KingLemming speaks!

[Pyure]

Definitely

fwiw I'm a professional software architect and developer. I have a certain sense of sympathy for those who do it for free.

 

[McJty]

Definitely

fwiw I'm a professional software architect and developer. I have a certain sense of sympathy for those who do it for free.

I both program for a living (not for free) and develop Open Source software so I'm a bit at home in both areas

 

[DREVL]

Melted glowstone is a fluid that can't be transported by fluidducts. This sounds silly to me. Can we has plz?

 

[dothrom]

Melted glowstone is a fluid that can't be transported by fluidducts. This sounds silly to me. Can we has plz?

Wat.
A) Yes it does work in fluiducts. I use it for lighting sometimes.
B) Wat.

 

[DREVL]

Wat.
A) Yes it does work in fluiducts. I use it for lighting sometimes.
B) Wat.

Not sure why but it wasn't happening last night. It is now. So I guess nvm? Lol

 

[midi_sec]

I frequently see this argument and I'll try to explain why it bugs me.

Immersion and challenge are important to me in a game. If I have to play a game where I have to get, say, 10000 points to win, and there's a big red button that says "You can press this button at any time to get an instant 1000 points", its an annoying distraction knowing its there. The game actually "feels" better when I remove that button.

I choose what to build or use, but the accomplishment feels less immersive knowing I can just hit a button and win at any time.

I've been thinking about this for a while.

There is an obvious need for modpacks that are tailor made for SMP servers, with people going out of their way to "balance" things like this, but nobody filling that niche. For once I'd like to see a cohesive multiplayer experience with attention paid to cross-mod exploits and the like, and still deliver the depth from modded minecraft.

But I would never demand off a modder

Never demand. Only request politely. Configs can only help, not harm, broadening a mod's userbase by ensuring that the mod can be customized to fit the theme of more packs.

I think the era of expecting your mod to be plopped into a pack, take it as it is, are close to over. Custom, and theme packs, almost insist that you have flexibility so that you may balance your pack for cross-mod interference.

Not all devs are open to suggestions, though. Darwin.

 

[dothrom]

I've been thinking about this for a while.

There is an obvious need for modpacks that are tailor made for SMP servers, with people going out of their way to "balance" things like this, but nobody filling that niche. For once I'd like to see a cohesive multiplayer experience with attention paid to cross-mod exploits and the like, and still deliver the depth from modded minecraft.

We're starting to see some of that with the "themed" packs that are starting to take hold. Minetweaker is really the start of this. Of course, some mod authors are very unhappy and/or forbid using those on their mods in public packs. Which is their right, weather one agrees with them or not. (and I'm not voting one way or the other atm). And I'd say it's likely we're going to see more of this in the near future.

Granted so far it's been rather SSP oriented (while AG skies has a good server map, it's still reasonably oriented to single player or small team)

 

[Cptqrk]

Okay.

Back on page 3 or 4, it was suggested that modders may want to volunteeringly stick with some suggested guidelines.
And yet there was a big hubbabaloo over the RF api becoming a standard.

"It's going to kill modders creativity!"
"Everyone is going to have to be the same!"

Sorry, just needed to point out, that asking modders to "conform" for one reason, but not another, is a bit.. yeah..

 

[wolfenstein19]

We're starting to see some of that with the "themed" packs that are starting to take hold. Minetweaker is really the start of this. Of course, some mod authors are very unhappy and/or forbid using those on their mods in public packs. Which is their right, weather one agrees with them or not. (and I'm not voting one way or the other atm). And I'd say it's likely we're going to see more of this in the near future.

Granted so far it's been rather SSP oriented (while AG skies has a good server map, it's still reasonably oriented to single player or small team)

I guess the problem when you use something like minetweaker to radicly change progression or recipes in mods its basicly like saying "I as a pack creator deem your ability to balance as a mod creator insufficient, and thus will continue to mess with your mod in other ways".

Ofcourse, and that may even be a bigger problem, said mod authors will get reports from issues / fuckery / failures associated with badly messing up their internal balance concept.

 

[Pyure]

I've been thinking about this for a while.

There is an obvious need for modpacks that are tailor made for SMP servers, with people going out of their way to "balance" things like this, but nobody filling that niche. For once I'd like to see a cohesive multiplayer experience with attention paid to cross-mod exploits and the like, and still deliver the depth from modded minecraft.


Never demand. Only request politely. Configs can only help, not harm, broadening a mod's userbase by ensuring that the mod can be customized to fit the theme of more packs.

I think the era of expecting your mod to be plopped into a pack, take it as it is, are close to over. Custom, and theme packs, almost insist that you have flexibility so that you may balance your pack for cross-mod interference.

