Holy hand grenades massively OP

  • The FTB Forum is now read-only, and is here as an archive. To participate in our community discussions, please join our Discord! https://ftb.team/discord

vasouv

New Member
Jul 29, 2019
180
0
0
Well MFFS is OP then 'cause you can restrict the Wither in the forcefield, like Direwolf did, that Gravi chest thing is OP too cause you hardly take any damage, also the mining laser since it can be used effectively as a bloody gun...

So yeah, if you think something is unbalanced either don't use it or disable it or ban it on your server.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Hoff

Ako_the_Builder

New Member
Jul 29, 2019
789
0
0
Having overpowered weapons with easy access to them isn't a part of any other sandbox game, including any of the ones you named. There isn't a holy iron battle-axe of the gods +500dmg that you can pick up in the beginning of Skyrim with people telling you "don't use it if you don't like it." Yet you're using sandbox as an excuse to justify having unbalanced mods together.

Minecraft is a sandbox game by nature, so I don't get how you're trying to differentiate Minecraft-Sandbox from FTB-Ultimate-Sandbox

I learnt how to make and upgrade the best armour in skyrim, using alchemy and stuff and made myself virtually omnipotent and ruined the game for myself as nothing could touch me, sandbox.
 

Hoff

Tech Support
Oct 30, 2012
2,901
1,502
218
Let's make this clear:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandbox_game


"In a true "sandbox", the player has tools to modify the world themselves and create how they play.Generally open world games still enforce some restrictions in the game environment, either due to absolute technical limitations or in-game limitations (such as locked areas) imposed by a game's linearity."

Minecraft is a sandbox not an open world game. The progression, the limitations, the rules, everything is chosen by you. This applies to both survival and creative.
 

Skyqula

New Member
Jul 29, 2019
568
-1
0
IMO, the whole mod seems kinda unbalanced to me. I like alot of the items in a general way. But there is so much that is just to strong or to cheap that makes me disable and forget about it. If for example the gun was out and the other items where dungeon/strongheld/fortress/mineshaft loot it would be The coolest mod ever though.

There isn't a holy iron battle-axe of the gods +500dmg that you can pick up in the beginning of Skyrim with people telling you "don't use it if you don't like it."

Actually there was... In the form of proffesions ==> buying certain items (iron ore, petty soulshard), leveling proffessions, selling for profit, reapeat till you had the best possible armor and weapons that allowed you to 1hit kill everything without taking damage.... But nice try :)
 

KirinDave

New Member
Jul 29, 2019
3,086
0
0
Having overpowered weapons with easy access to them isn't a part of any other sandbox game, including any of the ones you named. There isn't a holy iron battle-axe of the gods +500dmg that you can pick up in the beginning of Skyrim with people telling you "don't use it if you don't like it." Yet you're using sandbox as an excuse to justify having unbalanced mods together.

First of all, it is not a mod's job to be "balanced" in most cases. A mod cannot be unbalanced or overpowering in the absolute sense. They all torque and break vanilla and that's the only universal reference point.

So your argument is, "Xeno's Reliquary is unbalanced in this pack (DW20/Ultimate) because the holy hand grenade is super strong!"

I ask you, 'Who cares about strong weapons?" Already many of our mods trivialize the wither battle. Most everyone already has nano suits, sabers, vanilla enchants, forcefields, deep holes, and other tools that basically make the wither a simple fight. The challenging of fighting the wither is not really the actual fight with the wither, it's making those wither skulls farmable. And the hand grenade is much less useful versus the only other "boss" of the game, the Ender Dragon. Already with vanilla mechanics I could one shot every other monster in the game. Tinker's Construct is coming into our packs, and that'll make it even worse. Ars Magica is coming into the DW20 pack, and you will not believe how strong that can make you. A well-decked high-level mage can fight someone in a gravity suit to a standstill (and their infrastructure has a UU-matter equivalent).

So yay. The hand grenade is very strong against a boss who's chief difficulty has always been, "Can you spawn him in?"

I heard a similar set of complaints from another user here, Vermillon, and as far as I can tell people have very weird ideas of the balance that exists in our current packs. The handgun: very good. But not insane. The potions: good, but much more expensive than vanilla potions for the same effects. The Alchemy system? Doesn't really change the game unless something comes along to change that balance. Now, when you combine any two Alchemy/Exchange systems and they aren't on the same page, it creates infinite resource loops. Right now EE3+XR means infinite resources (particularly if you have Xycraft fabricators to accelerate the process to tick level speed). But again, who cares?

