them right. There are plenty of people with strong opinions on permissions, and you'll become the go to example for 'control-freak egomaniac mod author' even if that's pretty incorrect. All you'll lose all your reddit points but who cares about that.
AFAIK @Reika can deal with being "crucified". It has happened before and he can deal with it. Also, even though it pains me to see. He is already seen as the 'control-freak egomaniac mod author'. Something that is both incorrect and just plain terrible to call someone
Finally, it makes people wonder if you're all there. It's the continuing dissonance of saying "gah users can't even read" combined with a 'I can make users dance on my strings, I totally can' attitude that seems kind of weird at first, then seems a lot weird when you keep doing it. Basically, you need to consider two statements:

"You can bring a horse to water, but cannot make it drink" - Proverb about non-thirsty horses.

"There is a race between mankind and the universe. Mankind is trying to build bigger, better, faster, and more foolproof machines. The universe is trying to build bigger, better, and faster fools. So far the universe is winning." - Albert Einstein, probably.
  1. He doesn't say that users can't even read. He says that they do these things. One, they are intimidated by logs. Two, they choose not to read (mainly perms and such). Three, they ignore what is said. And four, they don't know how to read a log. Something that while not very complicated can be intimidating for the average user
  2. No one can make users dance on strings. And I doubt @Reika believes that. But what you can do is try to encourage them to do the right thing. Bringing a horse to water makes it more likely to drink. Even if it doesn't guarantee it
  3. There are always going to be total idiots out there. What you have to do is deal with them appropriately. Don't ignore them, deal with them.
 
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Hyperme

Popular Member
Apr 3, 2013
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  1. The part in purple can be easily fixed by 1, requiring version number in bug reports (may be updated by user). And 2, having a bot that can read the timestamp and the version number (if there is none it auto-deletes). Then the bot can go through and see what is outdated and flag it.
  2. Most people who report these sort of things are using a modpack
  3. You provided no evidence that it is the worst modpack term. You only said it is futile

You appear to be conveniently ignoring the part where "you must refrain from making any negative public judgements about the mod on topics of balance, design, performance, stability, or otherwise, as it is very likely your information is out of date and incorrect. Any person caught complaining about the mod when their complaints are nullified by a later version will be penalized".

That is the psycho-crazy part, which basically says that you forfeit your right to say anything negative about the mod if you don't update. If you'd actually paid attention to my highlighting, you'd also of noticed that I hadn't purpled the part about bug reports, because that was actually reasonable. Reading Comprehension: It's for dinner!
 

Strikingwolf

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Jul 29, 2019
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You appear to be conveniently ignoring the part where "you must refrain from making any negative public judgements about the mod on topics of balance, design, performance, stability, or otherwise, as it is very likely your information is out of date and incorrect. Any person caught complaining about the mod when their complaints are nullified by a later version will be penalized".

That is the psycho-crazy part, which basically says that you forfeit your right to say anything negative about the mod if you don't update. If you'd actually paid attention to my highlighting, you'd also of noticed that I hadn't purpled the part about bug reports, because that was actually reasonable. Reading Comprehension: It's for dinner!
Only if their complaints are nullified.
 

Hyperme

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Apr 3, 2013
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Only if their complaints are nullified.

It still says 'don't write criticism if you don't update!' which is completely unreasonable. What if someone using a pack makes a complaint, not knowing the mod has been updated?

Also we fall back to the 'read and check anything negative about the mods in case they were breaking the terms!' problem.
 

Strikingwolf

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Jul 29, 2019
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It still says 'don't write criticism if you don't update!' which is completely unreasonable. What if someone using a pack makes a complaint, not knowing the mod has been updated?
It isn't unreasonable at all. @Reika needs to know what is wrong with the current version. Not 5 versions back
Also we fall back to the 'read and check anything negative about the mods in case they were breaking the terms!' problem.
And bots.
 

Hyperme

Popular Member
Apr 3, 2013
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It isn't unreasonable at all. @Reika needs to know what is wrong with the current version. Not 5 versions back

Outdated criticism can be a problem. Basically threatening to censor people is not the solution.

And bots.

Good luck writing a bot that correctly:

1. Finds all conversation about certain mods.
2. Determines if said conversation contains "negative public judgements about the mod on topics of balance, design, performance, stability, or otherwise". (warning: slang, metaphors and other such things exist)
3. Identifies if said judgements are out of date.

Remember that people have been working on Natural Language Processing for six decades, and the Turing Test remains unsolved.
 
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