Is the pattern for Obsidian from EE3 intended

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EternalDensity

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Does the usage ratio mean it would be more worthwhile to turn diamonds into iron? What about diamonds to gold?

Plan: to make a tier 5 Enderman soulshard without visiting the end, so I can can snark at people who suggest the end is necessary for enderpearls. :p
 

ItharianEngineering

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Does the usage ratio mean it would be more worthwhile to turn diamonds into iron? What about diamonds to gold?

Plan: to make a tier 5 Enderman soulshard without visiting the end, so I can can snark at people who suggest the end is necessary for enderpearls. :p
Well if you have a lot of diamonds you aren't using sure. But Diamonds into gold is 1 diamond for 4 gold which isn't as good, but you can get 8 iron for 1 gold.

Getting the kills for a soul shard is easy even for Endermen if you get lucky with a vile sword enchant and get a decent level of Soul Stealer.
 

Bickers

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a zombie pigman T5 spawner can net you ALOT of gold i enchanted 4-5 books and netted 3 stacks of gold from nuggets and melting swords down in alloy furnace what with EE made 48 diamonds took less then 30mins so 4 stacks of wood for 1 diamond isnt OP at all
 

Saice

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Plan: to make a tier 5 Enderman soulshard without visiting the end, so I can can snark at people who suggest the end is necessary for enderpearls. :p

I've done this one (it is how I got the one I'm using for Shoop corp's mothership). It is not to hard believe it or not.

First get up high so you don't have to deal with caves taken your spawn count. I usually go up to about 140-150 ish.
Next build a large spawning platform like any other spawn system only you want your sides open and cover the roof with water (so nothing spawns up there).
Now build a thin bridge away form this about 30-40 blocks I make them 3 block wide but YMMV.
Now build a tiny enderman proof area at the end of this bridge.

As the spawning platform fills up you just have to look at the endermen and they will come across the bridge to you.

I also make a 'reset' path away from the platform I can run down to force the mobs left over to despawn to speed things up. I also suggest getting a vile sword with the highest soul stealing you can get on it. too.
 

Hydra

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Gold and diamonds are not valuable. This is one of the biggest issues big, popular packs like these face. People are stuck in vanilla mindsets and think like they're still playing it.

I'm sorry but that's simply not true. Diamonds are valuable early game because you need them for a lot of 'nice' things and they are rather hard to find. I'm not talking about the moment in the game where you have 4 quarries running 24/7 and you are swimming in them. At game start one of the first things you do is doing some spelunking to get the materials for your first quarry / tree farm / whatever and that includes getting the diamonds you need for you basic setup. This takes time and at the start you have to really think about what to spend your diamonds on (do I save 11 for my first quarry or do I use 5 for a tree farm?).

EE3 completely defeats this by giving you too easy access to these 'high tier' materials through an item that you gather just from defending your base from the mobs that surround them.

I really do NOT understand why people defend the design choices of EE3. Early on it allows you to skip a lot of the choices you need to make on what to spend your diamonds on. The minium shards are very common drops. And later on the mod is completely useless. It makes NO sense whatsoever to have it in any pack in it's current incarnation.

If you want to skip having to find enough diamonds for a quarry or whatever in single player, be my guest and cheat some in. But on servers it lets people completely skip the early start of the game and it defeats the need of seting up access to a Nether fortress or the end.

And for the bazillionth time: game balance applies to servers. I have no opinion on how YOU play your game, that's up to you. I am talking about what in my opinion a server pack should and should not contain.
 
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Carrington

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I'm sorry but that's simply not true. Diamonds are valuable early game because you need them for a lot of 'nice' things and they are rather hard to find. I'm not talking about the moment in the game where you have 4 quarries running 24/7 and you are swimming in them. At game start one of the first things you do is doing some spelunking to get the materials for your first quarry / tree farm / whatever and that includes getting the diamonds you need for you basic setup. This takes time and at the start you have to really think about what to spend your diamonds on (do I save 11 for my first quarry or do I use 5 for a tree farm?).

EE3 completely defeats this by giving you too easy access to these 'high tier' materials through an item that you gather just from defending your base from the mobs that surround them.

I really do NOT understand why people defend the design choices of EE3. Early on it allows you to skip a lot of the choices you need to make on what to spend your diamonds on. The minium shards are very common drops. And later on the mod is completely useless. It makes NO sense whatsoever to have it in any pack in it's current incarnation.

If you want to skip having to find enough diamonds for a quarry or whatever in single player, be my guest and cheat some in. But on servers it lets people completely skip the early start of the game and it defeats the need of seting up access to a Nether fortress or the end.

