If there had to be only one energy type...
- Thread starter varkarrus
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You've left out steam, heat (burning things such as coal/etc), and vis.
Personally, I am extremely glad that there is not only a single type of energy.
EU is for people that like Big Numbers.
MJ is for people that like to see the energy flowing
BT is for people that need everything to be just like Real Life(tm).
MJ is for people that like to see the energy flowing
BT is for people that need everything to be just like Real Life(tm).
I want Thaumcraft to introduce Evil Energy! You trap a critter in this really diabolical device and then it starts draining away their years using water wheels and suction cups. Then after draining away a year or so ask the subject how they feel.
Oh, that's Princess Bride, never mind.
Oh, that's Princess Bride, never mind.
I agree with brujon that your mileage may wary... but for me, from a conceptual standpoint, Blutricity takes the cake. It's an amazing system with a lot of depth, and yet, just about all of its depth is completely emergent from extremely simple math. There's no need to go and devise special rules for how the energy network behaves. There's just two simple equations (V *A = W = J/s, and R = V / A), and everything Blutricity is and does derives directly from them, in combination with the physical properties of the cables/machines/etc.
Buildcraft pipes lose energy at random when a consumer is connected, but don't lose any energy if there is no consumer, instead collecting and holding energy ad infinitum (until it overloads, that is). Why? Because a mod author said so, regardless of whether it makes sense or not. Redstone conduits teleport energy around while ignoring distance in favor of paying a flat usage fee, and you need at least two blocks of conduit to connect and input and an output. Why? Because a mod developer said so, regardless of whether it makes sense or not. Industrialcraft machines ship energy parcels around like FedEx, and the difference between 39 and 40 blocks of distance is the difference between a solar panel producing 100% power and 0% power. Why? Because a mod developer said so, regardless of whether it makes sense or not.
With Blutricity, however, everything follows those two basic laws of nature, and therefore everything behaves as it should, as it is expected to. No compromises in simulation that lead to weird corner cases. No idiosyncratic, situation-dependant behavior differences. Just basic multiplication and division.
Blutricity's big problem, of course, is that it is confined to one mod, and therefore woefully underdeveloped compared to the big and beefy Buildcraft and Industrialcraft ecosystems with their dozens of support and crossover mods. If it was open and cross-compatible, I'm fairly sure that it would get a lot more usage and fans. It's a bit like what Universal Electricity is trying to do, except they fail on game balance on such a colossal scale that a third of the machines are less fuel efficient than the vanilla furnace but as expensive as some GregTech stuff, while another third is in the realm of 'place this mid-tier block down, connect a cable and never worry about energy supply ever again', and the final third is 'why does this even exist, there's no practical need to actually use what this thing is offering... well I suppose it looks sort of neat while sitting there'. It's another thing Blutricity does right: the (sadly few) blocks there are, are all well priced, well balanced, offer sought after applications both mainstream and niche, and follow a logical progression tree.
Eloraam really did an amazing job with her power system. There are more than a few parts in Redpower for which I'll happily criticize her, but this is not one of them. So while I realize that Blutricity as it is right now wouldn't actually work as an universal energy system (near zero cross-mod support, obviously unfinished), I still choose it as my favorite in this poll.
Buildcraft pipes lose energy at random when a consumer is connected, but don't lose any energy if there is no consumer, instead collecting and holding energy ad infinitum (until it overloads, that is). Why? Because a mod author said so, regardless of whether it makes sense or not. Redstone conduits teleport energy around while ignoring distance in favor of paying a flat usage fee, and you need at least two blocks of conduit to connect and input and an output. Why? Because a mod developer said so, regardless of whether it makes sense or not. Industrialcraft machines ship energy parcels around like FedEx, and the difference between 39 and 40 blocks of distance is the difference between a solar panel producing 100% power and 0% power. Why? Because a mod developer said so, regardless of whether it makes sense or not.
With Blutricity, however, everything follows those two basic laws of nature, and therefore everything behaves as it should, as it is expected to. No compromises in simulation that lead to weird corner cases. No idiosyncratic, situation-dependant behavior differences. Just basic multiplication and division.
