Modpack Concept discussion: Shattered Lands

[GrimJahk]

Honestly I wouldn't try to encourage/suggest doing this with any new functionality. If current mods don't support the ideas, you might as well toss the ideas.

The impression I got from your comments was that there were already mods that caused blocks to disintegrate under certain circumstances. That alone, if it exists, would allow you to assemble this pack with the core motifs intact.

New functionality is the entire point. If you don't integrate new stuff you only have rehashes of what currently exists. If the only thing that differentiates this pack from, say, AS2, is the fact that islands are generated and you cannot fly, then what's the hook... nothing new, just redo AS2 with a new self imposed restriction. You need something new to make it stand out.

No, only some of the concepts are reused, the disintegration concept is a new one as far as I know.

If this conversation sparks a mod maker to create that mod that makes this pack possible, cool! If someone that has a better knowledge of existing Mods, can figure out a way to tune those mods to this functionality, cool!

My exposure to mods is limited to what I have played, major packs, that's about it. there are more mods I haven't played than ones I have. I know that my knowledge of what is currently possible vs. what has yet to be created is extremely limited. Which leads back to the point of the thread; exposing the concepts that people would like to see, to the people that can make it happen. (which is not me)

 

[Pyure]

New functionality is the entire point. If you don't integrate new stuff you only have rehashes of what currently exists. If the only thing that differentiates this pack from, say, AS2, is the fact that islands are generated and you cannot fly, then what's the hook... nothing new, just redo AS2 with a new self imposed restriction. You need something new to make it stand out.

By this argument, nobody can create a clever new novel since they're just rehashing the old alphabet. And that's just 26 (English) letters. We have thousands of mods The truth is, if making something "absolutely, totally different" were easy, everyone would do it. Its actually virtually impossibly hard. So what you're left with is being unusually creative with the tools at your disposal. The hook wouldn't be as big as you're imagining, and you'd have to accept that. But there still would be *a* hook. And instead of "everyone" trying your awesome new pack, you'd just get "lots of people" trying it.

I'm not trying to poop on your endeavour here. Its awesome if someone decides to pick up your idea. I've just never seen it happen before: programmers do their own thing.

Full disclosure: I'm a programmer.

I could swear you named a mod or pack when I discussed worlds falling apart. I didn't recognize it, but I assumed it was a Thing.

 

[GrimJahk]

By this argument, nobody can create a clever new novel since they're just rehashing the old alphabet. And that's just 26 (English) letters. We have thousands of mods The truth is, if making something "absolutely, totally different" were easy, everyone would do it. Its actually virtually impossibly hard. So what you're left with is being unusually creative with the tools at your disposal. The hook wouldn't be as big as you're imagining, and you'd have to accept that. But there still would be *a* hook. And instead of "everyone" trying your awesome new pack, you'd just get "lots of people" trying it.

I'm not trying to poop on your endeavour here. Its awesome if someone decides to pick up your idea. I've just never seen it happen before: programmers do their own thing.

Full disclosure: I'm a programmer.

I could swear you named a mod or pack when I discussed worlds falling apart. I didn't recognize it, but I assumed it was a Thing.

And that same logic means that there are no new programs since 1 and 0 already exist.

I have no misconceptions that what we are discussing here is easy, if this functionality were already available, we'd already see a pack like this. But it -is- this functionality that makes the hook that we are discussing. When the players are throwing out ideas and concepts that appeal to them, new content can arise.

• Map gen that can make islands - CHECK
• Sky block over void - CHECK
• Ability to lock out Flight mechanics - Check
• Conditional deterioration of blocks exposed to sky or void - ???
• Make Super-Dense ores that are partially mined and lose health/durability - (Maybe a rework of Thaumcraft nodes?) - ???

To me the Hook here is a Skyblock map that requires exploration to get necessary materials to rebuild and expand.

That is what I want to play.

The specifics are not relevant as a checklist of features/components/demands; these are just interesting ideas we are tossing about "in hopes" they may be implemented, both as "cool factor" and balance methods to keep the pack challenging and re-playable.

In the last few years the major modpack (hot) releases have all had new hooks. HQM brought us AS, Crash landing was the thing about hunger/heat management, Regrowth had a new world Gen Mod, IES has had a couple mods created/altered as well... Sky factory was the only one that had no real hook, and it was fun to play as a time killer until IES came out.