Not all devs are open to suggestions, though. Darwin.

Only 1 like allowed. Sorry mate.

 

[dothrom]

I guess the problem when you use something like minetweaker to radicly change progression or recipes in mods its basicly like saying "I as a pack creator deem your ability to balance as a mod creator insufficient, and thus will continue to mess with your mod in other ways".

Ofcourse, and that may even be a bigger problem, said mod authors will get reports from issues / fuckery / failures associated with badly messing up their internal balance concept.

Par for the course. People complain to mod authors for all kinds of problems that have nothing to do with them. And yes, it's wrong. So our focus, as a community should be discouraging people for making false complaints. At any rate, in the usage permissions that authors give (or don't) for use in modpacks can cover approval for using minetweaker. So in theory, it's still up to them.

In the end, people are going to bitch about mods "breaking" other mods. Or how easy a mod is. Or modpack authors can use tools to balance the pack out, changing things. And people will then bitch about things being changed. Authors are in the unenviable position of being damned if they do, damned if they don't. There is no perfect way to do it. All we can do as the community is try to keep the amount of useless complaints to a minimum as possible. And support the authors as much as possible.

 

[Pyure]

I guess the problem when you use something like minetweaker to radicly change progression or recipes in mods its basicly like saying "I as a pack creator deem your ability to balance as a mod creator insufficient, and thus will continue to mess with your mod in other ways".

Ofcourse, and that may even be a bigger problem, said mod authors will get reports from issues / fuckery / failures associated with badly messing up their internal balance concept.

Its impossible for a mod creator to anticipate every mod interaction.

Minetweaker isn't any kind of insult. As far as I'm concerned its the most important minecraft-modding tool since NEI was introduced. The era of MC modding we're coming into now is going to be amazing.

Mods such as InfiTech (3rd Party section) leverage this tool amazingly. @midi_sec, if you haven't already, you should have a brief look at that pack; its artistry from a balance and interaction standpoint, and it is minetweaked like you wouldn't believe.

And I tip my hat to the brilliant work done by the modders, and thank them profusely for letting people mod their mods, all in the spirit of the community.

 

[Azzanine]

I think players should be allowed to tweak mods, just with the caveat that they wont get any support for issues arising from said tweaking. Because at the end of the day if you care at all about the usage of your mod if an over entitled mod pack compiler has the choice they can either use your mod with tweaking or forego it completely. This opinion is rendered moot in the case where allowing the mod to be tweaked would require a total overhaul in how the mod is written, in that case it would be unreasonable to ask for tweakability.

I wonder if in the future a mod will be created that will have no recipes but still maintain massive levels of usage due to people tweaking in recipes anyway.

 

[Golrith]

I wonder if in the future a mod will be created that will have no recipes but still maintain massive levels of usage due to people tweaking in recipes anyway.

There already are. Tabula Rasa from King Lemming, CustomItems from InfinityRaider, and Quandrum by I forget who. Each mod in the list has more options available than the previous. These mods are great for filling the gaps in mods for pack makers. I've used CustomItems for an overhaul of the ore system for a better implementation of Poor Ores (and dense ores) than what Railcraft provides.

 

[Skyqula]

There was a thread on this forum that I tried to link to for the original post, but failed to find. It was a poll titled something like "Favorite ore processing in FTB monster", where the Extractor was at about 7% of the vote, whereas the pulverizer was over 50%. This was posted (and I read it), about four to six months ago. If you know where it is, go ahead and provide the link, and I will cite it in my post.

I'd like to add a little bit to this discussion.

When I see a pack that has MFR, Big reactors and anny ore doubler mod I go: GG, easy! The simple reason for this is that ore processing with MFR and big reactors no longer matters... at all!

Why do I say that? Because of MFR's laser drill in combination with the massive power output of a big reactor. The laser drill produces a massive amount of anny ore while the reactor produces massive amounts of power for very little fuel cost. Alot of reactor designs run fuel positive without reusing the waste product. And almost every reactor runs fuel positive if you do use the waste product. Even if you dont use anny foci to increase the amount of yellorite you get from the laser drill.

Why does this make ore doubling no longer matter? Because you can simply build reactors and laser drills all day and see bigger returns then trying to construct a x4/x5/x10/etc processing plant. Infact, with simplistic nether pumping for lava I would almost say TiC ore processing of nearly a stack at a time takes the cake (also looks cool, having a few rows of big smelteries).

