RC/ReC/ElC/CC Policy Changes

Pyure

Not Totally Useless
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I had gotten the exact opposite impression given your repeated statements that the latter would be insufficient and a persistence for a config for the former.

If you really are satisfied with improved containment, and a way to clean radiation in survival, then the conclusion has already been reached. Some containment implementation needs to be created, as does the cleaning, and a config to flatly disable meltdowns is not going to be added.

Sufficient?
Its a matter of scale. My comments on the idea under discussion were that complete loss of a reactor wouldn't work for the target audience, nor would long-term, irrevocable radiation.

However if, through difficulty, trial, cleverness and design a player could potentially segregate his reactor into isolated pieces, (four quadrants, etc), such that it was still a single reactor for the purposes of chain reactions, but you could conceivably lose a part without losing the whole, I'd be left without much grounds for argument. I don't know how you would conceive and implement a design where meltdowns are contained but neutrons are not. SCRAM-initiated barriers perhaps? Loss of efficiency perhaps? Both are good.

On the other hand, if you could only isolate the entire reactor itself from the environment, I'd consider it a battle lost for my personal goals, but still a boon to many players of many playing styles. In this case it wouldn't be a vindictive decision to not use the reactor, it just wouldn't work for my purposes. That said I'd be very happy for the experience it provides for current and future players and consider it a victory for the mod regardless of whether I personally played it.

There is a roadblock here. How do you design it so that the risk allows the majority of players tackle it creatively, while they also do not google designs and do not experiment in creative mode? A step in the right direction is radiation containment and cleaning, which has been brought into this discussion and seems promising.
On the contrary: I've said a few times that segregation and cleansing could work. You've stipulated the scenario perfectly, plasmasnake. I'm not disputing the merits of this idea, I'm correcting the detractors of the config idea.
 
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Reika

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My comments on the idea under discussion were that complete loss of a reactor wouldn't work for the target audience
You do realize that even had I implemented a config to turn off meltdowns, I would not have just made the reactors sit idly if overheated. The reactor would still have largely been lost (or as much as a meltdown would have been).

Also, the loss of a reactor, radiation notwithstanding, is purely material. And if you can afford to make one, you can afford to make another; it is far less severe of a penalty, context-wise, than something like a diamond gearbox exploding early game or a loss of a jet engine.
 

Pyure

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You do realize that even had I implemented a config to turn off meltdowns, I would not have just made the reactors sit idly if overheated. The reactor would still have largely been lost (or as much as a meltdown would have been).
I realize it now that you've told me what you would have done? I don't pretend to assume.

For me the perfect scenario is pieces of the reactor transforming into corium or otherwise becoming useless, forcing the player to either replace or repair them. In a standard gaming world where you can just plonk down a quarry (boring machine) and replace the lost materials, this is, in and of itself, a non-issue. The notwithstanding clause here would be the radiation effects which you're looking into providing "work to solve" solutions to.

Also, the loss of a reactor, radiation notwithstanding, is purely material. And if you can afford to make one, you can afford to make another; it is far less severe of a penalty, context-wise, than something like a diamond gearbox exploding early game or a loss of a jet engine.
In the majority of cases, all of this is true.
 
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1M Industries

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I dunno that I've ever heard of that one before (corn allergy).
Yeah, in my case it is not a fun one. It acts like an anaesthetic on top of regular allergy symptoms. I fall asleep for about 2 hours, and wake up stuffy and congested with eyes that look like mars. Fun.
 

keybounce

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Quick experiment: Calculate the maximum vanilla power output from a line of redstone and a button
  • 16 pistons [signal length]
  • lifting 12 blocks each [192 m³ total]
  • of gold (the highest density "real" material) [19,300 kg/m³]
  • through a vertical height of 1m in less than a second.

Maybe the pistons are just a massively coiled spring, that on redstone signals just release all the stored energy and push it all? We know that an (older) industrial coil could store a massive amount of energy, and a big spring-loaded pusher plate with that much power might be able to do something like that.

... Ehh, ok, so I have no clue about the 12 block limit either. It's not like a piston system could keep going forever once started, right? ... Oh, right, redstone blocks ...