And for the bazillionth time: game balance applies to servers. I have no opinion on how YOU play your game, that's up to you. I am talking about what in my opinion a server pack should and should not contain.

Balance applies to both sides in terms of positive design, but I tend to agree with your point. That said, EE3 is a sacred cow that will likely be in the pack regardless of balance concerns. My recommendation is simply disabling it.
 

GreenWolf13

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I'm going to quote a post from a similar discussion that came up in the technic forums. (Original post: http://forums.technicpack.net/threads/why-was-the-condenser-removed.34661/page-5#post-296295)

Perhaps I could make a more eloquent case. The real issue here (aside from a few bugs that gave server admins serious issues) is not one of balance, but a fundamental difference in play style. There are as many styles as there are people, but most of them are concentrated along a spectrum between what I'd call 'explorative' and 'creative'. It might help for me to expound a bit on both styles, and why they're in conflict. Hopefully, this will make it a bit easier to understand why some people are strongly in favor of removal or inclusion of EE.

Explorative players see minecraft as a competitive adventure. The entire point of the game is exploration, the thrill of discovery, and the satisfaction that comes from planning and building greater protections against the enemy elements of both the game and other players. Their hard work in uncovering resources in dangerous places results in a slow build-up of an empire, and their dedication can be (at least in part) measured by the virtual wealth amassed and the more valuable machinery purchased and outfitted.

Explorative players tend to find EE threatening or annoying because it provides a means to largely bypass the long acquisition phase of the game. This devalues their own acquisitions implicitly by removing their time-value. Time is one of the currencies by which people invest their lives, and the purchases carry the weight of attachment. That devaluation causes it to become very annoying and personal, and the people doing the devaluing seem to be gaining at their expense, hence the perception of cheating.

Creative players, on the other hand, see minecraft as a bucket of legos. The entire point of the game is the unleashing the imagination, creating entire worlds one block at a time, and the satisfaction that comes from planning and building grand vistas and intricate models. Their hard work in designing fantastic constructs and finding ingenious new uses for pieces results in a slow build-up of a wonderful mindscape of infinite possibility, and their dedication can be (at least in part) measured by the enjoyment of other players as they examine their creations.

Creative players tend to find EE an essential compromise that allows them to still have some of the more game-like aspects early on while quickly culminating in the gameplay that they find more interesting. Getting resources is a grind that becomes frustrating as it takes away their time while giving back ultimately very little. Taking away EE artificially stunts the scope and size of their creations, and causes resentment toward the people who seem to be championing the limiting of their creative potential, hence the perception of kill-joys.

There is an odd sort of symmetry between these positions, and as mentioned, it's a spectrum. Players often are somewhere inbetween the two positions, feeling more inclined toward one or the other, but uninterested in forsaking either entirely. As a correlary, the suggestion that creative players simply stick to 'creative' mode is usually unhelpful, as it requires abandoning all aspects of minecraft as a game, and (fairly or not) segregates them from most of the player base, as few servers run mixed-mode or pure creative. Social appreciation of creations is a large part of the draw for creative players, and being quarantined into their own group would also be frustrating for them.

I'm not entirely certain what would be a good solution to the conflict, but butting heads over mis-match assumptions and expectations is an exercise in futility. I'm hoping that we could perhaps direct this toward a more meaningful and productive discussion of potential solutions. Perhaps that's too much to expect, but hope springs eternal.
 

Toraxa

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I'm sorry but that's simply not true. Diamonds are valuable early game because you need them for a lot of 'nice' things and they are rather hard to find. I'm not talking about the moment in the game where you have 4 quarries running 24/7 and you are swimming in them. At game start one of the first things you do is doing some spelunking to get the materials for your first quarry / tree farm / whatever and that includes getting the diamonds you need for you basic setup. This takes time and at the start you have to really think about what to spend your diamonds on (do I save 11 for my first quarry or do I use 5 for a tree farm?).

EE3 completely defeats this by giving you too easy access to these 'high tier' materials through an item that you gather just from defending your base from the mobs that surround them.

I really do NOT understand why people defend the design choices of EE3. Early on it allows you to skip a lot of the choices you need to make on what to spend your diamonds on. The minium shards are very common drops. And later on the mod is completely useless. It makes NO sense whatsoever to have it in any pack in it's current incarnation.

If you want to skip having to find enough diamonds for a quarry or whatever in single player, be my guest and cheat some in. But on servers it lets people completely skip the early start of the game and it defeats the need of seting up access to a Nether fortress or the end.

