Infernal Furnace + Native Ore Clusters vs Pulverizer (FTB Ultimate)

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phazon76

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Jul 29, 2019
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What do you guys think is better? I find infernal furnaces have a very high chance to produce nuggets with the bellows installed (using native clusters) , but the pulverizer has a small chance of producing one whole ingot. (1 dust but its technically a ingot).

Also once ive made my choice of either, will it be obvious to replace them with an industrial grinder? Or is an industrial grinder even worth it?
 

DoctorOr

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Jul 29, 2019
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If you have three bellows, the infernal furnace is every so slightly better than the pulverizer, but falls far behind both industrial grinder and the factorization process.

Without three bellows, the furnace is way behind.
 
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brujon

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Jul 29, 2019
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Like i posted in another thread, to actually get the best yield, the best thing you can do, is mix and match...

Induction Smelter from TE gives you a chance of getting Rich Slag every time you smelt an Ore with Sand, as well as giving you two ingots. That should be plenty for the more common ores: Iron, Copper & Tin.

Now you save that Rich Slag, because it's coming into place soon...

The more uncommon ores, the ones you'll not find many of, you chuck down the Factorization line of processing, for the juicy 300%+ output...

Then you take those Ingots you made in the Factorization line, which should be the more uncommon metals, such as Silver, Gold, Ferrous Meta, Shiny Metal, Lead, etc... And you choose the one you have the most uses for.

You pulverize/macerate the ingots back into dust, and smelt them again with Rich slag in an Induction Smelter. It gives you 1 extra ingot per 2 dust, so another 50% increase, for your most precious metals. So, 1 Ore = 4 to 5 ingots. That's enough to put Gold & Silver roughly on par with the amount of Tin.

If you quarry using an Arcane Bore fitted with a Pickaxe of the Core, you'll get Native Clusters, but they're not 100% of the time... Those you toss into your Infernal Furnace with 3 Bellows for a similar yield to Factorization process, while the other ores you process in the manner i described.

This works out better if you don't have Gregtech Installed, since if you do, it's probably better to use the Industrial Grinder, simply because it's the only way of getting any reasonable amount of some of the rarer stuff the mod adds, but for DW20, which is what i usually play, this setup is what i've found to work out the best. I've found during normal play, that pulverizing even large amounts of Ores don't usually give me that many dusts, while going straight for the Induction Smelter gives me the possibility of using that Rich Slag to basically get a free ingot out of ANY type i choose, which i think is MUCH more powerful - enough to justify processing all common ores through Smelters. It's not so bad, they work pretty fast, though it wouldn't be a bad idea to have at least 4 of them running in tandem with 4 pulverizers and 4 igneous extruders. (Igneous Extruder > Cobble > Pulverizer > Sand > Smelter)

This process of re-smelting the ingots with rich slag after pulverizing them also gives you quite a lot of Rockwool, which you can use to build colored structures that are blast resistant and non-burning. Very nice. One thing i'd suggest in the Factorization processing line, though, is having multiple Crystallizers, at least one for each type of Ore you process through Factorization, just because of the fact that they will not work if there is more than one type of ore in the slots there... The Crystallized stuff can be smelted in a hurry in Induction Furnaces. You will also have to periodically visit the Crystallizers and distribute the fine ore sand in the slots, so that the process doesn't take 20+ RL hours.

So, this is probably one of the most efficient setups you could do in-game to process all the ore and get the best yields overall. YMMV, since it depends on what kind of metal you're hurting for the most at the moment, but at least with Rich Slag, you can have more metal on demand.
 

DoctorOr

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You pulverize/macerate the ingots back into dust, and smelt them again with Rich slag in an Induction Smelter. It gives you 1 extra ingot per 2 dust, so another 50% increase, for your most precious metals. So, 1 Ore = 4 to 5 ingots. That's enough to put Gold & Silver roughly on par with the amount of Tin.

You're pretty clearly either re-posting somebody elses message without reading and understanding it, or playing on such an old version that you should know better.

The induction smelter only allows the use of rich slag with ores, and has required it for some time. The change was made specifically to remove the exploit you're suggesting.
 

crazy_fab

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Jul 29, 2019
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And by the way factorisation only work for cooper tin iron gold and silver (and produce lead as a byproduct of silver).
The best ressources per ore would probably be gregtech but it is also the most expensive.
 

Saice

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Jul 29, 2019
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If you have three bellows, the infernal furnace is every so slightly better than the pulverizer, but falls far behind both industrial grinder and the factorization process.

Without three bellows, the furnace is way behind.

