RC/ReC/ElC/CC Policy Changes

[Pyure]

But... they are... simple and reasonable.

I'll be frank with you, and it might comes across as hostile over the internet, but it doesn't make any sense to be against the rules put in place, nor to be against the negligible effort of writing 5 short phrases in your own words. Phrases you can message him at any time you like and through PM, a post on a thread, and even other sites plus you only have to write them out if you plan on making a public pack. As I have said, you aren't handing over any of your rights... you are just saying essentially that you will not commit a 'crime', so to speak.

It could not be more easier to do and the effort required is so small that I need scientific notation to express it. Personally, I feel like we are turning a mole hill into a mountain on this case.

On the other case on modifying the mods using tools like minetweaker, the rules thus far are both reasonable and good-willed. These rules also, as far as I understand it, only need to be complied with if you plan on making a public pack and/or add documentation on wikis or whatnot. In addition, it shouldn't be unreasonable for a mod author to disallow the altering of his work past the tools he provides. Since they are not public domain, we cannot assume that anybody can make changes to the work in any they see fit in every situation just because the work is available for download on the internet... it does not work like that.

I think the underlying problem here is that many just do not understand the unique situation that both Reika and his mods fall under. Changing recipes on certain items or machines can negatively impact the mod drastically and you can easily unbalance for the worse the entire mod with a single change. To combat this, there are restrictions put in place not to be there for the sake of restriction or some other negative purpose, but rather meant to prevent unintended screw-ups that can quite literally destroy the entire pack and worlds people play on. It requires effort on both ends and for good reason. Reika's big mods aren't Thermal Expansion Pt2 or Thaumcraft Color Edition, they are totally unique experiences and must be treated using different methods.

To end this, I want to reiterate that I am not going for a hostile tone of voice here. I think that we should be discussing how to better implement these upcoming changes and making them as good as possible, instead of turning this thread into a massive argument over the virtue of the rules.

Stuff like what is on the bottom of Psy's post #207.

No hostility perceived at all, and thanks for being cautious about it

You can certainly make the argument that the rules are simple and reasonable. To me the problem is that they're making me perform a ritual on something I'm not accustomed to performing a ritual about. That said, I can get over that so long as Reika's the only privileged modder who does it.

Pointform problems with the rules:
1) Rules that impede modding in a modding community are unfriendly to the community
2) Reika sometimes has a sketchy view of game design that he doesn't like to lighten up on. Changes in these areas are critically necessary to some packs.
3) Reika risks losing control over this niche.

Regarding #2: This is specifically game design. Not simulation, nor coding, nor any number of other things at which he excels.

Regarding #3: There are at least a couple of modders I'm aware of who have been floating the notion of forgoing the whole ordeal and rebuilding Reactor/RotaryCraft from scratch as an open mod.

When I say rebuilding those mods, I mean creating a mod that has rotational power, boring machines, extractors, reactors, and most of the rest of the RoC/ReC machines we're familiar with, but with an open codebase and community-friendly rules. This whole notion is the worst-case scenario because I dislike the idea of division in the rotational-power niche.

That said, an argument I sometimes hear is "if you don't like the mod the way it is, don't use it", to which I have to reply, "If you're not providing what I want, don't be upset when I create what I want." And imitation is a fine form of flattery of course.

That's an amazing thing about modding, and game design in general: stubbornness is never, ever allowed to stifle creativity.

 

[Reika]

Yes, exactly. Just as I am already prohibited from selling or claiming authorship of your copyrighted work by a huge body of intellectual property law and precedent. Whether I agree in writing or not is entirely irrelevant.

You are conflating the rules and license again.

Taking assets or code is indeed illegal, and that is on my license, not the pack rules. The only thing the pack rules have on that topic is claiming credit, something (stupidly, I would argue) is not actually against any rules unless I explicitly forbid it myself.

It's both. The restaurant already has the right to ask me to leave their property if I become disruptive. I know this, and the restaurant owner knows this. Requiring a verbal confirmation serves no purpose other than to establish an adversarial posture. There are better ways to seek my cooperation in managing the noise level.

....Evidently you have not often, if ever, seen a situation like this play out in the real world. People like the ones I described tend to get even more disruptive when asked to stop being disruptive, saying things like "It's a free country" or "I have free speech" and not infrequently have to be removed by security or law enforcement.

