Sorry for the offtopic discussions here, glad you've solved your issue. If you have access to laser and assembly table, you can make gates that can help you with your issues.
How can I figure out what is sucking the power out of my Redstone Energy Cell?
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Sorry for the offtopic discussions here, glad you've solved your issue. If you have access to laser and assembly table, you can make gates that can help you with your issues.
Who are you and what are you doing in this very important Balance discussion thread !?!?!?
Yes, it jumps from early-game subsistence/survival to mid-game infrastructure building.
See, for me, the different phases of modded minecraft as follows:
1. Early game - mostly similar to vanilla, this is where you mine everything by hand, craft everything by hand, and set up basic, manually managed farms for renewable resources. This is basically the subsistence level of just getting the stuff you need to survive.
2. Mid game - this is where you start setting up automated systems. Automated mining with a quarry, automated farming with harvesters or Steve's carts. Constantly powered engines and generators that you don't have to walk over to put fuel into. This is where you have a surplus of the basic resources like iron, gold and diamonds, but you are still building the infrastructure to extend that to more rare items like iridium, uranium, wither skeleton skulls, nether stars, etc.
3. End game - all the infrastructure and automation is set up and it's time to work on frivolous or extravagant luxury projects. By this point I should have transitioned away from quarries (and their unfortunate need for manual interaction) to a fully automated system.
It doesn't make sense then to complain that a quarry or EE3 lets you skip the "mid-game" when the mid-game is what happens after you get a quarry and start making more automated infrastructure.
You said " It was a great mod with useful utilities that could be extremely helpful and entirely balanced for people who are mature enough to moderate their own decisions and behavior,"
I think there are two types of players, apparently. You want to set your own limits, others like me want the game to set limits... so I can push them. It's like a race car on a track. i want the track to be well defined, and my enjoyment is trying to race my car as close to the limits of the track as possible. I want to set up my car to try and get through the curves as quickly and efficiently as possible... all within the guidelines that are set that are beyond my control, and that my fellow racers have to follow too.
You don't want to race, which is fine. You enjoy driving the car around and finding fun things to do inside the track, and don't like the boundaries. Both are fine. But don't call the race drivers immature, they just enjoy different things than you do. They felt EE3 ruined things, broke the boundaries, like Richard Petty with a hemi engine in the 1970s. Did you know he would beat the rest of the pack by LAPS, because he had a hemi style engine, while the rest used wedge style?
At that point there are two options. People can say they enjoy the cars they have, and watch Petty run laps beyond them... which is fine! If you play SSP then there is no Richard Petty running laps around you. For me, even if I want to just enjoy the scenery, I have a Petty who is taunting me as he laps me over and over. The testosterone flares up! NAY! I WILL ALSO USE SUPERIOR TECHOLOGY! I'm weak. I know.
So the second option is to give in, and use the hemi engine (EE2) and run with the big dogs. Even today you get people noting how they made X diamonds a minute, using EE2. Is it immature? I don't think so, I think some of us just like PUSHING boundaries, instead of figuring out how to make our own. While i use fermenters and stills right now in my 29 max sized boiler biofuel base that maxed out a gregtech matter fab (this is a subtle joke, can you feel the testosterone that makes me brag about that accomplishment there?
) I can't force myself to use an IC2 miner, instead of turtles or quarries. Although i started using turtles thinking they would be a fun mid game alternative to a quarry. Boy was i wrong! I...felt the testosterone flow! And LO! From the heavens of Computercraft.info I did find scripts of the gods! Carving out only every third level, but gathering all the ores, the efficiency of turtles was increased! Using blaze rods from minium stone exploits, I quickly setup ender chests and a set of 4 turtles, and the God of Ore did come down from his lofty perch to bestow great gobs of metals upon me! Faster than a quarry I dug, and using less resources to fuel them. And life was good. Cherubs sang and dryads ran through the woods, playing their harps while the Gods of Ores rained their metallic goodness down upon my world. Well as you can see, for people like me, its hard not to push things, for some reason. You call it immaturity, I call it Evolution. Our entire society is built upon humans wanting to do things faster and more efficiently. I don't think wanting a game to set limits so that we can PUSH those limits is really all that wrong. I'd pay for it!
To whoever reads this: if you did not smile or chuckle at this at all, please tell me, as I need to know that I have zero sense of humor, and I can let my wife know that she has been right all these years.