In my current thuam only(ish) build this is perty much what I do and yeah you can see the little port on the sides and back for all three bellows.

I just have a hungry chest in the floor in front of it and two brains in a jars. works nice
 

KirinDave

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Jul 29, 2019
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The reason you'd want to use the infernal furnace is for capturing smelting experience. Otherwise it's very difficult to make it competitive, output wise.

But, as a last step in a multi-strategy smelting line it makes a lot of sense. It has a huge multi-type buffer, is very wide, doesn't take power, is pretty fast, and the flux is fairly easy to mitigate unless you have a constant intake of resources (and even then if you have pure bees). So there is that.
 

brujon

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Jul 29, 2019
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You're pretty clearly either re-posting somebody elses message without reading and understanding it, or playing on such an old version that you should know better.

The induction smelter only allows the use of rich slag with ores, and has required it for some time. The change was made specifically to remove the exploit you're suggesting.

Not an exploit in my opinion, but thanks for the forewarning, i'll keep this in mind when eventually the server updates. This for me is precisely what made the smelter the real superior option, since you could store the rich slag as a "catch all" metal for when you needed more of something else. If it's now disabled, there's not really any point in using anything but Factorization for the yields, big and costly as the setup may be.
 

slay_mithos

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Jul 29, 2019
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Not an exploit in my opinion, but thanks for the forewarning, i'll keep this in mind when eventually the server updates. This for me is precisely what made the smelter the real superior option, since you could store the rich slag as a "catch all" metal for when you needed more of something else. If it's now disabled, there's not really any point in using anything but Factorization for the yields, big and costly as the setup may be.
Well, rich slag can still serve to have 3 ingots from 1 ores, so a 300% output.
The only thing that changed is that it only works with Ores (the block), so that it prevents the duplication of metal that came without ore form, but had a dust (platinium among others).
 

phazon76

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Jul 29, 2019
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The reason you'd want to use the infernal furnace is for capturing smelting experience

And it looks cool, lol. I really like magic mods.I wish feed the beast could make ultimate (and the other mod packs) a little more balanced,though. Like theres no point to the macerator when theres a pulverizer, heck the only good thing worth getting in gregtech is the grinder and the distillation tower. Also, ive played direwolf20 and tech world alot and it just seems that once you get your op tech stuff up and running, magic mods feel kinda obsolete (saddening as thaumcraft is one of my favorite mods). Then again, tech machines are the most expensive so its sorta like getting an "upgrade." Idk. Whats your opinion?
 

brujon

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Jul 29, 2019
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Everyone forgets that the Macerator can take upgrades, while the pulverizer cannot. When you start getting loads of resources, pulverizer becomes your restriction point. Before anyone notes that we have the rotary macerator, vanilla macerator with appropriate upgrades can still run faster, but it's a massive energy hog.

Automation is not really the focus of Thaumcraft... It's more about fun and doing things differently. Who would've thought of something like the arcane levitator? How about how useful the warded stone blocks are? They look good, are dyable, and they're arguably even more secure then MFFS. Boots of the traveller are really nice. You don't need to sprint anymore because your walk speed = sprint speed. plus jump higher (but not silly high like the Quantum boots). Wand of Excavation is really quite nice for getting those hard to reach ores without having to pillar up, Wand of Lightning is a straight upgrade from the bow... etc... It's not about function over form, nor is it about form over function, but more of a combination, of things that look good and do useful things. Like golems. Most of what they can do can be accomplished by machines, but unlike machines, they're mobile. Like how a straw golem can keep track of a whole arbitrarily infinite wheat field because it constantly resets it's position and updates looking for more wheat to harvest, and if it's intelligent, to replant seeds. Sure, you can set up a deployer/block breaker wheat farm, but why not do a regular sized farm with wood and straw golems, which looks much nicer, but works out more or less the same as far as output goes?

Thaumcraft really is a well done mod. Azanor should really get more credit than he already does, it'll never be enough.
 

DoctorOr

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Everyone forgets that the Macerator can take upgrades, while the pulverizer cannot. When you start getting loads of resources, pulverizer becomes your restriction point. Before anyone notes that we have the rotary macerator, vanilla macerator with appropriate upgrades can still run faster, but it's a massive energy hog.

Nobody forgets it, it's just not relevant. A pulverizer can keep up with a quarry, since most things it mines are not ore. And if you want two quarries, get two pulverizers.