"Magic!".

There's a steam generator that consumes water and produces power. Theoretically it also consumes heat, but no heat is actually consumed: you just need an adjacent heat source block. Again, its a really cool idea, and I'm really fond of the rendering, but in a perfect world, that heat source wouldn't be infinite. Thermodynamics etc etc.

Now, now, the steam generator does not consume heat, not even in the real world. If I take a pot of water, and put a gas flame under it, it will generate steam without putting out the flame, and the presence/absense of the pot has no effect.

I could put wood under the steam generator, and a fire, and the fire will consume the wood and go out. That's a perfectly reasonable, "Realistic" way -- of course, minecraft flammability is much faster than real-life flammability.

Or, I could go off to a hell-like place, grab a piece of hellrock, and bring it back. Infinite flame. "Magic!".

Lava: Minecraft lava does not cool down. #BlameNotch.
So infinite heat lava plus cooling fins is just fine.

Or, depending on the mods and desired transfer methods, a World Rift, a long wire, and more.

Reminds me of something I learned about in 1.1 / 125: instant-wire. A way to send a redstone signal any distance in one tick by using piston retraction. Fun. Until I switched my world to SMP to play with friends ... 125 single player was the last time instant-wire worked properly. (Might be fixed in 1.8 by now).

Long wires to send data? Instant-pulses and decoders? Yea, just ... not anymore.

How do you design it so that the risk allows the majority of players tackle it creatively, while they also do not google designs and do not experiment in creative mode?

In fairness, reactor craft scares me. Given the lack of understanding and knowledge on my part, the large perceived risk of failure, and such, I would either google designs (that are now broken, and worthless), or test in a throw-away creative world because Risk!.

This is part of why I don't play with it. (The other part: I have no use for that much power.)
 
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Pyure

Not Totally Useless
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Now, now, the steam generator does not consume heat, not even in the real world. If I take a pot of water, and put a gas flame under it, it will generate steam without putting out the flame, and the presence/absense of the pot has no effect.
I'm not sure if you're trying to play semantic games with my use of the word "consumes?" Of course heat energy is transferred into the water to create steam. That energy is of course lost from the original source, which is, in this case, inexhaustible.

I think I understand your fundamental point though. The heat is generated by fire, and fire requires fuel, heat and a chemical reaction. If you like, I'll amend my concern to "the steam generator consumes water and generates steam via an inexhaustible heat source."
 

Celestialphoenix

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Tartarus.. I mean at work. Same thing really.
In fairness, reactor craft scares me. Given the lack of understanding and knowledge on my part, the large perceived risk of failure, and such, I would either google designs (that are now broken, and worthless), or test in a throw-away creative world because Risk!.

In that case the solution is understanding, or at least a few more sources to provide understanding of the failsafe mechanisms (like SCRAM and temperature monitoring) as well as what it takes to trigger a meltdown [heat buildup- which takes time]- so even when experimenting in world players would know how to prevent a meltdown even if they don't quite know the "how to" with reactor design.

The perceived risk feels a lot higher than the actual risk, because people tend to focus on the magnitude of a hazard a lot more than the likelihood of it happening.
I'll be honest the infrastructure design (can I make it produce something useful) worries me more than the actual reactor.

This is part of why I don't play with it. (The other part: I have no use for that much power.)

Try a smaller reactor. I've heard a few good things about HTGR (pebble beds) reactors.
From my limited understanding, I think they only melt if they get too hot [apparently no radioactivity].
 
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Pyure

Not Totally Useless
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Try a smaller reactor. I've heard a few good things about HTGR (pebble beds) reactors.
From my limited understanding, I think they only melt if they get too hot [apparently no radioactivity].
This in zero ways helps with the safety concerns, but breeder reactors are one of the most satisfying things to assemble in all mods everywhere.

Pretend zero is underlined a whole bunch of times: I sadfaced my base several times.
 
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TomeWyrm

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inexhaustible
Blame Notch™
Netherrack burns forever. That's not the steam engine's fault. Heck you want less realistic? Notice how many 1 m^3 blocks can fit into a 1m^3 block in item form? In vanilla.

