Politics Discussion

[trajing]

the universe works on logic.

Quantum phenomena are actually pretty much as random as you can get, even more so than Random.org's system (although determinists contest this, but we won't open that can of worms).

 

[Strikingwolf]

Quantum phenomena are actually pretty much as random as you can get, even more so than Random.org's system (although determinists contest this, but we won't open that can of worms).

Randomness is fundamentally logical (albeit in a weird way). But yes quantum phenomena is pretty much the only truly random thing in the universe

 

[psp]

How about we turn to a new topic? One, because we are getting off topic, two, we are all at an impasse, all that is said has been stated.

 

[trajing]

Time to be called an idealistic moron!
Suppose, if you will, a society much like our own, in a future that may be possible but is somewhat far off and unlikely. We have workable cures for nearly anything, and what's remaining (eg cancer) we have workable treatments for with reasonable rates of survival. Now, suppose this (nearly identical) problem (which is ambiguous because I don't want to look up a ton of illnesses):
You have item A, which can be used to save the lives of one of these people:

1. An otherwise healthy person
2. A person with illness B, which is debilitating but curable
3. A person with illness C, which is one of the few illnesses that we do not have an absolute cure for, but takes a while to act and [Person 3] is currently still doing well

Who would you save? (woo new trolley problem, everyone!)

I'd like more responses to this.
Also, after your first response, throw the following variables into the mix:

• Person A is poor
• Person B is rich
• Person C is middle-class

 

[Strikingwolf]

I'd like more responses to this.
Also, after your first response, throw the following variables into the mix:

• Person A is poor
• Person B is rich
• Person C is middle-class

I really need more info

Like I need to know everything about these people and have a ton of computational power

 

[psp]

I really need more info

Like I need to know everything about these people and have a ton of computational power

I'll lend you my computer if you want to use it to help compute?

<--- This is my computer.

 

[Strikingwolf]

Related

 

[SolManX]

Old people have very little left ahead of them, and what they have ahead of them, no offence, is unlikely to ever benefit anyone ever.

I'm not religious, but a quote comes to mind ... "Forgive them, father, they know not what they do".

 

[jordsta95]

@CoolSquid let me make the argument of human life's value easier to understand so maybe you can understand a little easier.

You are driving home from you son's football game, and you told you friend that you'd pick his kid up too, because he couldn't get there.
As you are driving home, you come to bridge, you are halfway across when a lorry comes out of nowhere and you swerve to avoid it.
Your car is now balancing on the edge if this bridge. The two children are in the back scared. You can only save one of them, do you save your son, or do you save your friend's son. And why?

 

[Celestialphoenix]

@CoolSquid let me make the argument of human life's value easier to understand so maybe you can understand a little easier.

You are driving home from your son's football game, and you told you friend that you'd pick his kid up too, because he couldn't get there.
As you are driving home, you come to bridge, you are halfway across when a lorry comes out of nowhere and you swerve to avoid it.
Your car is now balancing on the edge if this bridge. The two children are in the back scared. You can only save one of them, do you save your son, or do you save your friend's son. And why?

At the time of the accident- you wouldn't know how long you have, and that you only have time to save one of them.
I would rescue the easiest child to get to first, thus giving more time [unknowingly in vain] to rescue the other child.

 

[SolManX]

@CoolSquid let me make the argument of human life's value easier to understand so maybe you can understand a little easier.

You are driving home from you son's football game, and you told you friend that you'd pick his kid up too, because he couldn't get there.
As you are driving home, you come to bridge, you are halfway across when a lorry comes out of nowhere and you swerve to avoid it.
Your car is now balancing on the edge if this bridge. The two children are in the back scared. You can only save one of them, do you save your son, or do you save your friend's son. And why?

There's no right or wrong answer and people will react to such an exceptional situation by instinct, mistake or whatever. Let's not decide 'policy' based on exceptions.

Anyway, doctors make these life and death decisions all the time - who gets the next donated kidney, for example, or who gets treatment under triage conditions? But those decisions will be made on objective clinical grounds as to who will benefit the most, not on crass arbitrary rules like age or disability. Obviously those factors will come into their decisions, but they won't be the only criteria.

 

[Strikingwolf]

Anyway, doctors make these life and death decisions all the time - who gets the next donated kidney, for example, or who gets treatment under triage conditions? But those decisions will be made on objective clinical grounds as to who will benefit the most, not on crass arbitrary rules like age or disability. Obviously those factors will come into their decisions, but they won't be the only criteria.

That is what we are saying. Who will benefit the most in years and quality of life. The child without the condition

 

[SolManX]

That is what we are saying. Who will benefit the most in years and quality of life. The child without the condition

Qualified doctors make those decisions on a case-by-case basis, not on a pre-determined arbitrary formula. It's a relative thing, not an absolute.

 

[Strikingwolf]

Qualified doctors make those decisions on a case-by-case basis, not on a pre-determined arbitrary formula. It's a relative thing, not an absolute.

Everything is determined by formula, your brain operates on the logical operators and is a computer...

 

[trajing]

Everything is determined by formula, your brain operates on the logical operators and is a computer...

If our brain fundamentally operated on logic, then there would be no ethics problems, as logic would point to one (and only one) solution.

 

[Strikingwolf]

If our brain fundamentally operated on logic, then there would be no ethics problems, as logic would point to one (and only one) solution.

It operates fundamentally on logic, but the outside environment affects the brain, how you are raised and social constructs. Logic doesn't point to one and only one solution all the time. If you take input in a program on a computer the computers can reach different results

 

[trajing]

It operates fundamentally on logic, but the outside environment affects the brain, how you are raised and social constructs. Logic doesn't point to one and only one solution all the time. If you take input in a program on a computer the computers can reach different results

There'd still only be one "correct" solution. ⅓ + ⅓ + ⅓ will always equal 1, no matter whatever something you run it on says.

 

[Strikingwolf]

There'd still only be one "correct" solution. ⅓ + ⅓ + ⅓ will always equal 1, no matter whatever something you run it on says.

No no no. Let's say two computers in different places measure the temperature. They then add two temps from different days in these places, they would achieve different answers because they are in a different environment

 

[SolManX]

Everything is determined by formula ...

I said a pre-determined absolute formula. Like stopping treatment to a person when they reach a certain age.

And I'm not sure your absolute choice that the disabled child should not get treatment over an able bodied child holds water logically anyway. What if the disabled child grows up and discovers a cure for cancer? What if the able bodied child grows up to be a serial killer.

your brain operates on the logical operators and is a computer.

That's an assertion that would require some solid evidence, imho.

 

[Strikingwolf]

I said a pre-determined absolute formula. Like stopping treatment to a person when they reach a certain age.

It is pre-determined, it just takes input from the outside world. It is a formula, just with input

And I'm not sure your absolute choice that the disabled child should not get treatment over an able bodied child holds water logically anyway. What if the disabled child grows up and discovers a cure for cancer? What if the able bodied child grows up to be a serial killer.

That is why I said I would need to know everything about these people and be able to compute with absolute certainty who would make a better contribution to society

That's an assertion that would require some solid evidence, imho.

Your brain operates on electricity, that's it. It is a computer, we can make the human brain with computers. It would require an immense amount of computational power, but it's possible

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