Blutricity's big problem, of course, is that it is confined to one mod, and therefore woefully underdeveloped compared to the big and beefy Buildcraft and Industrialcraft ecosystems with their dozens of support and crossover mods. If it was open and cross-compatible, I'm fairly sure that it would get a lot more usage and fans. It's a bit like what Universal Electricity is trying to do, except they fail on game balance on such a colossal scale that a third of the machines are less fuel efficient than the vanilla furnace but as expensive as some GregTech stuff, while another third is in the realm of 'place this mid-tier block down, connect a cable and never worry about energy supply ever again', and the final third is 'why does this even exist, there's no practical need to actually use what this thing is offering... well I suppose it looks sort of neat while sitting there'. It's another thing Blutricity does right: the (sadly few) blocks there are, are all well priced, well balanced, offer sought after applications both mainstream and niche, and follow a logical progression tree.
Eloraam really did an amazing job with her power system. There are more than a few parts in Redpower for which I'll happily criticize her, but this is not one of them. So while I realize that Blutricity as it is right now wouldn't actually work as an universal energy system (near zero cross-mod support, obviously unfinished), I still choose it as my favorite in this poll.
That's kind of implemented in Ars Magica, there's the Dark Nexus which captures mobs and disintegrates them into energy for use in all sorts of stuff.
The poll is missing Universal Electricity. Which is, of all the mods FTB supports, the best by far in terms of practically offering an accurate model of electricity. Even Blutricity's modeling choices are somewhat arbitrary by comparison. And UE is open and designed for inclusion, whereas the other mods are strictly not. You do not need to approach someone, hat in hand, and ask if you can build on the work of others (which was itself built on the work of Mojang and offered in a spirit far more generous than any other game company you can name offhand would allow) as those mod authors look hypocritically at you and ask themselves if they feel like stifling your chance to enjoy the same opportunity they did.
I think a close second is Buildcraft energy, for the above-mentioned reasons. It is unfortunate that it's such an intractable energy source without Thermal Expansion around. Oh, and Factorization's model is actually really cool and Neptune's recipes are really fun (I love how you make magnets!). I love how he's changed things to make his power generation system weird and stepwise and you can toss in his components in the railcraft universe. That's exactly the way you should do it.
I really hope soon FTB starts supporting a modpack that is like Direwolf20, but substitutes UE for all the IC2 stuff. I think this would be amazing, and with the notable exception of Xycraft and Redpower2 everything is available under a redistributable license. That's awesome. And we could probably find an open mod to sub in for the critical stuff from Redpower2.
Actually... I could make this modpack and technicpack it... It'd be really easy to do; all those mods are such well-behaved citizens...
I think a close second is Buildcraft energy, for the above-mentioned reasons. It is unfortunate that it's such an intractable energy source without Thermal Expansion around. Oh, and Factorization's model is actually really cool and Neptune's recipes are really fun (I love how you make magnets!). I love how he's changed things to make his power generation system weird and stepwise and you can toss in his components in the railcraft universe. That's exactly the way you should do it.
I really hope soon FTB starts supporting a modpack that is like Direwolf20, but substitutes UE for all the IC2 stuff. I think this would be amazing, and with the notable exception of Xycraft and Redpower2 everything is available under a redistributable license. That's awesome. And we could probably find an open mod to sub in for the critical stuff from Redpower2.
Actually... I could make this modpack and technicpack it... It'd be really easy to do; all those mods are such well-behaved citizens...
@Omicron your post describes exactly why i put RP2 Blutricity in the category i did. It's the most similar to how real life electricity distribution works... Want to transfer power for a long distance? Up the voltage. Want more efficient but short distance power transfer? Low voltage, high amps. Electricity balancing itself along a system where each battery is connected is how real life (rechargeable) battery lines work. After all, if it's a closed system, it will try to find equilibrium, as per the law of thermodynamics. Energy flows from the point of highest density to the point of lowest density. Which is very cool if you're an electric engineer, but less so if you're just trying to play your game.
RP2 Blutricity makes you get more involved into how you're producing your energy. You need to keep track of the voltage in your cables, to make sure if you need or don't need a transformer there (which in RP2 is just sticking a battery there), different cabling for long distance transfer (but not necessarily high energy!).
In IC2 is simple. Are your packets smaller than 1EU? Tin cable. Are your packets smaller than 32 EU? Copper. Are your packets smaller than 128? Gold. Are your packets smaller than 512? Fibre Glass. Are your packets higher than 512? HV Cable.