I don't feel you are pooping, I'm am just fairly certain there is not a "edit configs" path to this pack.

But I also feel strongly that if we can get the right people's attention, this could be one of those packs for "everyone", not just "lots of people".

 

[GrimJahk]

I could swear you named a mod or pack when I discussed worlds falling apart.

I mentioned an old Yes album cover. Artwork.

 

[Pyure]

Hunt around, you might be surprised at what unconventional/hidden gems of mods there are. Maybe something really does exist that does what you like.

Just as a "for instance": I mentioned meteors. You could probably leverage MeteorCraft to do this, and you could have a anti meteor gun on your starting island which would force you to stay in that one area.

 

[GrimJahk]

Hunt around, you might be surprised at what unconventional/hidden gems of mods there are. Maybe something really does exist that does what you like.

Just as a "for instance": I mentioned meteors. You could probably leverage MeteorCraft to do this, and you could have a anti meteor gun on your starting island which would force you to stay in that one area.

Hunting around is one of those things I know I will never have time to do. RL 60hour job, family, etc... Unless I decide to stop having downtime to just do research...

Like I said, I'm not the guy to put this together. I simply cannot be that guy.

I *can* be the guy that spends and hour or three a week discussing cool ideas or brainstorming solutions/balance issues. Being the cheerleader.

 

[Azzanine]

Ore with durability has been done in the 1.8 and > versions of Dense Ores. They are called ore deposits.

Edit; tbh the idea if the decay is a bit ambitious. Even in the scope of 1.7.10 the rest can be done.
If someone makes a mod to make it possible great but not sure it's needed.

The only thing I wonder is what mods could be used, pondering wether to spend the weekend testing some ideas. But I probably would rather be actually playing. Making a pack takes some time.

But essentially we need to figure out the mechanical nessities people need in a pack and what mods could fill those roles.
I.e; storage, tools, travel, auto farming, ore processing, esthetics, logical control, world gen, PvE challenges.
Any other categories missed there?



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[GrimJahk]

Ore with durability has been done in the 1.8 and > versions of Dense Ores. They are called ore deposits.

Edit; tbh the idea if the decay is a bit ambitious. Even in the scope of 1.7.10 the rest can be done.
If someone makes a mod to make it possible great but not sure it's needed.

The only thing I wonder is what mods could be used, pondering wether to spend the weekend testing some ideas. But I probably would rather be actually playing. Making a pack takes some time.

But essentially we need to figure out the mechanical nessities people need in a pack and what mods could fill those roles.
I.e; storage, tools, travel, auto farming, ore processing, esthetics, logical control, world gen, PvE challenges.
Any other categories missed there?



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The point of the decay is the incentive to harvest the "new material" to make decay proof bridges/structures over the void. Whether they are animated or not is purely cosmetic (just cool)

Yes, picking mods is a bit of the challenge (especially when I am only familiar with what is in the popular packs)

I see primary challenges to be:

• Real estate management. With void exposure dangers, early on, you can't build out, just up... Even making a mob tower for early materials will have it's drawbacks...
• Organization, do not want early access to ME (maybe not even have it in the pack) create a need to encourage the exploration to find the Big Islands to build a real base, Drawers are easy, useful, expandable, AND BULKY.
• HQM? Unless there are some really off the wall complex mods that are not mainstream.. the Guide function from IES should be more than enough to provide steering if needed.
• If this is built for 1.9 the new TiCon release would be a nice change up from the expected, but we lose access to many mods that have not been ported yet... TiCon either way actually IMO
• Driving exploration is important, this is why Ex Nihilo (in base form) cannot be used. Endless resources from a cobble gen = low need to explore.
• One end game item/goal COULD be something like the Binding Wand I mentioned before, requiring components found in other dimensions and dungeons, (long crafting chain like we have in IES)
• Quarries being nonexistent would make the Nether more of a challenge, (lack of flight here will be brutal)
• Not sure how much of this would be tech vs magic. (I tend to go Tech route by default, It's been a while since I felt magic was really balanced, focused effort = godlike powers)
• Blood magic would be crippled until you can find the Large Island... no room to build more than a tier 4.
• If Thaumcraft is involved, a cool effect would be for random spawning of taint at Y2, heavy drops and light floats by the islands randomly... kind of creepy...
• Botania is so heavily used I have dreaded it the last two packs...

That's all I have for now, but I'll keep thinking.