Automation is not really the focus of Thaumcraft

Thaumcraft is one of the few ways to keep an inventory stocked with exactly X number of items. The other is RP managers, which means you have to manage power and use over a half stack of redstone for every one.
 

brujon

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Jul 29, 2019
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Does that make automation the focus of thaumcraft? Did i say that golems had no use in automation?

And pulverizers can keep up with BC Quarries, which are one of the least efficient ways of large scale mining. The speed at which they pulverize things start being a concern in many builds. The poster i was referring to was talking about how Pulverizers make Macerators redundant, and i was talking precisely about how they're not irrelevant. You can have one macerator to smelt all of your ores regardless of the amount you feed into it with proper upgrades, and that will mean less tube clutter, and smaller builds, which are very important in some cases. Pulverizers are definitely very good, but they're not the be all end all of ore processing. If you're doing really large scale mining, you don't really need the extra resources it gives you in the way of bonus dusts, and you definitely need the extra speed. Plus, if you start out with IC2, which some choose to because they want early access to the mining drill and jetpack, they're nice. That said, GT makes them really bad because of the cost. To me it's the nerf that makes the least sense, but i don't play with GT so that's not what i was referring to.

It's nice to have options.
 

DoctorOr

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And pulverizers can keep up with BC Quarries, which are one of the least efficient ways of large scale mining. The speed at which they pulverize things start being a concern in many builds.

If pulverizer speed is an actual concern, and not a never realized napkin-math presumed problem, you can just add a second and still get the increased output. Pulverizers don't make macerators redundant, that would imply they were equal. Pulverizers make macerators inferior choices.
 

ShneekeyTheLost

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If pulverizer speed is an actual concern, and not a never realized napkin-math presumed problem, you can just add a second and still get the increased output. Pulverizers don't make macerators redundant, that would imply they were equal. Pulverizers make macerators inferior choices.
To further add to this, DW20 has so much input that it's overloading multiple sorting machines pulling from the same enderchest, and yet this pulverizers have never been a choke-point the whole season.

The only time Pulverizer Speed really has any meaning is if you are trying to make a batch of something really quickly, for example you realized you were out of Hardened Glass and started pulverizing a bunch of obsidian.
 

brujon

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Jul 29, 2019
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Right, they're inferior because pulverizers give you 5 to 15% increased yields. Wow. That's like... Wow. I don't even know what to say. This is completely game changing. Call the news, because that's gamebreaking right there.

Better warn the IC2 dev team, because they got outclassed big time by a machine that doesn't scale it's speed and takes a completely different kind of energy producing scheme to setup.

In all seriousness, you either didn't read my post, or you fail at reading comprehension. I said that they're both useful in completely different sets of circumstances, if you cannot grasp the simplicity of such a statement, i'm sorry.

1) Try and build an efficient UU-matter solar factory using pulverizers. Oh right, why bother integrating a machine that both can't handle the amount of ores that need macerating/smelting and takes a completely different type of energy.

2) Try strip mining with turtles to get 80x80 areas mined in the same time it takes for a BC quarry to clear out a 9x9 while taking maximum power, and see if pulverizers are able to keep with the output. Or try a machine like the mining well on frames that DW20 used, but scaled larger.

Do pulverizers give you better yields for your ores? Yes.
Do pulverizers are generally the superior choice for the early-mid game? Yes.
Do they keep up when you step up the mining game and need lightning fast maceratings to keep up? No.
Are they fast enough to keep up with on-demand crafting requiring macerating from AE in all circumstances? No.

If after this you can't see the advantage of having a macerator set up in those circumstances, then i don't see the need of discussing this any further. Just because one block does basically the same thing another block does in a different way, doesn't mean it's automagically better in 100% of the cases, and if you don't see the benefits of adding both to a base setup, then i'm sorry, again.
 

ShneekeyTheLost

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Right, they're inferior because pulverizers give you 5 to 15% increased yields. Wow. That's like... Wow. I don't even know what to say. This is completely game changing. Call the news, because that's gamebreaking right there.

Better warn the IC2 dev team, because they got outclassed big time by a machine that doesn't scale it's speed and takes a completely different kind of energy producing scheme to setup.
Ahh, non-contextual scarcasm at its finest. And aimed directly at strawmen, no less.

In all seriousness, you either didn't read my post, or you fail at reading comprehension. I said that they're both useful in completely different sets of circumstances, if you cannot grasp the simplicity of such a statement, i'm sorry.

1) Try and build an efficient UU-matter solar factory using pulverizers. Oh right, why bother integrating a machine that both can't handle the amount of ores that need macerating/smelting and takes a completely different type of energy.
Or... obviate it entirely by not playing creative mode with UUM.

