If "takes more time = harder" to you there is no point whatsoever in having this discussion because our views are too far apart.
Hosting a Ultimate FTB server and need a hand with the Gregtech config
- Thread starter hillbillyassasn
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If "takes more time = harder" to you there is no point whatsoever in having this discussion because our views are too far apart.
Just to confirm, you understand that "harder" does not need to always be more enjoyable, or even as enjoyable, right? If so, then yes, your point of view is extremely askew from my own, and any further discussion is a waste of both of our time.
If it's not enjoyable and takes more time it's still only tedious, not hard. Hard means difficulty, doing something 8 times instead of 1 doesn't increase difficulty. Or atleast I'm assuming you're smart enough to more or less figured out how to do something after doing it once.
If you think more time = difficult you have your causality reversed in your 'equation'. Stuff that's difficult tends to take more time because you have to learn how to do it. Afterwards it takes you less time because you know know how to do it. But that doesn't mean the time requirement itself dictates difficulty, the difficulty is the cause, not the result. So just like all cows are animals but not all animals are cows, something can take a lot of time because it's difficult but that does not mean it's difficult because it costs time.
Discarding your obvious rudeness, again, if that is the case, why are you playing survival? Creative mode removes any possible difficulty in regards to obtaining materials. You can create each thing yourself the first time, and then spawn in a full barrel's worth of them, or create them via creative whenever you want. Your logic demands that the only difficult part is the first time you create something, so removing all other parts should not cause any change in the difficulty of the game. Disagreement with that point proves that you agree that time is a requirement to difficulty, and as such by adding more time to the process, you have increased the difficulty.
As I'm sure we both know, though, you are wrong in that regard as being forced to make something more than once is difficult. A good example would be Terraria versus MineCraft in regards to the way tools are considered. In Terraria, when you create a tool (a wooden long sword, for example), that tool will exist without ever being damaged or lost (unless you misplace it, or destroy it yourself). You only have to create one of each tool/weapon/armor once (per player, of course), which seems to be a system ideal to your desire of difficulty. It removes the grind and tedium involved with getting materials for things designed to get you more materials, right? Is this truly your ideal system, or is time a requirement of difficulty?
And again: Difficulty is "the state of being difficult", difficult is "Needing much effort or skill to accomplish, deal with, or understand." or "Characterized by or causing hardships or problems.". Skill often requires time to perfect, although at a high enough level time should not be an attribute of skill requirements. Effort, though, will often be a requirement that demands time. Hardship and problems can easily be "time sinks", which make the game "very" difficult, as per what hillbillyassasn wanted. While not all difficult things cost gross amounts of time, there isn't going to be anything difficult that costs no time, and very very few things that will cost minimal time without maximal skill/resources.
I'm sorry but what? I said I'm assuming you are an intelligent person that doesn't need countless iterations to learn something as trivial as some crafting recipies. How's that rude?
Anyway, I'm going to stop this discussion as it's not going anywhere obviously. We seem to differ too much concerning our definitions of what's difficult and what's tedious.
The disagreement is in how we define "difficult", not "tedious", or at least not for the most part. I view "tedious" to mean "repeating something past the point of enjoyment". It has nothing, at all, though, to do with something's difficulty in the regard you appear to want to use it for as much. But yes, as we don't appear to be able to agree upon the meaning of "difficult", it's best to "agree to disagree", as it is said. Best of luck to you!
Sure, I'd compare it to an hour long commute versus a 10 minute commute. Is it "harder" to spend an hour doing the exact same thing that you'd otherwise do for 10 minutes? No. The required actions to commute are the same; it's just accelerating and stopping and changing lanes and being patient in either case.
If I wanted to increase the difficulty of my 10 minute commute, what I would do is something like do it blindfolded, or do it in reverse, or do it in a race car, or do it while texting the whole way (not really, that would stupid lol). Any of those things would be more challenging than just making my commute longer. Or, I could vary my route or optimize my mileage. I wouldn't do the same limited set of actions for a longer period of time and call it more difficult.
I just dont personally equate repetition or time to completion, with difficulty. The more practiced you become at something the easier it becomes to do the same thing. Something like mining for hours or days on end is incredibly boring, not hard.
I'd would also compare it to a work day in an office. If I sit at my desk and accomplish the same amount of work in 10 hours that I could do in 5 hours, is that harder? No. It's longer, but you're still doing the same amount either way so it's not more difficult.
