Offer to support modders (with money).

[Hammerson]

A while back I posted an offer on reddit's /r/feedthebeast and on the technic forums, to support with Flattr payments any mod that is distributed without adf.ly. I forgot to post it here. Since it's the end of October now, and flattr payments are disbursed monthly, I thought it was a good time to correct that.

I firmly believe in supporting people who create stuff that I get to enjoy for free. I intend to do that right now, in fact.

But I don't enjoy or believe in doing it through adf.ly. Adf.ly, if I don't block it, tends to advertise porn or gambling sites at best. At worst, it autostarts malware downloads, attempting to masquerade as the requested file. It is especially unfortunate that adf.ly is popular in Minecraft modding, as Minecraft is popular with kids, and often one of the first things kids really want to go online and search for information about. These kids aren't savvy enough to block adf.ly or see through its malware downloads. I know many people working educationally with Minecraft share these concerns with me.

But what are the alternatives? Paypal buttons don't even make enough to cover hosting, I hear modders say. Well, my suggestion is Flattr.

The way it works is that I and some others who are with me on this campaign, have put some money in our flattr accounts. We then click on the flattr buttons of projects we want to support. At the end of the month, a fixed sum (usually €5 or €10) is split equally between all the projects you click. For us as supporters, this frees us from deciding who deserves it most, and making dozens different spending decisions. Too many decisions often leads to no decision at all, especially when they carry a cost like contributing money to modding.

So here's the deal:

* modders, I invite you to post a flattr link. I'll flattr you is a reasonably serious mod, i.e. certainly anything in official FTB or Technic packs plus anything else that I've heard about and would want to try. Oh, and you don't use adf.ly. I really appreciate it being public, but you can also message me if you feel it looks too much like accepting charity (it isn't, but I respect your feel.)

* Fellow enjoyers of modded minecraft (and that includes modders too, right?) join me in this. €5 or €10 per month isn't much for what we get, and it's far easier to do it this way than to make a budget and decide exactly how much everyone deserves. It's not just charity either, it really makes a difference in what we get, as modders make the tough decision of whether they can justify continued commitment.

So far, makers of ComputerCraft, MFFS (Minalien's version), Magic Bees, and MyWorldGen are with us on this. I've also supported the OpenBlocks author as I found out he's on flattr and doesn't use adf.ly. Notch is a flattr early adopter, but I've already supported him the conventional way, so now it's the modders' turn

 

[monsted]

If the argument is the cost of hosting, i'm sure there are many of us who can at least mirror the files for free.

 

[Eyamaz]

I really like this idea. I may have to bring this up to some people.

 

[Saice]

What about subbable as another option along side Flattr?

Anything to get away from ad based incomes is a good thing in my book.

 

[FyberOptic]

An interesting proposition, from both a modder and player perspective. I didn't know such a service existed.

What if the modder also includes alternative download links without ads? I do that on all my mods, partially because Adf.ly can and has gone down, and partially because some people have trouble with it, or are new to Adf.ly and confused by misleading ads making them think that's the download. My secondary download links are a direct version of the Adf.ly, and the third link is a DropBox, just in case my server goes down.

 

[Enigmius1]

I can't help but wonder if there's not a better way. I understand the idea behind it and I'd much prefer to see something like this vs. a "boycott modders who distribute via adfly" kind of mentality. As someone who also receives a few dollars every month courtesy of ad revenue, however, I also see the other side of things.

If adfly is advertising inappropriate services (ie. gambling, porn) to kids, that's an issue. Most ad campaigns are driven by viewer preferences. As example, the other day I was looking at some audio recording electronics, and today every ad I see is for electronic components. If adfly is distributing malware, that also is obviously an issue. If adfly is being deceptive about how it presents information to prompt click throughs that the user clearly didn't want, again an issue. It suggests to me that, assuming all of these things to be true (which I believe at least some are true because of things I've personally seen on adfly before) that adfly as a company isn't doing so well. If they have to scrape so hard off the bottom of the barrel to pay their bills every month they're probably not much longer for this world.

Having said that, however, I would rather see a more ethically managed ad-driven solution for people offering downloads to an audience than a grass-roots effort to steer modders away from adfly.