Yes. BC3 was much more like IC2, but with an "implementation mistake" that made conductive pipes explode all the time. (I won't call it a bug, because cpw saw the consequences and refused to change it back) Apart from that, there's nothing to discuss about BC3 vs IC2 here.
It's an ongoing cost for having pipes hooked up.
"I'll sell you my car for $2000 + $20/month after that." The transaction is not done. The goods are bought and will never finish being paid for. The justification in the additional ongoing cost is that it's part of the cost the mod authors have decided on.
A ridiculous thing to append a cost to. Next up, let's make it so wearing armor causes damage with every step taken.
As above, "because that's what I decided" is a lame reason. The devs can do better. Someone who tried to sell a car for $2k + $20/month would be sitting on that car for an awfully long time. I'd feel very comfortable asserting that prior to TE, the number of people who sought ways to bypass the exploding engine/lossy pipe mechanics of BC were greater than the ones who bought into it. The mechanic can't be that great if people go out of their way to avoid it. I don't even remember what the block was called in 1.2.5 Tekkit but converting EU to MJ and sending it to your quarry via energy teleport pipe was such a vastly superior option to any sort of on-site engine bomb. BC might have just as well folded the entire energy component of their mod and made BC an IC2 add-on. Hardly anyone would have noticed.
No different to appending a cost to machines...
"It's not fun" is a completely valid reason against constant power drains that I agree with.
However, it does not support your previous point that "getting to use the machine" is not a reward.
It does. I've explained this. I've already paid for the machine when I consumed the materials to make it. I've paid for the usage of the machine when I provided it with the energy it needed to function, which was provided by machines that I already paid for when I consumed the materials to make them, and the energy was paid for by the fuel required to produce it. I've paid for the output of the machine by providing it with the raw materials that produce that output. Now I've got the machine, I've got the output, it's too late to tell me that power drain after the fact is part of the cost of that process, because the power drain doesn't come as a part of producing that outcome. You can't tell me that my reward for enduring the energy drain is being able to use the machine, because the energy drain comes after I've used it. I've already made it. It's mine.
Most mod devs know this and know better than to use penalties to motivate players instead of incentives. Appending additional power drain on the machines is a cost above and beyond the cost of having and powering the machine through normal use. It's not even a cost for transmitting the power, because you still incur that idle power drain if you have an engine connected directly to it that wants to produce 4k MJ for an operation that only required 3k. Instead of sitting in the buffer of the machine or the engine, piss it away. Because that's good design.
So first, let's just grasp the distinction of cost before and after reward. Cost after reward is not part of the reward. It's additional cost after the fact and if it carries no additional reward, it doesn't belong. Idle power drain is a cost after the fact. You've already paid for the machine. You've paid for the infrastructure. You've paid for the fuel. Why then does it need an additional cost if not to provide needed incentive for players to use the even more costly and poorly implemented assembly table/gate system to control engines and power flow? "Rather than fix an awful system, let's just drive people to use it with an even worse system."
Lack of imagination. Laziness. More of the "make it suck to make it better" mentality. And as long as we let the 11 yr olds buoy the sagging egos of mod devs because "lololol pew pew lazorz!!" we're going to be stuck with this crap.,
[citation needed]
And why is it if someone asks for balance, the answer from people like you is that "mod devs can do what they want" and "they don't care if you like their mod"
But now the tone here is that mod devs better take note of how MFR does it OR ELSE people will lose interest.
Because nobody is actually demanding that the BC mods change buildcraft. We're simply pointing out that it's a bad design decision and we'll use other mods that fit the way we enjoy playing the game better.
Yes and my point is that when people complain about OP mods it seems to not be ok to point out its a bad design decision. And we will use other mods that fit the way we enjoy playing the game better. OR use configs to adjust the mid. Enigmius declared configs to be Bad though so I don't know what the answer is.
It's like this. Enigmius (once you get past his innate irascibility) isn't against configs because he wants to enforce a style of play on others. He's stated before that he's all for people playing with mods however they personally happen to enjoy playing them. What he's against is using text-based configuration files hidden inside hard to find game data folders as a method of accomplishing this.
Personally, I don't agree with him on that score. What I AM against though is making the more restrictive config decision the default one. Because changing configs is somewhat difficult so you often end up with a situation where people are forced to play with a set of configs that isn't quite what they want, but it's too difficult to synchronize the change across all players on the server. Leaving the less restrictive choice as default is better because anyone who wants to play in a more restrictive fashion can simply choose to do so, even if the config is set to allow the freer version. At that point it's simply a question (as enigmius said earlier) of maturity and discipline in deciding to hew to your chosen path despite the available alternatives.