Think about it this way: You already offer the mods and their source code for any random person to download and use without any kind of authorization or written statement. Surely you expect that those people, who vastly outnumber the public pack authors, will not steal or profit from your work, right? Of course you do, and your protections consist of copyright law and your software license, just like every other mod dev. So what makes you think those protections no longer apply when someone is integrating your mods with others in a pack?

I never said they did not, and that is why I do not make pack authors explicitly agree to my license.

When someone tells you they're going to sue you, it is a bluff 100% of the time. If a legal proceeding is actually intended, the first thing you'll get is a letter from an attorney with a set of demands and a timeline for satisfaction of those demands. If the demands aren't met, a lawsuit might then be filed. Anyone with the means to engage in a lawsuit wouldn't bother with the threats unless they were intentionally bluffing, hoping to get you to back down at no cost to them. Anyone without the means... doesn't have the means to do anything but bluff.

One, people often do make threats beforehand in order to skip the legal phases, which are time-consuming and possibly expensive for both parties. They do this in the hopes of an out-of-court settlement. This is doubly true if they know that their legal case is not particularly strong, because often the defendant will panic and pay out just to end the proceedings.
Two, the original person did intend to seek legal action, and what is more, @wolfenstein19 says he knows who he was, and that he does this on a regular basis and usually gets the payout he demands.
Three, even if all of what you said was true without exception, I still want a legal defence, which is what my license - which again, I do not make people explicitly agree to - covers.

There are at least a couple of modders I'm aware of who have been floating the notion of forgoing the whole ordeal and rebuilding Reactor/RotaryCraft from scratch as an open mod.

When I say rebuilding those mods, I mean creating a mod that has rotational power, boring machines, extractors, reactors, and most of the rest of the RoC/ReC machines we're familiar with, but with an open codebase and community-friendly rules. This whole notion is the worst-case scenario because I dislike the idea of division in the rotational-power niche.

You are the only one I see consistently mentioning that - with phrasing that almost makes it sound like you encourage it - something I find hard to reconcile with your claims of being "on my side".

Also, anyone willing to pull the rug out from under me like that - making another shaft power mod is one thing, but a clone is quite another - already has well crossed the line of what is ethical and/or "amicable". That is, the only motivation I can see for anyone totally cloning the mod, given the work required and the probable drama storm, is one of malice, and a person like that is not going to stop if I open the permissions; they are likely to continue so long as I remain the developer of my mods because that is fundamentally where they have a problem.

Furthermore, should any such clone use any of my code or assets, at that point they are in violation of copyright law. I know a large fraction of this community deeply despises that concept, but that nonetheless is leverage I will use if cornered like that.

 

[Pyure]

You are the only one I see consistently mentioning that - with phrasing that almost makes it sound like you encourage it - something I find hard to reconcile with your claims of being "on my side".

Also, anyone willing to pull the rug out from under me like that - making another shaft power mod is one thing, but a clone is quite another - already has well crossed the line of what is ethical and/or "amicable". That is, the only motivation I can see for anyone totally cloning the mod, given the work required and the probable drama storm, is one of malice, and a person like that is not going to stop if I open the permissions; they are likely to continue so long as I remain the developer of my mods because that is fundamentally where they have a problem.

Furthermore, should any such clone use any of my code or assets, at that point they are in violation of copyright law. I know a large fraction of this community deeply despises that concept, but that nonetheless is leverage I will use if cornered like that.

Anyone emulating your mod will not be pulling out the rug from under you. This was not the case with Red Power, or the millions of Agrarian Skies clones, or anything else that takes an existing idea and tweaks it. That's how creation happens. Obviously, as a professional developer myself, I recognize the threat it presents to me, but that's a personal issue when I just don't know if I can stand up to the competition.

You clearly feel differently. Your argument is that you think its unethical. Fine. I have a neighbor who thinks anyone who doesn't believe in in a specific religious faith is unethical. I give protectionism the exact same level of concern.

And as a professional developer obviously I don't recommend or suggest or condone anyone stealing code. Above and beyond that I wouldn't even condone stealing developmental structure (e.g how you break down your classes, support, assets, etc).

But to virtually clone the front end and ideas? That happens all the time in game design. Its not only permitted and condoned, its encouraged. Its a good thing. Its a beautiful thing. And the nice thing is that it doesn't even endanger your mod at all because it specifically appeals to the people who want what your mod isn't providing.