2) Try strip mining with turtles to get 80x80 areas mined in the same time it takes for a BC quarry to clear out a 9x9 while taking maximum power, and see if pulverizers are able to keep with the output. Or try a machine like the mining well on frames that DW20 used, but scaled larger.
Been there, done that. Like it was pointed out... ores represent a small fraction of what a machine like that outputs. Your enderchest sending materials to your base is going to cap out long before your pulverizers will.

Do pulverizers give you better yields for your ores? Yes.
Do pulverizers are generally the superior choice for the early-mid game? Yes.
Do they keep up when you step up the mining game and need lightning fast maceratings to keep up? No. Yes, because they don't need lightning-fast maceratings.
Are they fast enough to keep up with on-demand crafting requiring macerating from AE in all circumstances? No.
FIFY

If after this you can't see the advantage of having a macerator set up in those circumstances, then i don't see the need of discussing this any further. Just because one block does basically the same thing another block does in a different way, doesn't mean it's automagically better in 100% of the cases, and if you don't see the benefits of adding both to a base setup, then i'm sorry, again.

Simple problems have simple solutions. For example, AE. Here's what you do: it's called a buffer. Set it up to keep, say, a stack of Refined Iron or whatever you cook up on hand at any given time. That should be enough for most small projects. Make more if you know you're building up for a big project ahead of time.

Sorry. Most of the projects that require stacks and stacks of macerated crap are... IC2 projects. Generally some variation on an HV Solar Plant. Remove the mod, remove the problem.
 

brujon

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Jul 29, 2019
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Oh, so you're saying the Pulverizer is better except for IC2 projects? Gotcha... And there's a much better way of doing overflow that almost no-one does, that is simply voiding the cobble before it enters your sorting system. Guess what? Mining turtles do exactly that, they can avoid mining 90% of the cobble by simply using the Compare function. They can also ignore dirt, sand, and gravel. If you like, you can even add a Compare/Drop function after every time they go to the chest to drop the items, so that they drop any cobble/dirt/sand they've collected whilst mining, so that ALL that's going to your sorting system are Ores, Gems and Dusts. That is just one of the reasons why turtles are the superior way of mining.

You say UUM is creative mode? I digress. You need a lot of infrastructure set up before you can even do something meaningful with UUM, and to fuel big projects, you need some serious energy production setups.

Using AE to keep a buffer, that i can get behind. But it's not always that you have enough of whatever you need. Sometimes you need to macerate a lot of cobble to turn it into sand, to be smelted into glass later. Or you need a lot of Blaze Powder, but all you have are Blaze Rods. Etc... Oh, and guess what? The best way to smelt stuff lightning fast is also IC2, it's called induction furnace.

The Pulverizer does not obviate the need for a macerator in any and all cases. There are at least a few cases where the macerator is clearly the superior choice, and the more you approach the endgame, the more it becomes so. And what is the point of playing in a modpack if you don't use every mod to it's potential? Completely ignore IC2? Why? It offers you a load of options that cannot be found in other mods, such as UUM for instance, and early game flight. Also the best armor combo which is the Quantum Suit, which requires the Nano Leggings which, you guessed it, requires TONS of macerators.

And, finally, diamonds out of coal. It's a stack of macerated coal per Diamond. And you need a compressor for it. It would be foolish not to add such a useful recipe on an AE network, and to macerate the amount of coal needed to request, say, 10 diamonds? Yeah, better get that macerator up and running.

You didn't address my points, you didn't disprove my claim that the macerator is a necessity, or rather, something to be desired, in a lot of situations. It's not something that can be completely replaced and obviated by the Pulverizer. It's, in fact, something to be used along with, and in addition to, the pulverizer, in many a setup. Normally what i do, is start with a pulverizer, and once i get a massive income of ores, change it up to macerators, and sometimes, i still keep some pulverizers in my system for some of it's more advantageous recipes. The best thing to do is not choose one or the other, but use BOTH, to full effect.
 

Memorian

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Jul 29, 2019
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2) Try strip mining with turtles to get 80x80 areas mined in the same time it takes for a BC quarry to clear out a 9x9 while taking maximum power, and see if pulverizers are able to keep with the output. Or try a machine like the mining well on frames that DW20 used, but scaled larger.

Dont compare one quarry with an army of turtles. if you want to mine out an 80X80 area at diamond level, use a hadnfull of quarries at y level 20 instead, it doenst make sence to compare 1 machines to stack of them. by that logic the best way of mining is a server full of players using iron pickaxes since they can go caving and use their eyes to compare blocks faster than a turtle can