Because only two mods don't really follow those rules: IndustrialCraft and BuildCraft. These aren't even normal mods anymore, they're practically bases for APIs (this is especially true with BC).
You need proof on how many people don't like constant power drain? Look at how many people use Buildcraft as "intended" (lol), with no energy storage. Or to be even more precise, look at how many people go out of their way to completely bypass power drain. Because there aren't any splitter energy pipes/gates (inb4 too close to IC2), you cannot efficiently stop constant energy drain.
A splitter pipe or gate function would, of course, justify the mechanic to a large extent. You could hook up a gate to emit a redstone signal (or just have the blocking feature built-in with gates, preferably) whenever there's items in the inventory of a machine.
Actually, with some machines, there is a "Has/Doesn't Have Work" toggle for gates. Don't know the list off the top of my head. Just my 2 Copper Nuggets.
Well, that's good. I GUESS TiC Drawbridges could work, though I've had bugs in the past. Plus that's a completely non-BC machine fixing BC's problem. Not ideal, but I'll try it and see if it works.
Still requires a stupid amount of gates and doesn't work with lasers, but it's something to think about.
Still requires a stupid amount of gates and doesn't work with lasers, but it's something to think about.
Sorry, but if the "kidz" of today don't know basic computer operation of finding and editing text files to configure a modded game to work, then they shouldn't be playing a modded game. It's pure laziness and poor education. Two major factors in the current generation. They just want everything handed to them on a plate without working for it.
Who here remembers having to edit your autoexec.bat file and memory settings via memcheck to make games run and configure your IRQ settings to get sound and graphics to work? And before that waiting 30 minutes+ for a game to load from a tape drive, for it to crash at the last minute.
The original thing you said was:
You were trying to explain why using a machine was not a reward. If it's not a reward, it should have no cost, period, not even a crafting recipe. Re-reading it, you were not answering my question, you were explaining why using the machine is not a reward which deserves the cost of a constant power draw.
A small amount of renewable power is part of the infrastructure.
I've already explained how renewable generators convert an ongoing cost after the reward into a one-time cost before the reward. If you had to keep going hand-mining to collect coal to power your rolling machine, it would be an on-going cost. If you need to make a tree farm and boiler for every 2000 rolling machines, it's converted to a setup cost - which also means it's now a cost before the reward.
Also, just because a cost is "after the reward" doesn't mean it's not an acceptable cost. Consider: After I make a rolling machine and use it, it takes up space. Every time I want to build something near it I pay the cost of not being able to build where the rolling machine is.
Instead of thinking of it as a cost, why not think of it as a reward?
Instead of "A rolling machine takes no power, unless you can't afford an assembly table", why not "A rolling machine takes 0.05 MJ/t, but if you have an assembly table and some time, you can make it take no power"?
It seems like you are counting the cost of the gates as part of the cost of the rolling machine - but you don't have to use gates. Instead, you could use 1/2000th of a boiler and tree farm. Either way, it's not an ongoing cost.
Is this only a problem because it's a nerf? If Buildcraft had started off with machines taking constant power, would anybody be complaining?
Can you imagine playing Minecraft and holding onto every single block of cobblestone you ever make?
Of course not. In Minecraft (especially vanilla, since you're managing storage yourself) you only keep a few stacks of cobblestone around. If you need more for a task you go and mine it just before you need it. You don't keep whole rooms full of cobblestone just in case you want to build a big stone tower.
(The exception is AE, since then you can store all the cobblestone you'll ever get in just one block)
Excessive buffers just encourage hoarding, which doesn't actually help you. Direwolf's big liquid tanks - how often have they ever been not completely full? A tank that's always full is just a waste of a resources - as if you had a tank sitting in your machine room, not connected to anything, but full of liquid anyway.
In other words, you attempted to drag the discussion away from "a reward for the constant power draw", and he didn't notice that you were trying to change the subject. Hardly a fair criticism of him.
Before AE I used to keep a few extradimensional barrels of cobble around, and I'd occasionally carry one over to a Filler to fill huge holes. It was much easier with RedPower, but it's still a viable option. I didn't keep every single block, of course, but probably around 80%.
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