And I don't know of anybody wanting to do such a thing because of you personally. You have nothing to do with it. You're just an obstacle saying "you're not allowed to have the mod you want."

 

[Reika]

Anyone emulating your mod will not be pulling out the rug from under you. This was not the case with Red Power

And right here is where you hit a wall.

Redpower was dead when it got cloned. It got cloned because there was no alternative to its content. What you are suggesting is more like if someone had cloned Redpower in 1.1 or similar because they did not like part of her mod.

And I don't know of anybody wanting to do such a thing because of you personally. You have nothing to do with it. You're just an obstacle saying "you're not allowed to have the mod you want."

I do not say that, and making a clone is not required to satisfy that.

Someone making a clone and redistributing it is clearly not only doing it for their own gameplay, because offering it for download gives them absolutely nothing. If they do that, they actually intend to replace me.

Additionally, the fact I have no restrictions whatsoever on singleplayer modifications makes making a clone totally unnecessary, so if anyone is making a clone, they have other intents in mind.

 

[Pyure]

And right here is where you hit a wall.

Redpower was dead when it got cloned. It got cloned because there was no alternative to its content.

That's half-reasonable with regards to RP. The other half persists because it doesn't explain any other cloning of creativity that happens.

What you are suggesting is more like if someone had cloned Redpower in 1.1 or similar because they did not like part of her mod.

This would be a perfectly ethical and good thing to do. You can word it all you like so that it sounds like someone is doing something outrageous, but at the end of the day, someone created a product, someone else wanted a similar product but with a minor change, and that's how products evolve.

Addressing your edits:
I need to be clear on this: when you're being particularly stubborn I almost wish someone would just go and clone the damn thing and be done with it. But you are making a strong effort. I think you've met the community halfway. I appreciate that.

But if they make that clone and make it downloadable, that's not an attack, and its not to replace you. Its to do exactly what you've done: Minecraft isn't good enough as is, so I'm tweaking it and sharing it with others. What you're providing isn't what some specific people want, period.

Edit
@Reika, can you please re-read what you wrote here and clarify? I don't think you can even justify this comment. It actually makes no sense:

Someone making a clone and redistributing it is clearly not only doing it for their own gameplay, because offering it for download gives them absolutely nothing. If they do that, they actually intend to replace me.

It flies in the face of all logic that a person cannot, without intended malice, create a virtual clone and provide it to people who want that clone.

 

[Reika]

But if they make that clone and make it downloadable, that's not an attack, and its not to replace you. Its to do exactly what you've done: Minecraft isn't good enough as is, so I'm tweaking it and sharing it with others. What you're providing isn't what some specific people want, period.

Again, I am not talking about someone making something so they can play in a slightly different way. You and others have repeatedly said someone making a clone of my mods with the intent of them being used instead, not just by themselves but by everyone. If this is not the definition of "replacing me", I cannot imagine what is.

In longer form:
This is not about someone making a clone for personal use, or for their server, or something like that. I have little, if any objection to that. This is about people making clones for general-purpose use, things like future iterations of packs like Monster, or to be able to go and tell all those "on the fence" people "do not bother with RotaryCraft, I've got an open version instead that is basically identical but with open permissions!". I literally cannot imagine any motivation for doing that other than forcing me out, because the only forseeable "gain" from doing this is driving down my userbase to nothing.

 

[wolfenstein19]

One, people often do make threats beforehand in order to skip the legal phases, which are time-consuming and possibly expensive for both parties. They do this in the hopes of an out-of-court settlement. This is doubly true if they know that their legal case is not particularly strong, because often the defendant will panic and pay out just to end the proceedings.
Two, the original person did intend to seek legal action, and what is more, @wolfenstein19 says he knows who he was, and that he does this on a regular basis and usually gets the payout he demands.
Three, even if all of what you said was true without exception, I still want a legal defence, which is what my license - which again, I do not make people explicitly agree to - covers.

Its true, there exist loads of people who actively threaten litigation and find out just how much you are willing to pay to actually avoid a legal case. There is also companys that do this on an Industrial scale.

 

[Pyure]

This is not about someone making a clone for personal use, or for their server, or something like that. I have little, if any objection to that. This is about people making clones for general-purpose use, things like future iterations of packs like Monster, or to be able to go and tell all those "on the fence" people "do not bother with RotaryCraft, I've got an open version instead that is basically identical but with open permissions!". I literally cannot imagine any motivation for doing that other than forcing me out, because the only forseeable "gain" from doing this is driving down my userbase to nothing.