BAM! Solved. Energy loss only ever starts being a problem with the lowest tier machines, since 99% of the time, you'll be generating your energy inside 40 blocks from your factory area.
In BC2, it's also simple. Cobble makes you lose a lot of power, stone a little bit less, and then gold is the best. Except when you get TE, which gives us Redstone pipes. Very simple, don't generate a lot of headache.
What most players want? They want simplicity! They know their machines need power, they know how to generate the power, they know how to transfer the power. And that's all they want to know, well, most of them anyway. They don't care about why there's energy loss, or why certain cables explode, they think it's just a balance thing. They don't want to have to plan an energy grid, where you set up transformers to turn the low voltage high AMP generated by turbines into HV/LA current used to transfer power, and then another transformer to power their machines. Hell, they don't even want to have their energy generation to occur in a separate location, if possible! That's why most of the energy generation machines are 1 block strcutures.
Personally, i'd like a liiiiittle bit more complexity involved. Not a lot, just a little bit. For starters, make it so that you can't connect machines directly to the engines. Thaat's dumb. Make it so that you always have to have a transformer/battery box between your machines and the engines. It just makes sense. Engines don't always output energy at the same rates, voltage or amperage, they vary, a lot. That's why you need both Capacitors and Transformers, to make that variable current into something stable. There's also the fact that engines usually output in DC and power transfer is AC. So i'd add those blocks, capacitors that turn DC into AC, and transformers, which can manipulate voltage. I'd get rid of multiple types of cabling altogether, except for LV/DC(Direct Current)/HV.
In real life, copper vs gold cabling for energy transfer don't equal to that huge of a difference, based on the costs involved. It's DATA loss that's the real problem with copper vs gold vs fiber cable, not power. The difference is offset by making the transfer more efficient by using extreme high voltage to transfer between the power plant to your house/factory.
A good system i think would be:
Engine -> DC Cable -> Capacitor -> Transformer -> HV Cable -> LV Transformer -> LV Cable -> Machines. I'd also make every engine a Multiblock structure, because, really, small engines output a piddly amount of power, enough to light a house for a couple of hours, at the most. Nothing industrial level. You want an industry, then you need to build an industry. YEAH. Most machines should be Multiblock as well, with advantages to them, like being able to smelt multiple stacks of the same material at once, work faster as they get bigger, etc... I really like Railcraft's approach to this, with the Boilers, Coke Ovens, etc... But, yeah, i think adding complexity to the system is a good thing. You shouldn't be able to uproot a Industry without having a load of material ready already. Not Gregtech level of materials needed, mind you. Again, i think Railcraft has a nice balance going for it. I would be very interested in seeing what CovertJaguar would come up with if he thought up his own energy generation system, instead of using Buildcraft.
RP2 Blutricity makes you get more involved into how you're producing your energy. You need to keep track of the voltage in your cables, to make sure if you need or don't need a transformer there (which in RP2 is just sticking a battery there), different cabling for long distance transfer (but not necessarily high energy!).
In IC2 is simple. Are your packets smaller than 1EU? Tin cable. Are your packets smaller than 32 EU? Copper. Are your packets smaller than 128? Gold. Are your packets smaller than 512? Fibre Glass. Are your packets higher than 512? HV Cable.
BAM! Solved. Energy loss only ever starts being a problem with the lowest tier machines, since 99% of the time, you'll be generating your energy inside 40 blocks from your factory area.
In BC2, it's also simple. Cobble makes you lose a lot of power, stone a little bit less, and then gold is the best. Except when you get TE, which gives us Redstone pipes. Very simple, don't generate a lot of headache.
What most players want? They want simplicity! They know their machines need power, they know how to generate the power, they know how to transfer the power. And that's all they want to know, well, most of them anyway. They don't care about why there's energy loss, or why certain cables explode, they think it's just a balance thing. They don't want to have to plan an energy grid, where you set up transformers to turn the low voltage high AMP generated by turbines into HV/LA current used to transfer power, and then another transformer to power their machines. Hell, they don't even want to have their energy generation to occur in a separate location, if possible! That's why most of the energy generation machines are 1 block strcutures.