And for the bazillionth time: game balance applies to servers. I have no opinion on how YOU play your game, that's up to you. I am talking about what in my opinion a server pack should and should not contain.

It's entirely true. 3 diamonds for a pick, or drill to open up access to obsidian, and thus the nether. 4 diamonds for an MFE, 6 more for an MFSU, 11 for a quarry, a couple for an automated tree farm. This is all the real "early game" applications I can think of. Most of the big uses for diamonds come from piling up MFSUs, building quantum armor, or trying to run half a dozen quarries at once. All things you do once your basics are handled.

The main use of diamonds in vanilla are tools and armor. Tools and armor that break and need replaced, or repaired. This is why vanilla players are so desperate for diamonds. They allow them to maintain their status and power through the use of diamond equipment. This is not the case for us in modded minecraft. Our best equipment is powered, and doesn't degrade, and our tools have fancy enchantments to repair them, are run on power, or are simply made of mod-added materials that're more easy to get than diamonds. We don't have to worry about keeping a supply up, lest we die in lava and have to go back to stone or iron.

I am the type of player who finds a spot to settle down when starting a new world, then immediately digs a staircase down to level 10 and goes to work stockpiling. Perhaps not everyone does this, but everyone I know and play with is the same. I had twenty diamonds sitting in a chest before I got enough minium shards to craft the thing, so it didn't enable me to skip anything. In my experience, if you've got thousands of blocks of wood sitting around to be turned into free diamonds, and those are the first diamonds you've ever gotten, then you must not actually be digging into the earth. You can get your first diamonds in minecraft, vanilla or modded, within ten or fifteen minutes if you get lucky and hit a vein of iron ore on your way down to bedrock. Getting eight minium shards requires building weapons, and spending time intentionally fighting monsters.

If you don't like EE3, that's fine. Don't like it. However, being totally against a mod with a lot of potential across the entire length of the game because it possibly allows people to skip ahead a bit, but only if they're not trying very hard to get there to begin with, is a little unfair in my opinion. This isn't EE2, where you had people building dark rooms as soon as possible so they can have a chest full of diamonds by the 24 hour mark. It's not EE2 where you have giant solar collector flowers running, pumping out giant stacks of red matter, and allowing the players to just magically transmute anything they could want with their brownie points. Being able to turn an hour worth of manual tree farming (or wandering exploration) into a few diamonds still puts you well behind the curve, and isn't really comparable to the old version.
 

Hydra

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If you don't like EE3, that's fine. Don't like it. However, being totally against a mod with a lot of potential across the entire length of the game because it possibly allows people to skip ahead a bit, but only if they're not trying very hard to get there to begin with, is a little unfair in my opinion.

I'm 'against' EE3 in it's current incarnation. And any incarnation where it just simply 'ties' together abundant stuff like iron with rare stuff like gold or diamonds for basically no cost at all. If the author is going to completely fix it; fine. By that time the decision can be made whether to include it or not. All I am saying is that in it's current incarnation it does more harm on servers than it does good.

I'm not being 'unfair' to the mod or whatever: I am just stating my opinion on what it currently does. And currently it will let you create diamonds without even having found any, without any serious investment into machines or time.

Also: you're really overstating how 'hard' it is to get minium shards. Making a weapon is one of the first things you do in minecraft because once it gets dark you know stuff is going to come at you. Heck, I had 15 minium shards just from defending myself during the night or during cavediving even before I knew what they did.

I am sorry but most people here who disagree with me (and disagreeing is fine, everyone has their own opinions) either do so in a rather agressive way, or they hugely overstate how hard it is to get a minium stone and hugely understate the impact on early-game when diamonds are still really precious. What's up with that? Is it personal when some simply thinks a certain mod makes a certain thing too easy?
 

Golrith

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Agreed about the diamonds, I had the initial trouble of finding enough diamonds so had to think hard about what I was going to use them on. Finally after a long time of digging around level 10 I now have a quarry and about 12 left over diamonds to work with. Now I don't need to worry too much about diamonds, if my quarry will find more.
What I'm finding to be more valuable at the moment is copper. I'm not finding large veins, and I'm eating it up very quickly building the machines. In the long term, now I have the basics, I will need more copper then diamonds.

I had to make a minium stone purely for waterproofing, no sign of any deserts near me. Same situation DW20 had in his LP. That was the only use I had for the stone. Without it, I would have most likely have had to make the decision to go straight to liquiducts (which I have now), but early game, that would have been a massive hit of resources, especially on my very low stocks of copper.