Its cool if you like Gregtech. I dont care. I dont even care about having to remove it from my mod pack in order to make the game enjoyable for me. It just doesn't add enough interesting stuff to make it worthwhile for how I like to play. I like that FTB and Minecraft gives both of us, with different ideas of what constitutes difficulty, a way to enjoy ourselves while playing the same game differently and I'm glad that you get to play in a way you enjoy.
Difficulty is not merely skill. Difficulty includes all attributes to complete a task, such as skill, time required, resources required, and the like.
Hard is defined, in context, as "With a great deal of effort." Effort can be attributed to skill, time, resources, or any of the other variables you want to define. It takes a great deal of effort to drive ten minutes blindfolded, as well as a great deal of effort to drive for an hour. They may not be equal (blindfolded driving is surely harder), but driving for ten minutes versus an hour is not the same amount of effort. You may not recognize the additional effort as it is a fairly small expense, but it is still an expense.
If the choice is between driving ten minutes straight, or driving for one minute, and then having to refuel, you see that the obvious choice is the latter is going to require more effort even if you only drive for the same amount of time (roughly) discounting the extra time spent refueling.
If it takes you twice as long to do the same amount of work, yes, it is "harder" as you are putting in twice the effort. In your example, that may just be the effort to pay attention to whatever job you are doing, or properly retaining your sitting position, or any number of other attributes that go into your time spent not directly working (assuming that you have some sort of work that can have such a massive variable amount of time consumed, of course).
And again, I do NOT advocate enjoying tedious gameplay. hillbillyassasn wanted a "very difficult" config change for GregTech. Personally, I find the amount of grind in GregTech to be fairly suitable to what I'm willing to do before I decide it isn't worth my time. And if you do NOT want to discuss GregTech, then why are you even in this thread? It says right in the title that it is a thread about GregTech configs.
If you want to discuss ways to make GregTech more difficult via the GregTech configs, please, feel free to reply.
No, its the same amount of effort. The only change is time. The person would work at half speed for twice as long, which doesn't make anything harder, just longer.
You overlooked my first post where I made just such a recommendation (about removing the ability to substitute rubies and sapphires for diamonds in the crystals). Obviously I dont mind discussing Gregtech, even though my post that you originally quoted was a comment about time and difficulty, not GT. Although, this is still more of a discussion about what makes something hard, whether its outside of or within GT, isn't it? It's not like I'm saying GT is easy. What I'm saying is that it's so slow that it isn't fun for me.
I put the last paragraph in my previous post because I'm trying to disagree in a civil way without making an enemy. I've found the posts you've made about other topics to be helpful and informative as I've been learning to play FTB.
While it might not be tedious for you, many people--myself included--would consider the requirements of GT to be the epitome of tedium. (Tedious: Too long, slow, or dull: tiresome or monotonous). If someone likes it and is trying to come up with ways to make it even harder I'll be happy to put in my 2 cents without further increasing that tedium.
Time is effort. I am not sure if there is anywhere else to go with this, if we cannot agree that time is effort.
I did not, as I thought that was a fairly good suggestion and left it for hillbillyassasn to review.
Yes, it is. It is NOT about making it harder in a specifically fun way, because you aren't likely going to find many, if any, changes to do that. Although in context to this thread, we're discussing GregTech, but the concept can be moved over to more or less anything.
I agree entirely! Trying to play with a stack size limit of four/eight would be hellishly bothersome because of the difficulty in doing the simplest of things. Having to build a much more massive storage system that early in the game would prioritize barrels, and even then that'd end up being a fairly massive investment in barrels just to deal with storage.
Carrying stuff whilst mining would mean getting string to make canvas bags would be very important (and backpacks, too, if only to take advantage of the auto-loading aspect of them). Getting ender chests and pouches would be around when the difficulty in stack size is cut back down to size (setting up a remote sorting system input for mining, etc), although it'd still be fairly bothersome.
Actually, a stack size limit of one might be interesting to try as well. Perhaps a TerraFirmaCraft-level thing.
I hold no grudges in almost all regards, so please feel free to openly disagree in whatever way you'd like. I'd just like to make sure that we remember that this thread is talking about GregTech config changes for difficulty.
It's tedious at points for me, which increases the difficulty and often makes it more fun (watching my UU matter stock fill up was fun the first few times before I started to make enough UU matter quickly enough that it no longer was interesting).
Removing the usage of rubies and sapphires will increase the tedium (more mining/quarrying/etc to get more diamonds to make things that require lapcrystals and energy crystals).