The simple fact of the matter is that if you leave these kinds of things in the hands of what amounts to donations, and in this case donations parceled out based on subjective criteria, the question of adequate and fair compensation creeps up. If this thing were to grow to the point where you had 1000 contributors chipping in $10/month distributed amongst 50 modders (assuming equal distribution), you're on to something. Modders would be getting a bit of extra money to upgrade their gear or treat themselves from time to time. If you're talking about 100 people each chipping in $5 for 50 modders based on weighted criteria, someone is going to get $0.50 and think you're a bunch of jerks.

I don't mind generating an income of any size from ad revenue because it takes me hours of effort to present 10-20 minutes worth of content to someone at absolutely no charge, and all they're asked to do in return is endure the atrocity that is a 5-30 second ad. It's not much to ask. And it's consistent as long as I'm drawing views, because unlike the gaming community who tends to talk a good game, the companies that pay for the ad space not only have money to spend, they have an incentive to spend it.

I fully support the idea of seeking alternatives to inappropriate advertising practices. I'm just urging some thought as to what those alternatives should look like. Maybe the OP's project will work out really well. I'll let my bias show, however, in suggesting that the outcome for the modders should be paramount. "Here's $5 instead of $50 because we don't like windows full of casino chips and tits under our main browser" is a less than ideal solution.

 

[FyberOptic]

I have to agree with Enigmius1. I wouldn't necessarily want developers to be "punished" simply for wanting to use advertising in general to benefit them financially for their work. Someone participating in such a developer support program can of course personally exclude whatever mods they want if they don't approve of something they do, even if that's for the Adf.ly, but I don't really think it should automatically exclude them by design.

I want to put a bit of perspective on it. I know that there are modders with significantly more users than me, but with nearly ten thousand combined downloads for October, I still won't even make half an hour's wage for an average software developer in America. It's pocket money. But it's pocket money which I enjoy earning, and use to treat myself. In that same time period, I received exactly zero donations. And it is exactly the number I expected, considering that the average age bracket of Minecraft players probably don't even have any money to send if they wanted to. So if I'm ever forced to choose between offering an ad-based download link, or hoping that somebody might one day feel generous, then I'm obviously going to opt with the former.

I also know that my mods are being downloaded from other sites, and in modpacks, from which I see no revenue at all. Some of this is with my permission, some not. Most of this I'm usually fine with either way, because it means more people will get to enjoy my mods, despite the lack of income or even download statistics (which I enjoy the most). But I know of at least a couple of websites (last I looked) which were using their own advertising on the mod downloads. I'm sure countless other mod developers are having their ad revenue leached in this way as well. I feel slightly better about some stranger making money from my work when I can make a little bit myself as well.

That being said, I do feel that more developers should include ad-optional links. Again, put into perspective, I would say that 98% of my trackable downloads go through the Adf.ly link, even though I offer very visible non-advertising download links as well. I think many people intentionally click the Adf.ly one to benefit the developer. I know I do for other mods.

I've personally never seen Adf.ly offer any inappropriate ads on my content, or auto-download any kind of adware/malware. I won't say that it doesn't, or hasn't, though. I would even reconsider using them if it did. But similar to what Enigmius1 said, I spent many hours writing code, I don't feel that sitting through a five-second delay before a download starts is too much to ask. But I make it optional, nonetheless.

 

[Saice]

Yeah don't get me wrong I think devs need love. I agree we should not be looking to punish their use of ads. I just think things like Subbable and Flattr are nice ideas anything to support the devs more is good in my book.

 

[Hammerson]

Enigmius1, you make some good points, but also some I want to address.

Ads aren't always targeted to your interests. They're targeted to whatever pays for the advertiser. When most who will see the ads are kids without a credit card, spyware and ad-jacking trojans are about the only ways to make an immediate profit on them.

Adf.ly has rules, but they have very little incentive to clean up when either advertisers or partners break them. I don't think they're scraping the bottom of the barrel, after all they do pay out some. I think that the dirty way of doing it is the only way they were able to offer so high (comparatively speaking!) payouts per click from the start.

You write: "If this thing were to grow to the point where you had 1000 contributors chipping in $10/month distributed amongst 50 modders (assuming equal distribution), you're on to something."

Well, you've got to start somewhere. The individual contribution to each modder is small, I admit that. I can't feed the modding scene on my own. But even if I spread it out so it became only €0.25 per mod per month (it's currently considerably more), that's still many thousand adf.ly clicks - so calling me a jerk would be unreasonable.