EE3 should allow the conversion between items of similar types. Wood to Obsidian and Iron to Ender Pearls should be removed, or the durability cost on the minium stone should be based on the conversion. If stone to dirt costs 1 charge, then iron to gold should cost 5, and iron to ender pearls should cost 50. Thus you'd eat up your minimum stone a lot quicker.
If the P.Stone has no durability, then that just throws the whole concept of an ongoing cost (no matter how minor) out the window, and you are back into the realms of EE2. Just have a turtle that can use the stones, and you've got your automated conversion systems back again, just like the condensor, but just a bit more awkward.

Still very early days at the moment for EE3, but so far, what is available just seems to be exactly the same as EE2 with none of the lessons learnt that caused EE2 to be disabled on many servers.

Minimum stone also shouldn't have a crafting table in my opinion. Save that feature for an upgraded stone.
 

DoctorOr

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It's entirely true. 3 diamonds for a pick, or drill to open up access to obsidian, and thus the nether. 4 diamonds for an MFE, 6 more for an MFSU, 11 for a quarry, a couple for an automated tree farm.

You can get access to the nether with a lava pool and a bucket. MFE and MFSU both can be built with rubies. IC2 can turn any stack of coal into a diamond.

In FTB, diamonds are not important or rare.

That being said, EE3 at its current use-per-stone has the potential to turn the game into sit-around-at-home-and-farm-craft. I'd turn uses per stone way down. I mean **way** down. Like 10. That would make it more like a magic mass fabricator and less like manna from heaven.
 

Golrith

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You can get access to the nether with a lava pool and a bucket. MFE and MFSU both can be built with rubies. IC2 can turn any stack of coal into a diamond.

In FTB, diamonds are not important or rare.

That being said, EE3 at its current use-per-stone has the potential to turn the game into sit-around-at-home-and-farm-craft. I'd turn uses per stone way down. I mean **way** down. Like 10. That would make it more like a magic mass fabricator and less like manna from heaven.
Rubies can only be used if using Greg Tech, don't forget there are different combo's of the packs, with different resulting interactions between mods.
 

raiju

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if you're using gregtech you don't need as many diamonds early game but you will need many late-game. thousands of iridium plates which cost diamonds too. There comes a point where uranium is more a drawback then diamonds though if you are using either solar or nuclear.

If you aren't using gregtech, diamonds aren't replaced with sapphires/rubies and therefore much more important for anyone doing IC2.

A pigman spawner for gold is much more gamebreaking than any obsidian farm though for conversions. I set one up on my current server for exp without really thinking about the drops. We've scrapped stacks of blocks of gold since and void everything from it for weeks now.
 

KirinDave

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I'm 'against' EE3 in it's current incarnation. And any incarnation where it just simply 'ties' together abundant stuff like iron with rare stuff like gold or diamonds for basically no cost at all. If the author is going to completely fix it; fine. By that time the decision can be made whether to include it or not. All I am saying is that in it's current incarnation it does more harm on servers than it does good.

I think EE3's design is canny, and the original concept of EE (exchanging common resources for rare ones at exponentially increasing costs) is a good one in mixed mod games. Vanilla Minecraft values diamonds heavily, and we've all been conditioned to say, "Zomg diamonds! Meh Iron." The tech progression for Mindcrack and Direwolf20 is such that diamonds are really only useful in a few specific stages. If you exchange all your iron out for diamonds, then you're going to spend more time mining still because the mixed modpacks we play demand a huge diversity of resources, and they've cleverly modified ore gen such that we can't even just have ONE branch mine, we need to canvas the 0-15, 20-40, and 40-60 regions for different resources.

I think the #1 thing people use EE3 for is transmuting some base objects around so as to give them more freedom in choosing their spawn. A good example of this is dyes, wood, and terrain blocks. The only really exceptional recipe is the Ender Pearl recipe, but Redpower has been making those very easy to farm for quite some time now.

I run low on Iron, Tin and Lead far more quickly than I run low on gold or diamonds now that I finally have good size mines, and I'm told my experience is not unusual.

Also: you're really overstating how 'hard' it is to get minium shards. Making a weapon is one of the first things you do in minecraft because once it gets dark you know stuff is going to come at you. Heck, I had 15 minium shards just from defending myself during the night or during cavediving even before I knew what they did.

You also need inert stones; so like every mod it demands a few hours of vanilla mining. And as anyone who has tried to make lots of ender pearls recently can tell you, you break the stones quickly.