Fire that won't consume its fuel is nothing compared to the handwavium that infests item/block/storage/encumbrance.


I dunno that I've ever heard of that one before (corn allergy).
I was allergic to 33 different foods as a child; most of them minor/cumulative though. The exception being nuts of all stripes from chestnuts through walnuts all the way to peanuts (yes, I know that's a nut, a drupe, and a legume. Blame culinary nomenclature and my being allergic to basically every non-meat foodstuff), those I had very VERY strong reactions to.

Corn, apples, peas, carrots, barley, rice, wheat, cow milk, oranges, peas, grapes... and a lot of other things I just can't remember. My diet was a constant revolving door to limit exposure to my allergens. It was very much not fun, and I think that is probably why I like eating the same thing repeatedly now. It's also why I like bovine milk so much... goat milk is just... ugh.

I still can't eat sweet corn straight. No other corn bothers me, and I can eat sweet corn when it's an ingredient in a casserole, stew, or what have you. But eating corn on the cob, creamed corn, or corn kernels (like they come in a can)? I regurgitate my meal within a half hour. Cornmeal is fine, I can eat corn flakes, I can enjoy polenta/grits, tortillas are great. It's just sweet corn, and only as a primary dish. Seeing as how I don't like those service methods much anyway, I've never tried to fix it :p
 

Pyure

Not Totally Useless
Aug 14, 2013
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Blame Notch™
Netherrack burns forever. That's not the steam engine's fault. Heck you want less realistic? Notice how many 1 m^3 blocks can fit into a 1m^3 block in item form? In vanilla.
Fire that won't consume its fuel is nothing compared to the handwavium that infests item/block/storage/encumbrance.
Oh I get this, and believe me. And its not just Netherrack, which you can wave away with the Magic of Minecraftia, but also other heat sources (lava). Its simply not my preference to appreciate machines that are theoretically realistic (steam, heat, energy, etc) but actually take advantage of a critical thermodynamic blind spot.

I don't really see much in the way of ways around this, and its only an issue for specific play styles like mine, I just file it under Sucky Things That Make Pyure Sad.
 

Celestialphoenix

Too Much Free Time
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Tartarus.. I mean at work. Same thing really.
This in zero ways helps with the safety concerns, but breeder reactors are one of the most satisfying things to assemble in all mods everywhere.
Pretend zero is underlined a whole bunch of times: I sadfaced my base several times

As confirmed by Reika himself, this reactor type produces no radiation effect.
So please elaborate on how that was 'zero ways to help with safety concerns' when your main safety concern was about the long term radiation effects of a meltdown.
 

Pyure

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Please elaborate on how that was 'zero ways to help with safety concerns' when your main safety concern was about the long term radiation effects of a meltdown.
I'm not 100% sure I understand your concern. I think you may be confusing my personal playing styles with the audience I'm targeting for a possible modpack?

Personally I only play hardmode gregtech games these days, with all explosions, wirefires and so forth enabled. These work fine in my current worlds, but wouldn't work in my modpack. If you've ever gotten the "Time to Move" achievement (I have), its important that you at least have somewhere to move to. And in my case, you don't.

For another, I restored my game from backups endlessly because of those reactors. All for science of course, I was constantly trying weird things. I felt like a massive cheater though, and save/reload isn't a traditional part of the Minecraft experience.

Edit: I just noticed you tweaked your post. I'm not referring to radiation, I'm talking about a molten salt reactor blowing its top.
 
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keybounce

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As for the lack of "realism" in basics such as lava never cooling, netherrack never being consumed, etc -- at the least, I can (and plan to) use finite water.

CCC has a setting to just stop the water source blocks from mutiplying. I don't know how well that will work with RoC pipes -- the whole issue of "there's no water source over here anymore".

Flowing water would solve that, but it currently fails to work with Cofh (both mods are trying to ASM the same class.)

Lava cooling when exposed to air? ... Might be an interesting mod idea
 
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Strikingwolf

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Someone should make a thermodynamics mod...that takes a good amount of computational power though...