One way to make Gregtech harder is to just remove railcraft and leave forestry bronze nerfed. Railcraft provides a cheap out on stage 1 of gregtech, the blast furnace, giving you access to important metals a lot earlier with much less aggressive stuff. Remove RP2, for example, and require electric automation. Other ways to make it harder include removing even more mods! 
For example, remove Ender Storage! Remove TE or disable tesseracts!
GT's design is such that early game is hard, late game lets you experience progressive resource multiplication. To that end, it makes things cheaper over time and "hard mode" is only ever experienced early on.
For example, remove Ender Storage! Remove TE or disable tesseracts! GT's design is such that early game is hard, late game lets you experience progressive resource multiplication. To that end, it makes things cheaper over time and "hard mode" is only ever experienced early on.
Indeed. I don't think there is a way to really do otherwise without excess tedium though, because as you get deeper into a world, you end up having so much in the way resources that the only way to really make things more difficult is to force you to need to sink time/resources into something.
No one has forced it upon you to read this thread (although if someone IS forcing you to read this thread, blink three times quickly, and then once slowly, and we'll send help).This thread is become tedious to read, and I find it more difficult to follow with interest.
For the way I play, those items are mid-game, where I already have automatic mining going. So rather than making it more tedious it would be more a matter of deciding what I want to spend my limited diamonds on until more arrive in the ender chest. The biggest reason I came to FTB was for automatic mining. I got sick of mining by hand in vanilla. So I leverage automatic mining systems to the hilt. If I wanted to do it by hand I'd just keep playing vanilla.
I'm afraid we do disagree fundamentally. Time is not effort. Effort is effort. That's why I dont think, in real life, that people who are with a company for 20 years should automatically be promoted over younger people who work harder or more efficiently. If time is effort then the 20 years that one person spent sitting at desks giving 1/4 effort is more valuable than the contribution of someone who's spent 10 years and given full effort, even if the 10 year employee produced twice as many widgets.[DOUBLEPOST=1363032857][/DOUBLEPOST]
What if the early game was untouched, but the mid and end game items were just incredibly expensive and required many more resources than they do now?
Personally, I think gregtech should be a stand alone mod like terrariacraft. That way it would be able to dictate everything and not have to even mess around with other mods settings and configs. It would be easier for GT to manage.
That is the saddest thing I've read all day. That's the only reason?
P.S., if you have caving and demand 100% automining you will hate applied energistics. You are probably already irritated at FTB's ore distribution system.
Do you press down on your mouse more firmly? Do you make a little Kiai yell each time? I'm not sure how you define "effort" here. Certainly time is one aspect of effort. How can you even empirically measure effort without time?
Cool non-sequitur, bro. Way to try to straw man your opponent into a position related to ageism. Because how things are organized in modded minecraft tech progression is totally, extra-super straight-line related to age related political and logistic issues.
1. yeah I dont use applied energistics. it doesn't look interesting. i shut off the mod spotlight 1/2 way through in fact. should that somehow make me inferior? Because I missed that memo.
2. I dont even know what you're talking about here.
3. Huh? I'm pointing out a case where time is not equal to effort.
2. I dont even know what you're talking about here.
3. Huh? I'm pointing out a case where time is not equal to effort.
All you need to do to increase your stockpile of diamonds beyond easy usability is to quarry more (or IC2 miner, or etc etc), which just requires the investment of time.
That is a circular definition. Can you try and define "effort" without referencing itself directly? I'll give my definition:
I'd say, in context, effort is an expense of something. An example would be the effort required to get your first diamond is (in pickaxes), one wooden pickaxe, a bunch of stone pickaxes, at least one iron pickaxe. In time, it is however long it takes you to go from your start until you find your first diamond ore cluster. The effort of skill (which is a catalyst) to finding diamond (such as knowing to mine around 12y to avoid lava lakes as well as to get the best diamond saturation, or knowing that branch mining is the best ways sans caving, etc) is another aspect of the total effort required for the action.
That is actually an attribute to the function of human temporal conditioning, and to a smaller part as a reward to loyalty. In regards, though, the amount of effort (time) that the person gave to the company is, in fact, worth something. It's also subjective, so it is not possible to say that it is "more valuable" or "less valuable" objectively. Your opinion is that it is less valuable. It is often people's opinion that it is more valuable. My opinion is that it is an extremely undefined matter, which often requires adjustment for other variables.
And if you are in a situation where you are being overlooked for a promotion merely because of a seniority structure, and you aren't looking to invest the effort it'd take to end up being able to use that system to your advantage, you should find a new system that fits your goals. I've done as much before.