Personally, i'd like a liiiiittle bit more complexity involved. Not a lot, just a little bit. For starters, make it so that you can't connect machines directly to the engines. Thaat's dumb. Make it so that you always have to have a transformer/battery box between your machines and the engines. It just makes sense. Engines don't always output energy at the same rates, voltage or amperage, they vary, a lot. That's why you need both Capacitors and Transformers, to make that variable current into something stable. There's also the fact that engines usually output in DC and power transfer is AC. So i'd add those blocks, capacitors that turn DC into AC, and transformers, which can manipulate voltage. I'd get rid of multiple types of cabling altogether, except for LV/DC(Direct Current)/HV.
In real life, copper vs gold cabling for energy transfer don't equal to that huge of a difference, based on the costs involved. It's DATA loss that's the real problem with copper vs gold vs fiber cable, not power. The difference is offset by making the transfer more efficient by using extreme high voltage to transfer between the power plant to your house/factory.
A good system i think would be:
Engine -> DC Cable -> Capacitor -> Transformer -> HV Cable -> LV Transformer -> LV Cable -> Machines. I'd also make every engine a Multiblock structure, because, really, small engines output a piddly amount of power, enough to light a house for a couple of hours, at the most. Nothing industrial level. You want an industry, then you need to build an industry. YEAH. Most machines should be Multiblock as well, with advantages to them, like being able to smelt multiple stacks of the same material at once, work faster as they get bigger, etc... I really like Railcraft's approach to this, with the Boilers, Coke Ovens, etc... But, yeah, i think adding complexity to the system is a good thing. You shouldn't be able to uproot a Industry without having a load of material ready already. Not Gregtech level of materials needed, mind you. Again, i think Railcraft has a nice balance going for it. I would be very interested in seeing what CovertJaguar would come up with if he thought up his own energy generation system, instead of using Buildcraft.
Xynergy looks so cool it wins even if it can't power anything.
I'm going to go with MJ. From an actual gameplay point of view, RL electircity models are way too complex less the whole point of the game is modeling electricity (which most mods arn't).
Then like a good game, the concept is abstarcted. The EU model, while I prefur it, confuses people way to much, as it sounds halfway close to what they expect IRl, but is nothing like it, and usualy takes someone explaining a pscket to get.
MJ is 'these pipes move power from a to b, bigger engines pump more power at once.' You can even see the pumping action. Power flowing through a pipe is REALLY easy to conceptulise. Is a good game machanic.
The pipes randomly exploding is dumb though. Its the kind of machanic which fiustrates people trying to get into it, but has no effect on those who do. so no one gets any enjoyment out of it. Same for machines on too high a voltage. It's not a fun gameplay mechanic except for the kind of people who would actually get more fun out of a realistic model anyway.
I'm going to go with MJ. From an actual gameplay point of view, RL electircity models are way too complex less the whole point of the game is modeling electricity (which most mods arn't).
Then like a good game, the concept is abstarcted. The EU model, while I prefur it, confuses people way to much, as it sounds halfway close to what they expect IRl, but is nothing like it, and usualy takes someone explaining a pscket to get.
MJ is 'these pipes move power from a to b, bigger engines pump more power at once.' You can even see the pumping action. Power flowing through a pipe is REALLY easy to conceptulise. Is a good game machanic.
The pipes randomly exploding is dumb though. Its the kind of machanic which fiustrates people trying to get into it, but has no effect on those who do. so no one gets any enjoyment out of it. Same for machines on too high a voltage. It's not a fun gameplay mechanic except for the kind of people who would actually get more fun out of a realistic model anyway.
Well, to be honest I'd like to have them all since it encourages you to experiment with stuff you wouldn't have normally (power converters notwithstanding). If I had to pick 1 though it would be EU; mainly because it has the highest number of different ways of generating it (nuclear ftw!)
It all depends on how you'd still be able to generate said power.
I like EU because it is easy to set up and runs most of the machines/tools that I like
Solars=Awesome
MJ is good for TE/Buildcraft (and most other mods for that matter) and has a lot more ways to generate, it's just I don't really like investing the time to. Maybe I should on my next map.
I like EU because it is easy to set up and runs most of the machines/tools that I like
Solars=Awesome
MJ is good for TE/Buildcraft (and most other mods for that matter) and has a lot more ways to generate, it's just I don't really like investing the time to. Maybe I should on my next map.
How quickly we forget the world before Thermal Expansion, when it was not just difficult, but actually impossible to move MJ any significant distance.