Infinite resources? Oh no. It's the end of the world! It's not like frame machines didn't already trivialize all of that. It's not like computercraft, ender tanks, and quarries couldn't be combined to give infinite resources. It's not like Ars Magica can't make infinite resources. Go play with MineChem and freak out at what you can do.

The only real rule of game and pack balance should be, "Does this totally obsolete every other option available?" If it does, then it shouldn't be in that pack (and possibly not in that mod). An example of an overpowered mechanic: Forestry's Bronze creation. Everyone else makes it harder to make bronze, so it's sensible to turn off the cheap bronze creation because no one will ever use Greg's bronze or Tinker's Construct's bronze methods; they're just much more time consuming.

tl;dr: XR's hand grenade is more balanced than Forestry's Bronze. What will you do now, internet?
 

vasouv

New Member
Jul 29, 2019
180
0
0
And let's not forget the factor "convenience" here... There are many players out there that aren't nearly as experienced in FTB or Minecraft, they "need" stuff to kill bosses quickly and effectively. It's easier to disable a mod from the pack than installing it later and possibly having to deal with id conflicts. In the first case everyone's happy, in the second newbies are hammered due to conflicts or whatever. The second case doesn't sound fair to me.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Hoff and KirinDave

KirinDave

New Member
Jul 29, 2019
3,086
0
0
And let's not forget the factor "convenience" here... There are many players out there that aren't nearly as experienced in FTB or Minecraft, they "need" stuff to kill bosses quickly and effectively. It's easier to disable a mod from the pack than installing it later and possibly having to deal with id conflicts. In the first case everyone's happy, in the second newbies are hammered due to conflicts or whatever. The second case doesn't sound fair to me.

Yeah. There is always that "then do not use it" retort. I felt this way about EE2.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Hoff

RussPaterno

New Member
Jul 29, 2019
1
0
0
I feel like the point of this was a bit mislead. The Hand Grenade wouldn't necessarily make it 'overpowered' based on its power alone. It would have to be 'overpowered' in relation to something else. OP is the correlation between what it requires to make it and how effective it is, which is what Tsun did try to mention. OP doesn't just mean strong, but what it does mean is that the effectiveness you get in return is incredibly larger than what you must put in.

Another point on the sort of sandbox vs open world debate. I'd rather not get in to the definitions of either, but since the whole point of Minecraft and typically the points of the mods are to gather resources, and in the case of the mods different resources in different ways, and then using them to upgrade, a giant leap in progression does leave quite a big impression. If you play to collect, build and upgrade then the balance in progression does sort of matter. As opposed to creative where you can just spawn in what you want. In the case of Creative how powerful the grenade is and what is required to craft it does become irrelevant. However in the fact of SMP the ratio of ingredients to effectiveness does matter, at least in my opinion.

Obviously for him personally the easiest solution is to remove it himself, but I fail to see how you can be against rather constructive criticism. He approached it in a pretty mature way and didn't just cry that it's OP. As an honest suggestion I don't see why it'd hurt for the FTB to maybe make the grenades a bit harder to craft, since the whole point is for them to be powerful. I personally feel that the sake of balance on servers would overrule the few who just say leave it, but it isn't my decision. I'd like to see it fixed, and those who don't could just as easily tweak it themselves, as they've already suggested. ;)
 

KirinDave

New Member
Jul 29, 2019
3,086
0
0
I feel like the point of this was a bit mislead. The Hand Grenade wouldn't necessarily make it 'overpowered' based on its power alone. It would have to be 'overpowered' in relation to something else. OP is the correlation between what it requires to make it and how effective it is, which is what Tsun did try to mention. OP doesn't just mean strong, but what it does mean is that the effectiveness you get in return is incredibly larger than what you must put in.

I'm still not sure how it is somehow easier to make than a vanilla diamond sword, which can be extremely strong and used many times and requires a mere 4 diamonds. Even by EE3 standards, the Diamond Sword is cheaper.
 

ShneekeyTheLost

Too Much Free Time
Dec 8, 2012
3,728
3,004
333
Lost as always
Having overpowered weapons with easy access to them isn't a part of any other sandbox game, including any of the ones you named. There isn't a holy iron battle-axe of the gods +500dmg that you can pick up in the beginning of Skyrim with people telling you "don't use it if you don't like it." Yet you're using sandbox as an excuse to justify having unbalanced mods together.

Sure there is! Well, in Morrowind, anyways. It's called Alchemy and Enchanting. Abuse the first to abuse the second. You can get 100% Chameleon (sneak suit), 100% Sanctuary (god mode), or 50% Magic Absorb (combines with Atronach symbol for 100% so you're not only immune to magic, it cures your magic). Within about five minutes of gameplay in the first major city you reach (Balmora).