I am sorry but most people here who disagree with me (and disagreeing is fine, everyone has their own opinions)

I think a lot of people just get the impression that you haven't tried out EE3 very much yet. What it does in terms of balance is very small compared to Mystcraft. And it actually has much less potential for abuse than some thaumcraft stuff. And of course, there is the Soul Shards mod? One of the few semi-rare holdout items is blaze rods and Soul Shards can basically provide any mixed-mod power system with infinite energy and resources at a very low cost.
 

raiju

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mystcraft isn't currently on mindcrack, so for the people most concerned about balance it's a non-issue. All of thaumcrafts transmutes incur loss that I can tell and compared to other mods a lot of items are really lacklustre, not seeing the problem there. Soul-shards is ridiculously OP even without the soulstealer enchant.
 

Carrington

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Saying TC3 transmutes are remotely equivalent to EE is ridiculous. Aura is an extremely finite resource. Absent Mystcraft 'aura worlds', you have to put a very large amount of time and effort into renewing Aura, or load large numbers of chunks to 'drag' the distant aura back to your base via rebalancing.
 

Hydra

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You also need inert stones; so like every mod it demands a few hours of vanilla mining. And as anyone who has tried to make lots of ender pearls recently can tell you, you break the stones quickly.

I'm sorry but I'm not going to compete with people who spread false information just to get their point across. First of all, all you need for an inert stone is 4 stone, 4 iron and 1 gold. If that takes you "a few hours" than I can fully understand why you'd want a mod like EE3.

Secondly: you can make 1500 ender pearls with a single stone. If that "breaks the stone quickly" I really wonder what you used those 1500 pearls for.
 

HeffronCM

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Saying TC3 transmutes are remotely equivalent to EE is ridiculous. Aura is an extremely finite resource. Absent Mystcraft 'aura worlds', you have to put a very large amount of time and effort into renewing Aura, or load large numbers of chunks to 'drag' the distant aura back to your base via rebalancing.

Or do knowledge fragment research for the fairly cheap and easily crafted tool that recharges and overcharges the local node.

Secondly: you can make 1500 ender pearls with a single stone. If that "breaks the stone quickly" I really wonder what you used those 1500 pearls for.
1500 pearls would cost 6000 iron. I understand that 'balance' in minecraft modding is fully about opinion, but try to understand other's viewpoints. Breaking the stone quickly to get pearls refers to the rest of the conversation in the thread, which is about turning wood into obsidian into others. One stone can make 72 pearls out of wood logs. Does this make Ender Pearls too easy to get? Depends on who you ask. For me, they've always been a fairly abundant and easily farmed resource, so this seems like a poor use of a minium stone compared to producing clay from iron or iron from gold.
 

KirinDave

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Saying TC3 transmutes are remotely equivalent to EE is ridiculous. Aura is an extremely finite resource. Absent Mystcraft 'aura worlds', you have to put a very large amount of time and effort into renewing Aura, or load large numbers of chunks to 'drag' the distant aura back to your base via rebalancing.

I'm not actually talking about transmutes. Thaumcraft brought back divining rods. It's super strong and they're repairable. EE2's most broken feature was collectors. Its second most broken feature was infinite philosopher's stones. Its third most broken feature was insanely easy-to-get divining rods that were incredibly, incredibly, incredibly good. Incredibly good.

The Thaumcraft version is not nearly so broken as all that, but they're very strong because you can repair them even without an enchant. And with an enchant, they skyrocket ore production in mixed mod games.

Don't get me wrong; I love the new items with a passion. I'm just saying if someone wants to start taking issue with new features for resource generation, lots of mods have them. And also; it is very easy to have more aura than you could possibly ever use now. It takes time to set up and it requires some thought, but it's there.

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I'm sorry but I'm not going to compete with people who spread false information just to get their point across. First of all, all you need for an inert stone is 4 stone, 4 iron and 1 gold. If that takes you "a few hours" than I can fully understand why you'd want a mod like EE3.

Stop being so defensive. I'm just saying you have work to start out and you have a lot of vanilla work to do before you can get started using the mod. You have to farm the shards, get some gold, get enough iron to spare, etc. If you play on hard mode and you make a minium stone before you have the resources to farm you are going to die over and over. If that's your game word.

Secondly: you can make 1500 ender pearls with a single stone.

Not from nothing, you can't. Unless you're auto-mining a crap ton of iron (6k bars?) in which case you're well past the stage where this conversation has any meaning.

If that "breaks the stone quickly" I really wonder what you used those 1500 pearls for.

I keep breaking my minium stones making sand for thaumcraft research.
 

DoctorOr

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Or do knowledge fragment research for the fairly cheap and easily crafted tool that recharges and overcharges the local node.

At the cost of flux. Enough flux - and the only flux generating in my area - to create hundreds of wisps.