 

[RyokuHasu]

I can tell you this, you will be hard pressed to make this a 1.9 mod pack. You would be far better off making a 1.7, or MAYBE a 1.8 pack.

 

[gijsc1]

if you go with a pre-made map instead of random generation, you can do a lot with command blocks.
They seem way easier to set up than a mod. They could for instance be used to deny acces to areas until certain conditions are met.
instead of the whole decaying bridge thing, you could use the world barrier you see in many minecraft minigames to prevent players from traveling.

just some ideas.

however, without someone willing to invest some serious time into developing this modpack, it is never going to happen.

 

[GrimJahk]

if you go with a pre-made map instead of random generation, you can do a lot with command blocks.
They seem way easier to set up than a mod. They could for instance be used to deny acces to areas until certain conditions are met.
instead of the whole decaying bridge thing, you could use the world barrier you see in many minecraft minigames to prevent players from traveling.

Distinct possibility, but if it's a fixed map, exploration is ruined once you know where everything is, deployability is gone... not to mention, to pre make a map that has the ratio of Islands I suggested above, would take someone weeks (or longer) to hand craft 1k islands.

I do see what you mean, however, what I'm looking for is an exploration based experience not a "check of this box before you can see the next one" rail game

 

[gijsc1]

Distinct possibility, but if it's a fixed map, exploration is ruined once you know where everything is, deployability is gone... not to mention, to pre make a map that has the ratio of Islands I suggested above, would take someone weeks (or longer) to hand craft 1k islands.

I do see what you mean, however, what I'm looking for is an exploration based experience not a "check of this box before you can see the next one" rail game

i would disagree. You can use existing mods to generate the islands , generate a world, put the command blocks there, and then ship that save with the modpack.
this would also allow you to hide secrets in the world. And you could use exploring an area thoroughly to find some items a prerequisite to get to the next area.
it would mean the exploration aspect would only work best During the first playthrough, but i dont think many people play the same modpack multiple times.
an important aspect of exploration is that you need to have things to explore or look for that feel like they are worth it.
i feel that if you can find basically everything in the early or midgame, it takes the fun out of the exploring.
but i understand if other people think differently.

 

[GrimJahk]

i would disagree. You can use existing mods to generate the islands , generate a world, put the command blocks there, and then ship that save with the modpack.
this would also allow you to hide secrets in the world. And you could use exploring an area thoroughly to find some items a prerequisite to get to the next area.
it would mean the exploration aspect would only work best During the first playthrough, but i dont think many people play the same modpack multiple times.
an important aspect of exploration is that you need to have things to explore or look for that feel like they are worth it.
i feel that if you can find basically everything in the early or midgame, it takes the fun out of the exploring.
but i understand if other people think differently.

Many packs get their exposure from being done on YouTube or Twitch. That would mean MANY spoilers on a fixed map.

I completely agree that "Finding everything" early game can ruin it. (one reason ex Nihilo is getting old for me, and why I want to tweak it just enough to make it fun again) That's why we have the concept that you have to explore to find resources to then expand and explore more... all in stages... but the key here is explore. Running into invisible shields because you have not checked a box is far more annoying than not being able to build a access bridge because you have not got the proper resources yet. Both of these are gates. One is far more heavy handed than the other and immersion breaking IMO. With command blocks, you have to do a mental play through of the paths that you want to allow the players to progress, with limited resources, it's up to them which paths to take.

Again, not trying to be confrontational here, I'm just personally tired of the fixed path/progression of many packs. (HQM) With that, I envision this pack to be more "sandbox" than many of the others, play it your way, at your pace. Take the Vanilla exploration mindset and plug it in here. Find other biomes, dungeons, temples, whatever. Find Keys to unlocking final goals, or pieces of equipment that cannot be crafted. But along each step of the way you need to pause and look around, set up mining rigs as you go, to allow you to keep going.

Any pack that has a fixed map, means that the players that make it and test it already know all the secrets. There is no surprise, no reason for them to even load it after it's released.

This is my major issue..

I want to be a part of something that I will enjoy playing, that means I need to be surprised too. Hand crafting a exploration for others is one thing... but no fun for you.

 

[Pyure]

You're an ideas guy Grim, you don't get to be a "part of something"

Only one man got to do that. George Lucas! And look what happened to him, now he's just a mascot that they pretend to get ideas from

Once someone takes your idea and runs with it, you may find all kinds of things happening you're not excited about. That's the downside of trying to drum up interest for an idea that you don't want to implement yourself.