...I'm going to say this in the most sensitive way I can because I'm genuinely a bit concerned here.

I need you to consider how long it would take someone to clone RoC and just RoC. For fun, assume they have full knowledge of your mods. Assume they have access to your github for reference. Assume they illegally decompile your API and reverse engineer any magical functions they need.

How many hundreds of man-hours do you think are still remaining?

Is it your real and serious concern that people would conspire to spend those hours as a big middle finger to you?

If so I don't think I have the professional background to help you with this. I can tell you till I'm blue in the face that they did it because they and their friends want a specific gameplay experience, but I think I'm getting a better understanding of why you retain all those flames and rants and walls of shame.

If your userbase dwindles, its because your product wasn't as popular. I don't foresee that being the case. You have a niche of primarily educated players who aren't especially interested in a dumbed down version of something. But it could happen, and if it happened, you need to understand that its not because anyone's out to get you, its because that's the way the world works.

 

[Reika]

...I'm going to say this in the most sensitive way I can because I'm genuinely a bit concerned here.

I need you to consider how long it would take someone to clone RoC and just RoC. For fun, assume they have full knowledge of your mods. Assume they have access to your github for reference. Assume they illegally decompile your API and reverse engineer any magical functions they need.

How many hundreds of man-hours do you think are still remaining?

Quite a lot. I know.

Is it your real and serious concern that people would conspire to spend those hours as a big middle finger to you?

Most? No. But some would, yes

If so I don't think I have the professional background to help you with this. I can tell you till I'm blue in the face that they did it because they and their friends want a specific gameplay experience, but I think I'm getting a better understanding of why you retain all those flames and rants and walls of shame.

If your userbase dwindles, its because your product wasn't as popular. I don't foresee that being the case. You have a niche of primarily educated players who aren't especially interested in a dumbed down version of something. But it could happen, and if it happened, you need to understand that its not because anyone's out to get you, its because that's the way the world works.

I get the feeling I have not made my point clear. In the scenario I am describing, the maker of the clone, or its advocates, would not just be going to people who have issues with the current mod. They would be going to everyone, including my current players.

 

[Pyure]

Most? No. But some would, yes

No, Reika. Zero. Nobody. Not a single person in the entire world, among the billions, is both willing and able to commit the resources to this endeavor. Not as a screw-you.

This is really easily provable: They haven't done it.

And anyone who has ever speculated about cloning RoC in my hearing has only ever referenced the things they feel are missing from the mod, and at the end of the day its just not worth the effort to do it when you keep progressing towards a more community-friendly stance anyway. Understand? Community=good.

I get the feeling I have not made my point clear. In the scenario I am describing, the maker of the clone, or its advocates, would not just be going to people who have issues with the current mod. They would be going to everyone, including my current players.

Your point is very clear. What you're missing, and what I alluded to, is that your current (potential) players fit into three crowds:
1) people who are very happy with what you're offering and won't budge
2) people who are content but wish they had something that suited them better. In this case these are your "current players" who "have issues with the current mod."
And 3), people who have zero interest in your mods and don't play them.

Hopefully there aren't a lot of people in (2), but its fair for them to be drawn to something they enjoy better, and its not fair for you to begrudge them for it.

Hopefully some people from crowd-3 would check it out, and that just brings more people into the rotational-energy niche period.

 

[Reika]

No, Reika. Zero. Nobody. Not a single person in the entire world, among the billions, is both willing and able to commit the resources to this endeavor. Not as a screw-you.

Considering more than one person has done things like trash their long-built reputation, get banned from sites, or even risk jail time to harass me....


Did I ever tell the story of the guy who reported me to the FBI?

 

[RedBoss]

Considering more than one person has done things like trash their long-built reputation, get banned from sites, or even risk jail time to harass me....


Did I ever tell the story of the guy who reported me to the FBI?

I don't care.

 

[Reika]

I don't care.

I am making a counterpoint to @Pyure's point - the point that noone is willing to go to any great length to harass me - and the story is a piece of evidence for it. I can understand not wanting to hear it, but saying "I don't care" comes off as - whether this is your intention or not - "I don't care if you have evidence to back your point up, I'm going to ignore it then still call your position unsupported".

 

[duckfan77]

I don't recall that story, but I may have missed it.