I do agree with you though, this isnt realy a problem with the individual mods. Using lava without a pump/cross dimensional transport is actually quite balanced. A big reactor without an infinite fuel generator can never produce these insane amounts of power, you simply dont have the yellorite to make and fuel that reactor. And MFR does what it entends to do perfectly. Its just the combination thats completly off the charts. But here is where @Pyure gets it right. The power multipliers in MFR's and Big Reactors configs can balance this out. Reduce the power output of a BR reactor, increase the power cost of the laser drill and tada, you can actually make it balanced. You can push the break even point just far enough that other options become just as viable. (Monster does not do this btw)

Just my 2 cents on ore multiplication, why I think configs can make all the difference in a well made modpack. And why I agree with @Pyure that if a mod wants the highest rating, they atleast try to provide usefull config settings. If a mod dev wants to provide them is 100% there choice. It might just mean ill never play that mod, but I am perfectly fine with that.

 

[McJty]

Just my 2 cents on ore multiplication, why I think configs can make all the difference in a well made modpack. And why I agree with @Pyure that if a mod wants the highest rating, they atleast try to provide usefull config settings. Whater a mod dev wants to provide them is 100% there choice. It might just mean ill never play that mod, but I am perfectly fine with that.

In one respect I agree with that. However one should be careful with over-balancing. The reason people make the laser/big reactor combo is just because it is giving a net gain. If it wouldn't give a net gain then it wouldn't been done. After all, mods add stuff that Vanilla can't do. Which is the point at which the right balance lies? Every thing you make should give you *some* benefit and it is to be expected that mods give the player things that give you more benefits then what Vanilla minecraft can offer. So I would be careful to tweak the configs in such a way that you can no longer get a benefit of using the laser in combination with a big reactor. Perhaps the benefit shouldn't be as huge as it is now but I don't think you should nerf it. Otherwise, why are we building all those nifty machines and combining them in ways that the makers didn't consider? That's the beauty of all of this IMHO.

 

[Golrith]

Ideally, the MFR/BR combo should only just be power positive with full focus upgrades to maximise yellorium ore. Thus you "pay" for it with reduced chance of normal ores. The excess energy then is used for running your base.

 

[Skyqula]

In one respect I agree with that. However one should be careful with over-balancing. The reason people make the laser/big reactor combo is just because it is giving a net gain. If it wouldn't give a net gain then it wouldn't been done. After all, mods add stuff that Vanilla can't do. Which is the point at which the right balance lies? Every thing you make should give you *some* benefit and it is to be expected that mods give the player things that give you more benefits then what Vanilla minecraft can offer. So I would be careful to tweak the configs in such a way that you can no longer get a benefit of using the laser in combination with a big reactor. Perhaps the benefit shouldn't be as huge as it is now but I don't think you should nerf it. Otherwise, why are we building all those nifty machines and combining them in ways that the makers didn't consider? That's the beauty of all of this IMHO.

It should be nerfed because people dont need to design a reactor. Thankfully, meltdowns and coolant tweaks are planned. Wich will force people to think more carefully about there design. But just to give an idea, increase the power requirement of a laser drill by x10 and you can still turn positive without using foci.

Also I think @Reika has a point when mentioning the ore processing thread. People dont realy seem to advance to the endgame ore processing and thats because there are so manny options and cross mod exploits still there. And this MFR/BR combination is one that can easely be tweaked down abit in the configs. Not to the point of where it becomes impossible to get a net gain of fuel. But to push that point just far away enough that the advanced ore processing becomes just as viable.

 

[zilvarwolf]

I'd like to add a little bit to this discussion.

When I see a pack that has MFR, Big reactors and anny ore doubler mod I go: GG, easy! The simple reason for this is that ore processing with MFR and big reactors no longer matters... at all!

This is relevant to my current thoughts on ore doubling, progression, and hardmode/grindy subjects. I think it could be a positive step forward if ore doubling didn't. I'd like to see a mode where (to pull random numbers right out of my nose) a tier 1 SweetOreMachine gave a small bonus (say...10%) on each ore, perhaps in the form of a small dust pile that could be combined or automatically smelted 9 or 10 at a time.

In this fashion, ore multiplication still exists, but it becomes a slightly longer process and encourages further automation and control systems. Especially if SweetOreMachine could yield trace elements of other materials in the fashion of the pulverizer (so multiple outputs must be considered).

If more metal is desired, the SweetOreMachine could be put into easy mode, or additional ores could be coded into worldgen through one of the popular oregen mods like COFHCore.

 

[Reika]

It should be nerfed because people dont need to design a reactor. Thankfully, meltdowns and coolant tweaks are planned. Wich will force people to think more carefully about there design.

This sounds interesting, though I suspect it will have a strong negative impact on BigReactor's popularity, seeing as a lot of people who use it do so because it is so forgiving of mistakes.
One example exists above me.

Here is another.