FyberObptic, I can understand with your thinking about leech sites, like minecraft[digit], which re-hosts your mods under their own adf.ly links. They're cheating both you and your users. But consider: This works in large part because minecraft users are used to adf.ly links, and there's nothing that tells them that they're really paying the owner of minecraft[digit]. They probably think they support you.

And should you really run adf.ly links of your own when there are open leech sites like this? Yes, you get some but adf.ly profit both from you and from the folks who rips you off!

But if people were used to a flattr button instead, this particular scam wouldn't work. A flattr account trying to make money from rehosting your mod would

* Get few clicks. Although a flattr donation requires less thinking than a paypal donation, it requires a lot more than an adf.ly click.

* Get many clicks reversed. If you accidentally click on a rehoster's adf.ly link (confession: I've probably done that at some point when I first found out about the modding schene), you've accidentally rewarded a scammer and there's nothing you can do about it. But flattrs can be revised until the end of the month, so you have some time to find out.

* Likely get shut down if the real creator complains.

Whew, this got long. Just one more thing I want to say: Personally, at this point in time, I flattr mods/modders that don't use adf.ly. But that is just my preference. I know they forgo some income for it, and I want to correct that first. If you or anyone are indifferent to adf.ly, you are of course free to support modders who use both.

 

[Truga]

I don't feel that sitting through a five-second delay before a download starts is too much to ask.

It wouldn't be if adfly weren't as intrusive and such a time waster. The main reason I now use FTB launcher is all the adfly links I'd have to go through to get to an equivalent modpack. ~100 jars/zips at 5+ seconds each is 10 minutes of just waiting. I probably wouldn't mind this on a 56k, but this isn't the 90s anymore.

But I make it optional, nonetheless.

You're the kind of person I'd donate money to if I could still be bothered to download mods myself. Unforunately, the way I was getting raped by adfly links in the past, I just don't bother finding any at all, and instead just get a modpack. Sorry!

 

[Physicist]

If the argument is the cost of hosting, i'm sure there are many of us who can at least mirror the files for free.

Hosting is a VERY small part of it. Consider the cost of hosting VS what these technically inclined coders' time is worth per hour: coding, bug fixing, listening to whiners, creative design, sometimes full project management.

I'd be curious to see a chart of bytecounts representing each mod's total bytecount + added/changed bytes with each update compared with vanilla Minecraft; then compare the numbers of people or man hours per month on those teams to the full-time numbers of employees at Mojang.

 

[Enigmius1]

Enigmius1, you make some good points, but also some I want to address.

Ads aren't always targeted to your interests. They're targeted to whatever pays for the advertiser. When most who will see the ads are kids without a credit card, spyware and ad-jacking trojans are about the only ways to make an immediate profit on them.

Adf.ly has rules, but they have very little incentive to clean up when either advertisers or partners break them. I don't think they're scraping the bottom of the barrel, after all they do pay out some. I think that the dirty way of doing it is the only way they were able to offer so high (comparatively speaking!) payouts per click from the start.

You write: "If this thing were to grow to the point where you had 1000 contributors chipping in $10/month distributed amongst 50 modders (assuming equal distribution), you're on to something."

Well, you've got to start somewhere. The individual contribution to each modder is small, I admit that. I can't feed the modding scene on my own. But even if I spread it out so it became only €0.25 per mod per month (it's currently considerably more), that's still many thousand adf.ly clicks - so calling me a jerk would be unreasonable.

I'm afraid I see too many assumptions in there, and assumptions don't drive change. In fact, I'd say you're hurting your cause because you'll only be able to grow the idea so far before people start calling you on the relevance of the assumptions. It's not necessary to explain to me how things work because I know better than you do how they work, and I know so because I have a direct interest in knowing so. Google analytics isn't just for show. If you want people to migrate from option A to option B, option B generally has to be superior. Your option thus far is not, and when pressed you don't talk about modders, you talk about the people being fed the ads and you continue the criticism of adfly. Where in that whole response was any mention of protecting modder interests? You don't like adfly, so here modders, enjoy this grossly sub-par solution that no longer involves adfly. Downloaders don't have to deal with adfly, modders aer dumb so they won't notice the difference, it's a win-win, right?