 

[GrimJahk]

You're an ideas guy Grim, you don't get to be a "part of something"

Only one man got to do that. George Lucas! And look what happened to him, now he's just a mascot that they pretend to get ideas from

Once someone takes your idea and runs with it, you may find all kinds of things happening you're not excited about. That's the downside of trying to drum up interest for an idea that you don't want to implement yourself.

Fully understood and expected, I'm also a fairly decent salesman and visionary, so I think I can sell my position... but I'm also a realist that what drives me and interests me may not be for the larger audience... We don't have anything close to what I'm imagining, but if we get close, I'll be behind it and help when and where I can.

The core I'm after is an exploration based theme, closest I have seen so far has been ME^3, but that felt like it was on rails and there was nothing to keep you from becoming a God quickly, then it was just grind through the content to find the wool...

 

[Pyure]

Yeah I lost interest in ME^3 after about 10 minutes. But honestly, that's a really legit rails game. The ideas above I think more described something like Crash Landing, which does have hardcoded loctions, but still a strong sense of randomness.

 

[GrimJahk]

Yeah I lost interest in ME^3 after about 10 minutes. But honestly, that's a really legit rails game. The ideas above I think more described something like Crash Landing, which does have hardcoded loctions, but still a strong sense of randomness.

...also a great example of something that was created as a mod to follow a designed concept. But when playing Crash I never felt like it was anything other than pure survival. Exploration was less the focus than crushing self-preservation and overwhelming nastiness as you progress down a (mostly) pre-determined path.

 

[Azzanine]

I think someone should make a prototype for the pack. Next long week end I might start experimenting with world gen mods for 1.7.10. Get every thing up exept for ubimplimentable features like the decay to see how it plays.

Also the thing about ideas is true. My initial post was just a simple sky island pack idea and Grim ran with it and came to a similar but separate conclusion.

Actually I didn't think of how people would just make bridges all over the place. My idea was that the islands where far apart enough that doing so would be laborious (closest being 100 or so blocks away, far enough to reach by open blocks hang glider).
But the idea of 1 block wide cobble bridges dividing the sky isn't attractive.

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[GrimJahk]

I think someone should make a prototype for the pack. Next long week end I might start experimenting with world gen mods for 1.7.10. Get every thing up exept for ubimplimentable features like the decay to see how it plays.

Also the thing about ideas is true. My initial post was just a simple sky island pack idea and Grim ran with it and came to a similar but separate conclusion.

Actually I didn't think of how people would just make bridges all over the place. My idea was that the islands where far apart enough that doing so would be laborious (closest being 100 or so blocks away, far enough to reach by open blocks hang glider).
But the idea of 1 block wide cobble bridges dividing the sky isn't attractive.

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Yup on all all accounts!

I love fleshing out ideas.

Gliders are cool, I remember them from crash landing. But I also remember that the firs thing I did anyplace I went was build 100 block launch towers.

I will also note, that as far as flight goes on an exploration map, gliders are the least bad option since you can't snipe away threats. And if "Fog of war" were to be implemented, being forced to land on an Island you have zero info on, may lead to an early death.

 

[Someone Else 37]

Yup on all all accounts!

I love fleshing out ideas.

Gliders are cool, I remember them from crash landing. But I also remember that the firs thing I did anyplace I went was build 100 block launch towers.

I will also note, that as far as flight goes on an exploration map, gliders are the least bad option since you can't snipe away threats. And if "Fog of war" were to be implemented, being forced to land on an Island you have zero info on, may lead to an early death.

Gliders in combination with that springboard mod wouldn't require tall launch towers (although people would probably build them anyway)...

Using a glider on a skylands map would be... interesting. One miscalculation on the height of your launch- or one click of your mousewheel- and into the Void you go. Certainly much more dangerous than building long single-use cobblestone bridges, but does that risk balance out the speed and the benefit of not having to carry stacks and stacks of cobblestone everywhere? I don't know.

Maybe if there was some way to ensure that leather was unobtainable until you'd already explored at least a few islands? Sure, you could easily spawn on an island with no cows, but if your spawn island had a couple of cows, then you could have a glider within a matter of days. Maybe gate the glider behind... I dunno. The Nether?

MC 1.9 has the Elytra, which would perform the same function as a glider and is thoroughly gated behind the End.