You pointed out a situation that does not appear to deal with an equal transformation of time and efficiency/willingness to work hard, and yet you underlined that the senior person had actually attributed twice the amount of product as the junior person. Normally though, management does not care about that. They care about people that they have a good understanding of, which means "loyal" people.
Loyalty is an extremely simple reward system that human beings still utilize fairly fully, and one that we won't likely see removed in full for a while (come Singularity, hopefully).
To make GregTech harder:
Disable allowing to use several buildcraft chips in place of IC2 circuits
Disable allowing machine blocks and sturdy casings in place of machine blocks
Disable the recipes giving two circuits / advanced circuits when you use Electrum instead of Redstone
Disable the recipe allowing MFE's to be created with Lithium instead of energy crystals
Disable any of the recipes allowing the centrifuge or industrial electrolyzer to generate basic necessities from easily farmable products. Notably, centrifuging lava, electrolyzing obsidian and clay dust.
All of these activities are added by GregTech and make the game easier.
Disable allowing to use several buildcraft chips in place of IC2 circuits
Disable allowing machine blocks and sturdy casings in place of machine blocks
Disable the recipes giving two circuits / advanced circuits when you use Electrum instead of Redstone
Disable the recipe allowing MFE's to be created with Lithium instead of energy crystals
Disable any of the recipes allowing the centrifuge or industrial electrolyzer to generate basic necessities from easily farmable products. Notably, centrifuging lava, electrolyzing obsidian and clay dust.
All of these activities are added by GregTech and make the game easier.
Effort:
Noun
A vigorous or determined attempt.
The result of an attempt.
(Note that Webster doesn't list "time")
The illustration wasn't about me, but it is something I've run into before at other companies and in the military. I left those places and never looked back, since time is not a substitute for effort or productivity.
All right guys, you've got your viewpoints. That's cool. I disagree with them but you can think whatever you want. I've got to run. I've wasted enough time and need to put in some effort at work now. Thanks for the thought provoking discussion.
Noun
A vigorous or determined attempt.
The result of an attempt.
(Note that Webster doesn't list "time")
So...was time the effort that you put in? Or, did you do something to make yourself more marketable or qualified? If you did anything besides wait for time to pass you're proving my point.
The illustration wasn't about me, but it is something I've run into before at other companies and in the military. I left those places and never looked back, since time is not a substitute for effort or productivity.
All right guys, you've got your viewpoints. That's cool. I disagree with them but you can think whatever you want. I've got to run. I've wasted enough time and need to put in some effort at work now. Thanks for the thought provoking discussion.
We're dealing with energy, and health here, as well as physical strength. The usage of "effort", again, makes this circular (A == B because B == A).
For the record: Vigor
This word continued the circular reference, as well as deals with physical aspects of action (physical strength, good health, etc).
Nothing about that deals with either time, or non-time directly. It could be argued to deal with time in that you stick with your choice of trying to make a fusion reactor even though it's crazy talk. It could be argued that the resolution displayed is merely a secondary trait, and has nothing to do with time. Both are subjective, and as such pointless to this discussion.
Useless to this discussion because it does not deal with the characteristics of "effort".
The result of "an act of trying to achieve something" is, again, not useful for us because it does not deal with what effort actually is, as such.
Note that it also does not list skill, resources, or anything else in that regard. I did not touch on defining "effort" because there isn't really anything useful defined for it. That means we're either using the wrong word, or we aren't finding the right usages of it.
The specifics are that I worked at Costco, which has an extremely strict promotion policy. I worked harder than most of the people above me, and was kept within the standard policy of promotions. I thought, though, that if I only proved that I was willing to work hard, I might get promoted early. There isn't anything you can do in a system that defines yourself as being "more likely to be promoted" by the amount of time you spend there, except spend more time. Notice the word "spend". Time is a currency.
If, instead, I had known what I know now, and for some moronic reason decided I wanted to stick at a job that pays a max. of 18$ an hour (well lower than what I make now when calculated out), I would have just applied the smallest amount of effort until I was obtaining the rewards of my investment of time into the system.
Thankfully, though, I understood that time is an extremely valuable thing (you only get so much time before you are out) and made a logical choice to change the situation.
I agree, time is far too valuable to be useful to consider it on the same level as productivity, which can easily be simulated and forced as required. It's best to stick with people that value time as you do.
No worries, and I am glad that we have reached an agreement in our disagreement. Good luck!