 

[RedBoss]

I do offer two points. I don't pay Mojang a monthly fee. I also use the ATLauncher which actually directs users to ad.fly links when you download a modpack.

I think the intention is good, but we all know what type of roads get paved with intentions. Also Enigmius is bringing up valid points to challenge the strength of your arguments, not to belittle them. If your premise can't stand up to a few forum replies, then maybe your plan is too flawed to be effective and a new strategy is required.

Remember, don't try to win an argument. Take the criticism to improve your strategy to help modders.

 

[FyberOptic]

It wouldn't be if adfly weren't as intrusive and such a time waster. The main reason I now use FTB launcher is all the adfly links I'd have to go through to get to an equivalent modpack. ~100 jars/zips at 5+ seconds each is 10 minutes of just waiting. I probably wouldn't mind this on a 56k, but this isn't the 90s anymore.

Don't get me wrong, I understand the mindset. I've downloaded multiple mods at once before on various occasions, middle-clicking their download links into background tabs while I find all of the other ones I want. But Adf.ly detects if you have another page already open and puts you on their "holding" page instead. You really do have to wait the five seconds for every mod.

But I still think it's fair to put that into the perspective that you're downloading days of combined development time for all of those mods, and even taking a few minutes in all to get a hundred of them is still not really an outrageous thing. Especially when you only have to get them all once, and will then spend hours/days enjoying them. I'm not really defending Adf.ly in particular, nor do I want to imply that someone is in the wrong for not wanting to deal with ads. But I think you get the point I'm trying to make.

I do think services like Flattr are pretty neat actually. I like the idea of a Humble Bundle kind of thing, where money can be divvied up between modpack maintainers and mod developers, however the donator sees fit. I just also want to express that having ad-supported downloads available as well are a way that people unable to contribute monetarily can still feel like they're contributing. Because they are.

You're the kind of person I'd donate money to if I could still be bothered to download mods myself. Unforunately, the way I was getting raped by adfly links in the past, I just don't bother finding any at all, and instead just get a modpack. Sorry!

Oh it's fine, no apologies necessary. I don't make mods to make money, it's just a fun reward. Though I appreciate the sentiment!

Download statistics are the most appealing aspect to me, which is really the only downside to letting other sites distribute a mod (either via download or modpack). The other downside is a download site not putting a link back to the Minecraft Forum thread for the mod, so then people are using what ever old version of the mod is on that particular site long after bugs were fixed or features were added. I still regularly see new Youtube mod spotlights/showcases for relatively old versions of Redstone Paste, for example.

I also use the ATLauncher which actually directs users to ad.fly links when you download a modpack.

I just recently found out about ATLauncher. That's a pretty neat concept as well. But I think they should try to integrate the Adf.ly downloads/ads into the launcher itself, to save people the step of downloading all of the mods themselves. I get ad revenue from some mod websites which take advantage of Adf.ly's API. I was a bit confused the first time I started seeing the downloads appear in my Adf.ly account from somewhere I didn't recognize, actually. I started to appreciate Adf.ly more for making this possible, allowing a website to host the file themselves if they want while still contributing download revenue to the developer.

 

[Hammerson]

I don't pay Mojang a monthly fee, true, but I probably would if they asked for it for continued development. Notch has also been flattred 1153 times, so many don't seem to agree with my sentiment that it's better to support those who need it more.

You say "my arguments don't stand up", but you don't say exactly which arguments, and what they don't stand up to. I'm similarly very uncertain what exactly my assumptions are that Enigmus1 doubts, or what he sees in his Google Analytics stats that proves me wrong. You talk about argument, but the only argument I see you two making is from authority. Then you tell me to not try to win the argument...

I don't see any constructive criticism - unless you think I should smile and not to those who say this will never work and adf.ly is entirely unproblematic? I can't do that because I don't think so! I got to be honest. And the honest truth is that I think adf.ly is a huge problem and ultimately not sustainable as a way to support the modding scene. (But I'm not just out to help modders - I also think of the kids adf.ly ultimately make money on)

Also, please don't say I'm calling for a boycott of modders. To give money to those who abstain from using adf.ly is not calling for a boycott. If anything, I'm calling for a, um, girlcott? The opposite, anyway! Positive support for those who have elected to forgo the problematic adf.ly profits, not attacks on anyone.