 

[HeilMewTwo]

Okay, I think this thread has run its course. It's to the point where we have users just outright ignoring Reika's posts.

 

[TomeWyrm]

I'm going to say this twice, once at the beginning here, and once at the end. This is clarification on a debate point. I personally do not support someone creating a competing RotaryCraft open-source clone. I think it is a reprehensible act with the mod still active.

Same here on the story. It's relevant to the point, but kinda getting really far afield from the topic at hand (and will likely fit right in with the What Not To Do wall, why not share it there?).

And you've got one thing off Reika. Copyright protects your IMPLEMENTATION, the SPECIFIC recipe that makes your creation yours. NONE of the ingredient/component ideas are protected unless they are unique and specifically protected. If that was the default, then nobody could make a game that's like D&D... heck D&D couldn't have formed because Christopher Tolkien STILL holds the rights to the entire LOTR IP. I can provide hundreds or THOUSANDS of examples from various disciplines that prove you wrong on that point Reika. Your individual ideas are free game so long as a "reasonable person" would not assume they're the same. Even in a massive aggregate. There have been remakes and re-dos for multiple mods; Soul Shards? There have been 2 remakes. EE2? Meet ProjectE. There are 6 different Frame mods now. Most of the core tech mod concepts spawned from IndustrialCraft. The Simply Jetpacks fiasco proves that the community will uphold that concept.

If someone wants to make a realistic mod using rotational power that utilizes bedrock tools, with open permissions? As long as they don't steal your code, your class structure, or your art assets? They are doing nothing illegal. Possibly dishonest, arguably unethical, very likely adversarial, but legal and accomplished before many times in the history of this very mod community (among many others), admittedly never on a currently active mod that I can recall, but if someone holds a belief structure hard enough? There are no lengths to which they will not go, and open source is practically a religion complete with its zealots. If someone wants your mods open source, has the skill, and the time? They WILL make that mod. Not as a middle finger to you, but simply because the product YOU supply does not meet THEIR personal requirements and they have the means and opportunity to do so. That is why we have dozens of car companies, and hundreds of fast food burger joints. Because someone thought they could do it better, tried, and succeeded at filling their niche better. They won't be trying to steal your fans away, they'll be trying to fill a gap that people aren't having filled by you. You're only losing dissatisfied users and people that would never have used your mods in the first place.

Once again: This was a clarification on a debate point. I personally do not support someone creating a competing RotaryCraft open-source clone. I think it is a reprehensible act with the mod still active.

 

[Reika]

And you've got one thing off Reika. Copyright protects your IMPLEMENTATION, the SPECIFIC recipe that makes your creation yours. NONE of the ingredient/component ideas are protected unless they are unique and specifically protected.

I never said otherwise.

 

[Pyure]

Considering more than one person has done things like trash their long-built reputation, get banned from sites, or even risk jail time to harass me....


Did I ever tell the story of the guy who reported me to the FBI?

I won't be surprised if there's tons of that crap going on, but that's a tiny drop in the puddle compared to trying to recreate your mods.

All of those things require a considerable amount of stupidity and malice. To recreate your mods requires a great deal of time, intellect and proficiency in programming, minecraft and modding.

The only reason anyone would spend that time is if they hope to get something material out of it, above and beyond what you're willing to provide.

 

[Hyperme]

Considering more than one person has done things like trash their long-built reputation, get banned from sites, or even risk jail time to harass me....

Did I ever tell the story of the guy who reported me to the FBI?

This is all pretty crazy! But the thing is, none of this really involves the amount of effort needed to clone RotaryCraft. No sane person is going to commit hours and hours of their time programming just to spite you. They'll probably get so far, then realize what they're doing is kind of ridiculous, and stop. It takes like a minute to pose 'reika is the censorship' on reddit. It takes a lot more time and effort to make something like RotaryCraft.

Also, you can't mention someone reporting you to the FBI and not tell the story! I mean the basics are probably 'reika stops thing he doesn't allow, internet people cry to police for some reason', but still.

 

[RedBoss]

There's FBI reports now, people wanting to copy the mod, and various other forms of witch hunting. This is so far off from policy changes that it indicates an end to any rational discourse concerning the original topic.

Add to that we've have numerous replies from noted modpack authors, mod devs, experienced server admins, & seasoned players. Nothing has changed. Their arguments were met with opposition. Case closed.

Let's close this thread please.